Evan Stahl Please pay me.

[evansnakes]

Lee vouched for his friend and then saw to it that I did not get paid. He aided somebody to steal from me. I know that for a fact. He then told me he would get me the money and when the guy came to the show, Lee told him "don't worry about it." He is a liar.

The city re-zoned Lee's property to get rid of his show. It was the cheapest way to solve the ongoing problems with him.

Lee, you allowed people to sell venomous animals and endangered animals at your show. You knew the animals came accross state lines with those dealers as you were also offered those animals. You did nothing about it. You sell venomous animals which is illegal in your state. You keep telling everyone you have permits that allow you to do so. The state and federal authorities have said there is no such condition out of a home. Even at your show, the state level herpetologist and enforcement officers that were there had a laundry list of violations. You dismiss them as misdemeanors but you hurt the state and the industry as a whole allowing people to break the law at your show and then defending them for doing it. It is fine if you dissagree with the state. Go fight them. You don't however allow dealers to sell illegal animals and you don't pretend it is ok.

I gave you cash at the show Lee. I did not give Gail anything. And I never "ran" out of your filthy show. I was always one of the last vendors to leave. Anyone that has ever been there knows that.

As for the sick albino rattlesnakes, you made a mistake. They were vet examined, diagnosed and frozen, then shown to a couple people that you will not badmouth on here or anywhere else Lee and they can verify you sold me sick animals that died. And they saw the dead animals in person. I could have lost many other animals from a very nasty virus they had if I had not put them in another room just in case. And I did not take them for free Lee. I paid you some of the money you wanted for those and even after I offered you the dead snakes and vet work-up as well as people you trsusted vouching for the fact that they were sick and were then dead, you still wanted to get paid for them. I never should have dealt with you again.

Oh, on the memory thing, I talked to you the night before the show Lee, because I was not sure if I was going or not and you wanted to know if I would be using my tables or not, and you had the monitor and told me about it. I came in the show in the morning before I set up to look at it.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This transaction is three years old?

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

Maybe it's just me, but if Lee had wanted his money so bad, he couldn't have posted this here, oh say, two years ago???!!!
I mean, some people have waited about a year to post grievances about deals gone sour and the best advice i see them getting is "too bad, you shouldn't have waited so long..."
If you can't whine to a dealer/breeder within a year of a "negative transaction", then you obviously don't deserve your money back, especially when you don't set and agreed on price-if you want to sell the blasted monitor for $1000, stick to your guns and don't settle for less, if you say "we'll see what happens" and the person sells it for less than what they paid you for it (years later i might add because it is in no way a desirable animal) Then you really don't have a case. Set a agreed on price, without it, you can't expect anymore than you originally get. If Lee felt the need to prove a point, he should have asked for the money within the time before Evan even sold the monitor, whether or not he needed the money.

 

[Griz]

I ran 24 shows a year with an average of
960 people thru the door. We averaged 1 DNR raid every 15 years with 16 misdemener tickets. These are facts not fiction like deadbeats would have you believe. Lee Watson

Lee, with all due respect, if you are going to make statements of fact, like you did above, then please make them harder to validate then this. Case in point:

Arrests Made at Reptile Show in Illinois
Law enforcement officials from the Illinois Department of Natural Resources, the Food and Drug Administration, the Illinois Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had been conducting a yearlong investigation into illegal reptile trade that climaxed at a “reptile swap” in mid September. Despite the raid, Lee Watson’s farm in Streamwood, the site of the swap for 12 years, has not been shut down. Some of the vendors were conducting legal trade, however, many were buying and selling protected species, unlicensed animals and undersized turtles. Illinois Conservation Police Investigator Michael Lyne said one man had more than 600 undersized turtles and was charged with “not having a license, not keeping records, commercialization of the resources and being over the limit. He was the worst in the number of turtles – but there were many others.” Lyne said that there is a 400 percent mark-up on baby turtles, which makes them a profitable venture. Fourteen vendors at the show were arrested, at least three more arrests are pending and 37 misdemeanor citations were issued. Source: Daily Herald, September 17, 2002."

