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Info Eddy Wilson, Eastern Indigo purchase

CarolinaClassicDragons said:
Thanks Nick. Personally, I would never breed this snake. I have a lot more experience with bearded dragon breeding. I can tell you for sure that there is a genetic issue with tail "kinking" with the witblit gene. I just had to put a 100% het witblit male down due to this deformity. I had purchased this dragon with the intent to breed some visible wits. I know many stories just like this one. I have seen it myself with certain pairings. Hundreds of eggs incubated in one single laboratory grade incubator (so precise and accurate temp and humidity throughout chamber) at the same time and only one clutch has babies with deformed tails. It is indeed genetic with dragons. Why would it be different with snakes? Seems like the majority of the issues I hear/read about with indigos is also "south" of the vent (aka tail area).
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I understand the concern and conservative outlook on that.

It depends on the source/association. In the one instance with a particular gene for a morph of a particular species, it seems you have found a genetic root and I have zero reason to dispute that. However, it is independent of another scenario. See below.

I had often read back in my leopard gecko days that tail kinks were genetic. Same for some lacertids and some other species. So to find out for myself, I bred quite a few born kinked and born stub-tailed animals with each other from multiple sources. I got only offspring with normal tail characteristics. I even bred some of those offspring with their siblings or back to their parents. Still no kinks or stubs. I, too, mostly used laboratory-grade (Sanyo) incubators for these experiments.

I also did this with some irregular sand boas. Again, to find my own answers. Normal offspring. Obviously, there was no incubation here.

So I am not trying to say that this instance is not genetic, but I would be remiss if I concluded that it was, either. Test-breeding, as you and I have both seen, would yield the answers. If you hatch some indigo neonates with funky tails, then you would have your answer (and they could be sold or given away with full disclosure). If you hatched normal stuff, then you might have a different one and then the value in that would mean the individuals would not be removed from an already limited gene pool.

You have every right to look at this as conservatively as you feel about it, but there is some value (answers to questions and possibly helping the CB propagation of the species) to exploring the alternative at least a little.

However, to circle back, I believe if you want a full refund for this animal, then the seller should oblige you if you do not wish to use this animal as a breeder. In the event you did decide to explore the alternative I mentioned, then it would be reasonable for the seller to work with you (politely) on a partial refund due to imperfection relative to what you had been promised.
 
Thank you Tim. If Eddy decides to work with me on this, as he should have already, I will let you know. I don't even need the money all at once. I don't care if it took him a year!

All great points Nick! Now if I could only get you using Nuaire incubators over that Japanese brand you mentioned!
 
Dave, I have found with snakes, kinks aren't always genetic. I hatched out some carpet pythons, one was terribly kinked when it hatched (did not live) and 2 eggs never hatched; upon opening those eggs, those babies were also kinked. The 3 kinked eggs where in the same container as the others but further back in the incubator ... those kinked ones I attribute to incubation issues.

The injury/defect is old according to the vet, which in turn proves that the kinks were present when the indigo was in Eddy's possession. If he was an honorable man, he would at least refund half of your money.
 
I am happy it worked out, David.
And I'd venture a guess that blue or not, future purchases 'in person' are going to get a good going over from you. :)
 
I believe that everyone deserves a second chance when they try to right a wrong. These situations are always tough. I screwed up by not being diligent in inspecting this snake out more thoroughly when I received him. I got too caught up in the excitement of holding my first ever Eastern Indigo and placed too much trust in anyone that would be breeding such a species. Lessons learned.

[EDIT, text removed - belongs in the classifieds -AbsoluteApril]
 
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Snake-Queen said:
Dave, I have found with snakes, kinks aren't always genetic. I hatched out some carpet pythons, one was terribly kinked when it hatched (did not live) and 2 eggs never hatched; upon opening those eggs, those babies were also kinked. The 3 kinked eggs where in the same container as the others but further back in the incubator ... those kinked ones I attribute to incubation issues.

The injury/defect is old according to the vet, which in turn proves that the kinks were present when the indigo was in Eddy's possession. If he was an honorable man, he would at least refund half of your money.
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For most snakes, it's often not.

But this is definitely a noted problem in the drymarchon community. Ask anyone who's relatively familiar with the drymarchon scene and you will hear two things about eastern indigos... You have to watch out for kinking/scale deformities, and you also have to be aware that some of them end up "stumpy" and have strange short fat bodies and only grow so much... As if they are dwarfed. The theories vary with the common one being that it's due to their tiny captive gene pool (and they don't appear to be resilient to inbreeding like some reptiles) but regardless of WHY it happens, the kinking is a well known phenomenon with them.
 
I agree with everything Shannon said. You don't see these defects in the cribos where the genetics are more diverse due to WC imports. I've produced quite a few black tails and unicolors and have never seen a problem with any of them. I don't fault the Drymarchon breeders. They are doing their best with the limited breeding stock that's available.
Drymarchon incubation is not complicated...78F does the job so high incubation temps that would cause defects should never really be a factor.

I'm glad to see that Eddy was able to satisfy the OP.
 
gila7150 said:
I agree with everything Shannon said. You don't see these defects in the cribos where the genetics are more diverse due to WC imports. I've produced quite a few black tails and unicolors and have never seen a problem with any of them. I don't fault the Drymarchon breeders. They are doing their best with the limited breeding stock that's available.
Drymarchon incubation is not complicated...78F does the job so high incubation temps that would cause defects should never really be a factor.

I'm glad to see that Eddy was able to satisfy the OP.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought.

Apparently scale deformities have been showing up in cribos...a couple of people contacted me with photos showing paired scales where there should be no paired scales and vice versa...

As for faulting dry breeders...well, aren't they now breeding for different aesthetic preferences? Just sayin'....

A good topic for another thread.....I'll slap my own hand before April slaps it.
 
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