Evan Stahl Please pay me.

[Seamus Haley]

I... think... although to be honest I am having some trouble sorting out some of the details... that Evan is saying two things. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong about what I thought I was reading.

The first being that various transactions between the two left Evan with the idea that he did not have an outstanding debt. Other animals, other transactions, things changing hands which would have cancelled out the balance that is being claimed he owed.

The second argument being a little more emotionally charged, claiming that bad blood grew between tham and the situation was better left dead by both parties. Picking scabs isn't healthy.

Can't really speak to the second one, but for the first- IF I was reading what he was trying to communicate correctly, an itemized list might be helpful as well as some details about who owned which transactions. Something along the lines of -$400 for the monitor, +$115 payment made in cash, +$XXX worth of some other animal, -$XXX for some other animals devlivered to a friend... Maybe line by line. If both guys can give a full detailed list of the financial transactions they percieved to be happening, it may help identify the specific transaction that one is attributing to the other which leaves this disputed balance. Ideally set forth in a straightforward manner rather than involuted back and forth posts that have as many insults and accusations as they do valid points. Seperate money owed from cracks about mud parking lots being sold for millions or unrelated animal citations and get to the meat of the issue.

I'm not saying either guy is right here... just that the legitimate content of the thread is potentially being burried by animosity and that it seems like Evan's defense (right or wrong, I'm not really sure) has been largely ignored, at least in part due to the way it was posted between hurling insults. It can't be analyzed and either accepted or rejected until it's been presented properly; once that happens it should be clear that either Evan is ducking a debt or that Lee is lying about one.

 

[bamasmith]

Evan,stop replying to this thread.It seems that Lee has.And let everyone else that this does not apply to gripe about it.There is enough mudslinging going on and some feel that this thread is to be used to attack others.As for paying Lee the money, that is up to Evan.And it would not be paid if this happened to me as Evan described.I still back Evan on this.Let this thread END!!!

 

[Lee Watson]

Foot in mouth disease

One day after not hearing from Evan for some time I received the following e-mail

Hi Lee and Gail. Hope all is good with you guys.I'm home buried in animal crap. You know how that goes. Hope you are ready to have me back in a couple months. Could you please add my website adress and email to the vender info on theswap website? It would be great if you could. Did that whole stupid prairie dog/monkey pox thing start with that guy in the front room? Pocket pets something? Evan
6/10/03 12:28:41 AM Central Daylight Time


My email back to Evan.

Phil's pocket pets started the wlhole monkey pox thing. He imported gambian rats and kept them with his prairie dogs, Infecting them, and they in turninfected humans.
Your web site, Etc is posted and up. Also could you send me a check for $285. that you still owe me? Then I can get you off my books.
Thanks Lee

Seems like 2 friends talking casually don't it?

This is the email I received in return.

You want your money so bad I will send it to you. Silly me, I have been busy and was not thinking of it. I did not realize how dire your finances were like all of us who are getting attacked by the government. I guess you only hire attorneys for everyone besides me. How about you explain to me why you were not capable of calling me and tellingme that instead of telling everyone you know what a thief and deadbeat I am. Did you think these people would not repeat what you said? Or is this what you wanted? Most of the peoplethat I have heard this s--t from are people that you have done nothing but complain to me about. I guess you areworried that I will steal less than $300. from you setting aside the thousands that you have gotten from me for tables, cages and animals over the past several years. Is that how this works now? Please do explain to me why you need to talk s--t about me.I would like you to help me understand it. I'd like to why you have had to put me down and s--t on my show the last couple years as well. what problem do you have with me Lee? How about bringing it to me instead of everyone else. Evan 7/3/03 3:09:20PM

Can you believe this came from the email above?
I did not answer this one because I believed Evan was at the point of derangement for some reason.

Then I received the following email.

Please send me your mailing info so that I can get your money to you. It would be nice for you to reply to my last email and apoligize to me for the nasty things that you have said about me to all these people. I am sorry that I have not paid youbut you must have known that I would. I always have. Spreading the kind of nasty things that you have has really upset me. I was also very disappointed to still be hearing about the dead rattlesnakes. They are still in my freezer. I will send them to you. Ihave not lost one venomous animal in all the time since then.
Evan 7/30/03 1:19:14AM

As you see he never denies oweing the money I just got tired of chaseing him around Tinley Pk. He has always face to face said he would pay me. At tinley this last show he said come back a little later and I'll have your money.But he was gone.

Anyway I'll say the hell with the money, Apparently he needs it more then I do.

This whole rag has been entertaining as I learned about a lot of things that I had no idea about. New friends Evan introduced me to. That scammed him.
I checked my vender lists and still have never heard of them.

To set the record straight I have never been arrested for anything I have a speeding ticket from 1992, Thats it. The 1994 raid as you called it did not happen at my swap. this was a pet shop sting and they went to known dealers homes. The raid in 2002 did happen at my swap the article you have said 68 tickets issued. But more then 1/2 were withdrawn as invalid before the court date and another 1/2 were withdrawn later. Example my wife received 2 tickets one was for breeding bearded dragons without a catfish breeders licence. The other was for not issueing receipts when she purchased fish from a commercial fisherman.Which of course never happened.

I received 13 tickets all withdrawn prior to court. This whole deal was such a fiasco and there were so many complaints filed that I like to beleive this had to do with the DNR budget cut. I believe there were 15 or 16 valid tickets most were "no fish dealers license" 1 venomous ticket. (DNR sold at swap to customer NOT VENDER) Nobody that the swap attorney represented
got a conviction.