At his one raid alone you had 37 citations written. Then you have this which occurred 8 years before the one above in which 40 citations were issued:

The Streamwood, IL Reptile Swap held monthly on the farm of long-time member Lee Watson was featured in a front page Chicago Tribune article on June 22, 1994. After detailing the hot market for exotic animals, the article stated that law-enforcement agents say that swaps are "the next phase of our investigation." They feel that there is an underground network of illicit animal traders. Last year 22 reptile vendors were charged with more than 40 violations, although most were misdemeanors. Fines ranged from $50 to $900 and one case remains to be settled. Watson was quoted "I though it was all a lot of bunk. That was the biggest travesty of justice I've ever seen." Enforcement agents felt they "could only scratch the surface in the six or seven months [they] were there." In addition a Department of Conservation official said that reptile trading in Streamwood is not currently being conducted because they were forced to turn to other cases. (Note: The Streamwood Swap Meet is not sponsored by or connected with the CHS in any way except that a lot of our members attend. EB)

And I am sure this is just scratching the surface.

Griz

 

[bamasmith]

I knew this thread was going to turn out like this.I back Evan and his business 100%.He is a stand-up guy.I do'nt know this Lee Watson,but I knew when I saw the title of this thread that it would turn in Evan's favor.I will continue to support him.I understand that Evan maybe should'nt have taken the animal with him knowing this dudes background.Evan was trying to help Lee out is the way I look at it.Some of you may say that Evan was wrong in accusing Lee of aiding this other guy that ripped him(Evan)off on the python.Well to me,Lee is showing his true colors.

 

[viridisnakes]

The swap

I think that the statements of filthy scum show are outrageous. I attended and sold at many of these shows. Yes. There were some things that could have been better. But to slam him over the show is rediculous. Lee offered a great opportunity for people to see and purchase everything from the worst wc crap to the best high dollar CB animals.

I am willing to bet the same whiners who are complaining about the show are the same guys who came twice a month. Feeders were cheap and admission was cheap. It was up to you to continue to support the low lifes selling cornsnakes telling people that they would eat apples (actually saw this happen there in the early 90s). It was not Lee's responsibilty to watch over every transaction at the show. I would bet many less than ethical transactions happen at the big shows too. It is our (herp community) lack of will to run these low lifes out of the business that is the cause, not Lee.

As far as Lee's ability to sell venomous. He is correct in Illinois, if you are liscensed by the USDA AWA, you are considered a zoo and are not bound by the state dangerous animals law. Now, if he was knowingly selling to people not allowed to have them such as "Illinois residents" that is another matter. And you have shown no proof of that.

As far as bad deals etc. It is impossible to sell animals on a monthly basis and not have issues. If you agreed on a price that is the deal, NOT what you decide later. Also you can't bring post deals into the mix, to get even.

This is a good lesson for all. Make the deal done ( paid in full) on the day of the transaction, or hold the animal back until paid. Get guarrantees or full price in writing.

Chris

 

[Jim O]

This thread may as well be in a reptile soap opera.

The issue of Lee Watson's show being in violation of laws is irrelevant to this thread, But if it were relevant, what were you doing selling there Evan? The show was good enough for you to peddle your wares for years and now all that time it was a piece of crap? And if you believed that venomous animals were strictly illegal in his state, why were you buying them from him? That reminds me of the scene from the movie Casablanca where the chief of police is "shocked" to find out that gambling is going on in Rick's Cafe, and then is handed his winnings. You can't have it both ways. If one is going to take the high road then one needs to take the high road.

Lee Watson called me and told me that he wanted to sell me a "baby" crocodile monitor. I immediately asked him how large it was as so many people call them babies when they are in fact quite large. So I told him that I would take a look at it when I came to his next show the following weekend (I used to be a vendor at many of his shows).

