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Info Edwin Sanders - Dragon Fortress

Q

queenofice85

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Edwin Sanders
Dragon Fortress
dragonfortress.com
[email protected]
717-926-3610



I met Edwin at the March 21st Central Pennsylvania Reptile Expo and purchased two female hatchling Bearded Dragons. Edwin provided a written 30 day health guarantee and a hatch certificate for these lizards and provided a written receipt (I can get a friend to scan these items if it is required).


I have kept Dragons for eight years and am familiar with their care (I still have my very first Beardie, Xavier). When I noticed the smaller of the two females refusing to eat on April 4th, I called a friend to get advice and to evaluate my husbandry practices. It has been many years since I've had baby Dragons in the house, so I wanted to make sure everything was up to par. She reasurred me and suggested I give her a little longer to adjust and not worry too much.

I found the smallest Dragon dead on April 6th and immediately called Edwin. The second Dragon stopped eatting and died within 24 hours of the first. Below is an outline of the contact I have attempted to make with Dragon Fortress.




Break down of correspondence:

April 6th: Phone call made mid-afternoon about first deceased dragon, no answer, voicemail left. Edwin returned phone call around 6:30pm and spoke with my husband. I attempted to return the phone call to get more information, but again had to leave a voicemail.

April 7th: Phone call made mid-afternoon about second deceased dragon, no answer, voicemail left.

E-mail sent April 7th:

From: Kimberly Trone <[email protected]>

Date: Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Subject: baby bearded dragons
To: [email protected]

Hello, my name is Kimberly Whitney. I had called you on 4/6/09 because I wanted to talk to you about my one baby bd that died that day. You did return my phone call but you spoke to my husband not me, you had said about how you had gone to the Harver de Grace expo and did not quarentine your animals and that half of them died. I wanted to know how your animals were acting before they died and what exactly they had. I tried to call you back that night but you never returned my phone call so I called you again today 4/7/09 because the second baby that I bought from you has also just died. I am willing to give you the bodies of the dead bds, but I do want my $120 back, I do not want to exchange for new bds. I am willing to meet you half way somewhere because I do live in Hanover and I know your in Lancaster. Give me a call back and let me know please, thank you, 717-957-####.





I requested a refund as opposed to an exchange because of the information provided to my husband. I do not want to risk acquiring additional sick dragons which could potentially infect my 8 year old male. I have yet to get a response from Edwin since his initial phone conversation with my husband.

A friend can post and verify all of the above information. She was at the show with me and I also called her for advise when the dragons started acting ill and one how to handle this situation.

I do not wish at this time to label Edwin as a "Bad Guy." I hope this post encourages him to do the right thing and stand by his guarantee.
 
Just an FYI to everyone...I am the unnamed friend Kim mentioned in her post...



Also Kim, I forgot to tell you that you must post your full legal name on every post on the BOI or they will remove your posts. Sorry!
 
I just wanted to let everyone know that Edwin has contacted me today and he is willing to help me out on getting this issue straightened out.
 
Ouch... that sucks about the dragons... I wonder how many animals get sick from getting passed through reptile shows? I know last snake I bought at one came with mites even though we didn't see any when we inspected the animal!
 
I am again posting because Edwin has failed to provide a refund for the dead dragons. The emails may be a tad confusing because they reference discussions made on the phone. On April 16th, Edwin told me he would be providing a refund by the end of the week after a lot of excuses and complaints. When no refund was received by the first week of May, I emailed him on the 4th to see what was going on.



From: *Kimberly Whitney* <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Subject: refund
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Edwin,
Im just writing you to ask when and if you have sent out my refund for the 2 dead baby bd that I bought from you at the Carlisle Expo. I am giving you until tomorrow night to respond to this email and then I will be forced to futher this on the BOI. I feel that this has gone on too long and it needs to be taken care of now. Thank you.
Kimberly Whitney



When I received no response to this email, I attempted called on May 5th. This time he did answer and informed me that the refund was sent on May 1st. Keep in mind we are within a two hour drive of each other and a USPS letter would have taken no more then two days to arrive. He told me on the phone during this conversation that he would "check" on the money order and call me back within 15 minutes. Instead of a phone call, I received the following email.



From: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, May 5, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: refund
To: Kimberly Whitney <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>

I just got a computer to borrow, so I will be happy to communicate with
your through here from now on so my words arent twisted to make the story
fit what you want.

Kim, as explained before, I am not entitled to give you a refund or
replacement. You broke your end of the deal by throwing the dragons out
for no reason at all.