When I got to the show Lee showed me the animal and as I thought the case may be, it was very far from a baby and was in fact a large juvenile. Many months of size difference. Babies sell well and I had a customer for one, as I told Lee, this animal was too large to call a baby many many times over and I would see if he wanted it but did not think he would. I also told Lee that I would not pay nearly as much for the animal as it was not as described. At the time babies were selling for $1000 each, while animals the size of that one were worth half that.

But you took the animal voluntarily (or did he have a gun to your head?), paid him $115 and to date have not paid the balance. A deal is a deal. If you thought the animal was worth half of $1000, or $500, then buying it for $400 and making a 25% profit is not a bad deal. You gambled and lost. That doesn't change your obligation to pay what you owe.

Lee vouched for his friend and then saw to it that I did not get paid. He aided somebody to steal from me. I know that for a fact. He then told me he would get me the money and when the guy came to the show, Lee told him "don't worry about it." He is a liar.

Evan, you may be pretty well respected here, but even you need to provide some "proof" of this. Otherwise it's libelous. Care to enlighten the rest of us on how you "know that for a fact"?


And Lee, this is three years old. What have you done to collect during this time? Why bring it here now?


Bottom line. Here's another situation that should not have come to the BOI. Maybe the two parties ought to get together over the phone and settle this like grown men.

 

[ravensgait]

Seems to me that it doesn't matter if it was yesterday or last year if ya owe the money you owe the money. Don't know either of these guys but one says the other owes him money.. Evan said he took the animal and was going to sell it and pay later guess he never paid and he doesn't deny that he didn't pay.

Trying to trash someone you owe money to here(deserved or not) is pretty low in my book. Pay the guy and put this behind you before this gets to 50 pages and sits at the top of the BOI for a month or two. Randy

 

[Jim O]

People in this area know Watson's a scammer, this does not surprise me at all.

Brandon,

This may be true bit if you're going to make an accusation like this how about some facts?

And how about following the site's rules and giving your full name. Your posts will be deleted without it.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I don't feel that I have seen enough info to say with any certainty who owes who money, and for now it seems that the claim wouldn't have a prayer in court. Doesn't make it not valid, just that it seemed to really based more on people's word and honor, and not clearer evidence.

Three years is a long time. Maybe Lee was excessively patient on this one before going this public about it. Judging from a response that hurled mud at everything, my guess is that this claim and related animosities have not been inactive in the interim, just not posted here.

In complete agreement with you Randy on this one. Didn't know there was a statute of limitations on one's word or honor. Apparently there is in a couple of neighborhoods out there.

 

[Griz]

I don't feel that I have seen enough info to say with any certainty who owes who money, and for now it seems that the claim wouldn't have a prayer in court. Doesn't make it not valid, just that it seemed to really based more on people's word and honor, and not clearer evidence.

Three years is a long time. Maybe Lee was excessively patient on this one before going this public about it. Judging from a response that hurled mud at everything, my guess is that this claim and related animosities have not been inactive in the interim, just not posted here.

In complete agreement with you Randy on this one. Didn't know there was a statute of limitations on one's word or honor. Apparently there is in a couple of neighborhoods out there.

I agree that it's too early to take sides. However, the manner in which I read Evan's post, it appears that he made it clear to Lee that he would NOT be paying anything near the agreed upon price since the animal was much larger then advertised. If that is how it played out then it is both of their faults for not clearly outling what "we can take care of it later" meant.

What was the going rate for a large juvie monitor back then? I would say that would be a more than fair way to determine market value and what is owed. However, if Evan truly has proof that Lee helped pull off a scam on one of Evan's animals then that needs to be established first before any debt is paid.

Griz

 

[evansnakes]

Some clarifications.

It was not illegal for me to get venomous from Lee as I am not a resident of the state of Illinois and was not selling them or keeping them in Illinois.

As I said, the venomous exemption is for zoos, musuems, etc.. Not for the basement of your house.

I am not stating assumptions I was there for the times I am talking about.

Lee may have paid $400 for the lizard, but that is not what he charged me. I paid him at the time, what I thought the price of the animal was. As I said, I told him he would have to go lower for me to keep it. I offered it back to him. It took almost a year before I knew that he thought I owed him money. I thought it was a done deal.