Please send me the info on where the money order was to be sent. It was
filed and I have to wait until my fiance gets back here to get it. If you
give me the address, it will make it a lot easier. Thanks

edwin

From: *Kimberly Whitney* <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Date: Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Subject: Refund
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Edwin,

Thank you for finally responding to my numerous attempts at contacting you. This has been going on for weeks and it really needs to be dealt with. If you can not guarantee your animals for 30 days, then don't offer it to your customers. You offered the guarantee, I have the paperwork, please follow through.

The dragons were thrown out because the first one you instructed me to put in the freezer (against the advise of Stephanie) and then later told me that a necropsy was unable to be performed on a frozen animal. The second one you instructed me to put in the fridge, however by the time you got back to me it was already two weeks after the death of the animal so I necropsy would have been impossible. I could not keep a rotting dragon in my fridge while I waited for you to step up to your guarantee. The nonsense about you doing your own necropsy's (that you stated over the phone) is ridiculous because you do not have the experience or knowledge to accurately diagnose anything. You had no knowledge of the Adeno Virus or Crypto, nor do you have the equipment necessary to do any type of testing. You also admitted multiple times on the phone that the vet your are using is not a qualified Exotics vet.

This whole deal has left a sour taste in my mouth. I just want my refund (which you have told me multiple times over the phone that it was going to be sent or has been sent) and to not have to deal with you any longer.

Your immediate attention is appreciated.

My address is ### #### ###### ###### #### ### Hanover PA 17331



To date I have not heard anything from him about the money order that was supposed to be sent.

All in all, this whole situation makes me sick. This is the first time I have ever had a situation like this happen and I am extremely disappointed in the outcome thus far. I don't know what else to do other then to provide the information I have and hope that Edwin eventually steps up to his commitments.


Kimberly Whitney
 
I have been hesitant about posting thus far, but now feel that I must. I bought 3 baby dragons from Edwin at the same show. A few things to note are that this deal was made with nothing more than a handshake, it was a wholesale deal, and I was picking up the dragons for my friends at "Pete's Pets" in NJ.

About a week after receiving the dragons, I received a call from Dawn over at the pet store who informed me that one of them had died. I told her of the guarantee and gave her cash back the next day assuming that I would be able to reach him and get reimbursed. Having lost his card, and due to the small amount, I chalked things up to just waiting untill the next time I see him to bring it up. I'll let the members here know how things turn out.

Edwin, if you read this, please understand that it is not worth the cost of those dragons to have one unhappy customer out there. As you know, I backed you up with the crazy lady (anyone who's been here remembers her), but this thread is not making you look good right now. Hopefully, you'll come here with your side. If not, I look forward to seeing you at the next show and seeing what happened. From a proffessional standpoint, though, make this right.

Good luck.
 
My experience

I traded Edwin 2 juvenile crested geckos for a baby bearded dragon at the last Carlisle show. From day one she never ate very well and after a couple of weeks, went downhill very quickly. She stopped eating completely and within 24 hours she passed away. I have not contacted Edwin regarding the situation and I am not expecting anything, I just wanted to share my personal experience.
 
I am responding as much as I can to this post right now. I am sick, and have not been well for the past couple days and am putting an office in place, so I apologize for any delays this week.
Since January I have I currently sold and or wholesaled over 100 dragons a month (400+). I have retained help and am currently putting that help in place. Right now I am moving a lot of things around, and trying to make an office area that will sufficiently allow me to handle customer orders, assistance, and in the rare event there is a complaint/animal death. So please bear with me while I do this.
Every company has policies in place to protect the seller and the buyer in the purchase of live animals.
Addressing the current issue:
Kim had left me a voice message and told me that a dragon had died that she purchased from me. When she realized the dragon was sick, and not eating, she chose to call her friend and get advice, whether the advice that was given was correct, or incorrect, I was never given the chance to back my animals with my guarantee. She left this up to someone else and I was only aware there was a problem after the animal was dead. I had spoken with her husband, after I received her message, and he told me that the dragon died and that they had bred dragons years earlier. I told him this could just be a normal part of life, and asked him if he had any other animals, what the cage set up was, and some other general questions. I explained to him why I asked him certain questions. I had explained to him that I had a problem, back in the beginning of January with some animals that I brought back from a show.
I currently am not experiencing any problems with any animals in stock. Thank God!
I told him that some animals can live with diseases that other animals can’t, so if he owns a snake or other animals and handles them one from to the other, one may live with it, but others cannot. I was trying to discover the reason the animal died, because at this point, the husband had agreed to keep the body of the dragon, and return it to me at the next Carlisle show in exchange for a new dragon.