I did Lee's show because I thought I was his friend and I was supporting his show. I never once shyed away from telling him that somebody was selling sick animals or had mites/ticks all over their animals. It was just myself and 3-4 other quality captive bred vendors that would always be vigilant about quality at that show. I did the show for the same reason all other vendors do all shows, money.

I stopped doing the show after the raid when so much of garbage that was going on came into the light of day. I want nothing to do with any of it.

Lee isn't doing this for the money. He is just trying to embarass me.

Everyone in the state of Illinois that keeps reptiles should thank Lee. Instead of working with authorities to make things doable for everyone like every other show promoter in the country, Lee has fought tooth and nail and now the state of Illinois will be getting very harsh restrictions on the pet trade due to this. Arrogance is all any of this is about.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Didn't know there was a statute of limitations on one's word or honor. Apparently there is in a couple of neighborhoods out there.

I don't believe anyone suggested anything along those lines. If Evan owes the money he should pay. After this much time, what one individual may recall about a deal may honestly be different from the other involved.

It does seem odd that both have been members and participants here for such a long time and this issue decided to sprout legs last night and walk to the BOI. Makes you wonder what prompted the thread.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dennis,
Without wasting time on cut-and-paste, both Randy and I read where some felt that the time interim diluted the basis of the claim. Maybe only he and I saw it. So let me help you out, solely from my own point of view:
If I believe that someone owes me $300 in 2003, and isn't addressing the debt, I will feel ill of their honor. If the same debt is still outstanding in 2006, and the circumstances unchanged, I will still feel ill of their honor, and feel legitimate in voicing such if I choose. The observation was aimed at those who felt the claim diminished.
That said, as with Griz, I don't know that Evan owes anything. I am glad the Evan is speaking more to the issue now, and a point he raises, if true, would be very significant to me regarding time-lines. He states now that the deal had been done a year before he was told that there was a problem. If that bears out, then that lapse of time would be significant and would greatly reduce the validity of the claim IMO.

 

[Chameleon Company]

In clarification, I did go back and read some posts again, and saw a post by Dennis that asked a very simple question about the age of this claim, with no comment otherwise. To Dennis, my comments about a statute of limitations on honor was not a reply to your initial post, but more as a rebuttal to the post of another which stated this in part:

If you (Lee) can't whine to a dealer/breeder within a year of a "negative transaction", then you obviously don't deserve your money back ....

That particular poster had no clue as to when this first became an issue between the entities involved, only that it was now posted here.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Thanks, for the clarification.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Some clarifications.

It was not illegal for me to get venomous from Lee as I am not a resident of the state of Illinois and was not selling them or keeping them in Illinois.

Not to be rude to you evan, and since i really dont know you ill make this short.

But woudlnt that be considered supporting an illegal trade, so youd just be helping this guy break the law...

anyway, i still feel that the money is owed. if you came upon an agreement with Lee, and took the animal from him and actually saw it in person before you paid, or had gotten it in shipment and looked at it, you owe him that money, no matter what was said afterwards. Honor this deal and move on from it. just never do business with this guy again.

 

[critical bill]

Confucius say....

Asian married couple cannot have white baby as two Wong's do not make a white.

HI-YA!!!!! KARATE CHOP!!!

 

[ravensgait]

Hey Chuck time ta check the dosage on the Meds there buddy. Remember take the red ones in the morning and the white ones in the afternoon get it backwards and well we see what happens ;0 Randy

 

[Junkyard]

I also would like to know why Lee decided this needed to be brought up now.

I was doing some looking around at prices of these animals to learn what their going rate is today and stumbled upon an old ad. I am curious as to why a juvenile crocodile monitor from Lee is only worth $115 three years ago, but the going rate was about $500? Yet a 2-2 1/2 year old is worth $1,000 two years ago? If that is the way the market is moving then I need to get into monitors. Looks like Lee undersold his monitor, once again Lee

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