I received a message from Kim towards the end of that week and she said the second dragon had died and that they wanted a refund. I had called Kim back and talked to her for quite some time. She had thought I sold her a sick animal because of the conversation I had with her husband when I told him I had some animals fall ill in January that I had brought back after a show. This could only have been a misinterpretation from when I was talking to her husband.
I explained to Kim that I could either replace the dragons for her, or that in this case I could offer her a refund for the dragons. I also told her that because of her loss, I could offer her three dragons instead of two. She said she wanted to talk it over with her husband and that she would call me back and let me know what they decide. She called me back and told me that she wanted a refund. I told her that was fine. She explained to me that she either wanted me to send it to her through PayPal, or through postal money order. I told her that I didn’t have a problem with that, and when I got back ( I was driving at the time) that I would call her and get her address and send her the refund through the postal money order because I do not have a PayPal account to send the refund through. I called her when I got back and wrote down the address that she gave me to send the refund. I then explained to her that I had no problem with sending the refund but that I would have to be able to recover the bodies of the dragons as agreed upon with her husband (and also written in the email that she posted above).. Kim stated she had "gotten rid of the bodies a couple days ago" I asked her why she would do this, especially since less than a week prior I had spoken to her husband and he had told me that he would keep them for me until the next Carlisle show, which is as of today May 8th, is still over a week away. I told her I had to call her back.
I called her back and explained the following:
I did this (had to call her back) because I am new to breeding and selling to customers, and I wanted to call and get the advice of other breeders, vendors, etc. on the correct way to handle the situation. Just about everyone that I talked to told me that because of the agreement, and the care sheets that I give all my customers and the problem with the disposal of the bodies, that I am not required to give any refund, or replacement to this customer because they did not follow the policy given to them. There is also no way for me to confirm or deny that the dragons are actually dead. For all I know, they could be alive and healthy somewhere. I am not making any accusations about anything towards anyone; however I have no animals to prove anything. Kim told me that because I told this to her husband(to keep the bodies) and she is the one that bought them from me, that it doesn’t matter what I told him, that I needed to tell her because he’s not part of the deal.
Perhaps... miscommunication? Regardless... I was told by a very respected breeder, and someone whose advice I take very seriously, that I should process the refund for a few reasons, although Kim voided the agreement by not following the instructions given to her on multiple occasions. I did send out the refund through the mail, I am trying to track the money order and because of the office move and illness have not handled it as quickly as I would have liked to. The Post Office confirmed the money order was not cashed, so I am willing to go through the refund process here and purchase another money order, it is possible I may have written the address wrong as I was trying to hurry. I will have office max scan and I will post proof of the refund today.
Further, with all due respect, I wish to do no further business with this specific customer. Kim- please, if you receive two refunds in the mail, as you are claiming you didn’t receive the first, you may not cash them both, you are only entitled to the second refund.
For future reference to all, if you are claiming that a dragon has died, you must make the body available to be recovered if a replacement or refund(solely my decision) will be given per Dragonfortress.com policy. All circumstances considered, I must retain the option to at least recover the body(s) to confirm conditions in any future circumstances.
You cannot go to any other pet store and just tell them that an animal died and you want your money back without producing the animal. You cannot go any retail store and tell them something broke and you want your money back or a new one, here’s my receipt but I threw away the merchandise. I hope this is understandable.
As for the other dragon, and any other dragon that is sick, falls sick, or is found to be not healthy in any way shape or form, during the agreed guarantee period of the animal, or the animal is not in the said condition during time of purchase, PLEASE contact me in order to receive a replacement animal, or refund, I retain the right to make that decision based on individual circumstances. You also must make the animal available to be recovered, and follow the care guide instructions received when purchasing the animal. I cannot care for the animal once it’s in your possession, so it is necessary for you to make sure you are following the instructions I give, again, with every animal purchase (with the exception of some wholesale lots ). Call me at any time for help instructions or care. If I am unavailable please leave a message. Again I am making office changes and improvements. Currently I am in a lower level where I get little to no reception. If you don’t leave a message, I won’t even know you called.
Thanks
Edwin 717-926-3610
New Office Phone Number -717-435-7441
 
I can personally verify that the dragons are dead and were dead on the dates provided.

Edwin, you must keep in mind that Kim was your customer, not her husband. All contact should have been made with her, not a 3rd party. Keeps things nice and neat with no miss-communication.

Being that two other individuals who purchased dragons from the same show from you have stepped up and posted their issues, I think it is apparent that the death of Kim's two had nothing to do with husbandry. Looking at your website, I don't recall a "DEALING WITH SICK ANIMALS AND GUARANTEE INFORMATION" section being there a week ago when I checked your website for a web guarantee?

Could you please post both money order receipts? Thanks! :)
 
Copy of money order as stated-

I was not aware that a husband is a third party. The wife had no problem with me talking to the husband up to the point of the animals being unavailable for me to recover, then it was my fault, not his. That fine. Up to the point of talking to the husband, I had only received a message from the wife stating that the bearded dragons had died. Since the husband was so knowledgeable about the situation, and since he is the husband, I have no reason to think that I shouldnt talk to him.

As far as multiple animals getting sick at the show, I wouldnt know what is or is not normal, but 4 animals is not even 10% of what I sold that day. They were handled by many people that day.

I feel that I stand behind my animals for a longer time period than most, and am very generous when it comes to replacing animals.

Heres your care sheet and guarantee. It does not appear that you even sell bearded dragons unless I am missing something, so how would your advice be relevant to Kim about my bearded dragons? This is from your site:


TME guarantees live, 100% healthy, and properly sexed animals. There is a 72 hour guarantee on all of the animals we sell (unless otherwise noted); if for any reason you are not satisfied, contact us immediately within the specified amount of time to get a credit or replacement at our discretion. Shipping is non-refundable. Freeze and photograph any deceased animals as we may need proof to verify any problems. If we do not hear from you in 72 hours, we will assume you are happy with your animals. Live arrival of healthy specimens is guaranteed as long as low temperatures are above 40 degrees F and high temperatures are below 90 degrees F at the receiver's address. The package must be signed for in order for our live arrival guarantee to apply. We are not responsible for shipping delays caused by Mother Nature or mechanical problems with the shipper, however, we will do everything in our power to locate a delayed package and get it moving on its way.
My website is updated often; terms have been given at the time of purchase.


The requested information on dealing with sick animals is on my website now, and is also given to my customers at time of purchase. It is also available to anyone on request at any time. Also, I was under the impression you needed to post your entire name, etc, when posting under the boi?

I have done what is required of me here. I am going to be posting the other money order receipt when I find it, and I am going to post a copy of fecal testing that came back normal around this time frame when I can get back to office max to scan it. Other than that I have no interest in getting into any squarrels with anyone here online. I am done posting, please contact me with any other questions, again, via telephone is the best. Thanks

Edwin
 
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Edwin, as I told you when I spoke to you with Kim at the Carlisle show (and as many know here on Fauna), I gave up 75% of my animals when I became pregnant with my son. Pointing out that I no longer have anything lizard related on my website is a bit silly and I don't really see where you're going with it. This thread however is not about me or my guarantee, but about you and your guarantee. If you are interested in my reputation, please feel free to search the BOI.

If you're pointing out to me about posting my full name on the BOI, look to the left of my post. If you're referring to Kim, she has since she's been told about it.

I can not read the receipt you posted. It's shrunk down and is unreadable. Please provide a legible copy and also provide a copy of the original you claim to have sent. If you can not provide the original, please provide the tracking number.

Thanks so much!
 
I just wanted to put up the care sheet that Edwin had given me at the show, nowhere in it does it say anything about having to keep the bodies of the dead bearded dragons. I would also like to request that Edwin put up a better picture of the first money order that he had sent out. However today I did receive a money order for my refund, which I am thankful for. Although I do not feel that I should have had to post onto the BOI just to get responses back from Edwin.
 
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Good to see he is making the effort to make good on his guarantee. Hopefully, these problems were an isolated incident. While I think thing could have been handled a little more smoothly, he has shown a willingness to correct any shortcomings. We've said over and over again that it's not whether or not a problem arises, but how it is handled.

Edwin has also taken the initiative to contact me about the baby that I had die. I'll let you all know how things turn out.
 
Just curious, a few people have said they bought dragons from Edwin that have died.

Have any pics of a dead dragon been posted by anyone as proof of this?
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
Obviously not in this thread, Ed. ;)
However this thread has pictures of dead dragons and describes his past shipping practices.
Click to expand...

That was from Feb 4th and the dragons in this thread are more than likely from a different clutch, I believe all the dragons in this thread were not shipped but picked up at a show?

I dont see any connection to the older thread.
 
I have received no pictures or proof of any dead dragons, I have received no bodies, nothing, just peoples word who do not give their friends the same advice as their own policy posted on their website.

I did make a mistake during shipping, and that was well established. I paid for the mistake that I made, and have not had any problems with shipping since then. Any and all dragons are replaced or will be replaced per policy agreements made at the time of purchase.

Please contact me at the numbers provided with any inquiries. This is the quickest way, and ensures you will reach me. Thanks

Edwin
 
Edwin, my guarantees and policies do not apply to your animals. I would never recommend to someone to follow my guarantees if they did not purchase from me. Everyone's policies are different. Yours is very different to mine, which is perfectly fine. What works for one person doesn't always work for another. ;)

I'm still interested in seeing proof of you sending out the first money order.
 
FYI - I saw Edwin at Hamburg over the weekend. As a vendor, I didn't get to wander around much, and didn't even notice him there, but he went out of his way to approach me in order to make good on his guarantee. Edwin sent me home with 2 dragons for the inconvenience despite the fact that I never pursued anything with him.
 
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