I want to thank all the people that contributed opinions and facts. If anyone can come to me and rightfully and truthfully say I wronged them I would like the opportunity to correct it.

I know I was wrong to start this thread and I did it on a gentlemans bet with a few of Evans friends. I said if I put a polite request on the BOI what will I get? We all laughed and said Evan will come on and put his foot in his mouth. He will come up with so many reasons not to pay. and have all the lies to prove it. (in his mind)

I said I don't beleive it, I think He will come on and say "I have had a bad year and I need a little more time" Was I wrong.

Thanks again
Lee Watson

 

[Griz]

I know I was wrong to start this thread and I did it on a gentlemans bet with a few of Evans friends. I said if I put a polite request on the BOI what will I get? We all laughed and said Evan will come on and put his foot in his mouth. He will come up with so many reasons not to pay. and have all the lies to prove it. (in his mind)

I said I don't beleive it, I think He will come on and say "I have had a bad year and I need a little more time" Was I wrong. Thanks again LeeWatson

What a shame that after 70 years common sense still evades you. This thread will leave neither of you smelling like roses and if anything, is showcasing why a lot of people/vendors avoided your shows over the years.

Griz

 

[ravensgait]

Evan you said""Lee isn't doing this for the money. He is just trying to embarass me. ""
You seem to have done a good job of that here, he didn't have to help you much.

You also said this
"""Randy, how about you pay him the money since you owe it to him as much as I do! They are not excuses, they are real life examples of somebody that has screwed me out of money trying to still get more. And it ends now and is done. Do you think I will pay out money I do not owe because you tell me to? ""

Seems to me from what has been provided here that you owe the guy money. My name isn't Evan and I've never done a deal with Lee so can't say as I owe the guy any money. Sure doesn't seem to be ending and the way your going this will sit at the top of the BOI for a while.
Do you have any proof of these accusations that he ripped you off or helped someone else rip you off? If so show us? Start a new thread and lay out your evidence. If you don't have proof then why bring it up? It has nothing to do with your deal that Lee brought here.



I can't say I like the reasons Lee used to start this thread, come on a bet!! That's pretty lame. But it would seem that Evan owes you money and should do the right thing. Why you waited till now to bring this to the BOI is a good question, it sure seems that you did this just to embarrass the guy and he fell all over himself here to help you do just that. Randy

 

[Jim O]

Jim, what deal have I tried to back out of? I think you need to learn to read, comprehend and then go f*ck yourself! I paid for the other animal in full in the other thread if you recall!!!! I then did not receive it. How exactly was that backing out of a deal? This deal, I paid in full what I thought was the aggreed amount, then a year later the price goes up. I offered to give back the animal. I offered to sell it for what I could get and try to work it out. Nothing but extra cash I had not agreed to was good enough. Lee brought up the rattlesnakes so your are damn right I will respond and it is the same subject. Again, do you really think I will pay somebody money I do not owe because you tell me to? I will not ever give Lee one damn cent. He has lied to me, stolen from me and sold me sick animals that died! How the hell is that not relevant to this??? I do not care how many people read this.

Oh Evan, Evan, Evan. You should re-read that other thread and see that you did indeed ask to cancel that deal (which eventually went well for you) and that I (yes I) supported you. Because it was right. As for whether I think you will pay him because I tell you to, of course not. Maybe you are so pompous but I am not. I think you should pay him because it is the right thing to do. There's the difference.

Care to comment on the emails from 2003 that Lee posted in which you said:

You want your money so bad I will send it to you.

and

Please send me your mailing info so that I can get your money to you.

Seems you acknowledged the debt, however begrudgingly, and lied about your intentions to pay it. Or did you simply forget?

As for your anatomic suggestions, well there ya go Evan, losing your cool and making this personal. I think this speaks to your personality and anyone reading this will probably take home that Evan Stahl may be fine to do business with as long as he thinks he is right. But do not cross him because he won't come through as promised. And based on the emails, he may promise to make something right, but be lying and not come through. I think your fan club has declined in membership after seeing those emails.


Griz,

I agree neither smells like roses here and said as much in an earlier post in this thread. But one has to admit that Lee was right and Evan has lost his cool and really has done exactly as predicted. Your support for your friend is admirable but he acknowledged the debt three plus years ago, promised to pay, and reneged. That makes him the deadbeat here. Distracting from that very fact by putting blame on Lee and his shows doesn't change that. After all, Evan was only to happy to vend at those same shows.

 

[Griz]

Griz,

I agree neither smells like roses here and said as much in an earlier post in this thread. But one has to admit that Lee was right and Evan has lost his cool and really has done exactly as predicted. Your support for your friend is admirable but he acknowledged the debt three plus years ago, promised to pay, and reneged. That makes him the deadbeat here. Distracting from that very fact by putting blame on Lee and his shows doesn't change that. After all, Evan was only to happy to vend at those same shows.

You're reading a little too much into my posts. And, as is blatantly obvious from the various posts here, the train of thought is wide spread on what each person believes the case may or may not be. Here is how I am interpreting the situation:

1) Evan and Lee enter into a transaction whereby the final price was not clearly outlined. However, assuming Lee's emails are true, Evan did agree to cough up the extra $285 to end the dispute.

2) Evan, although proof still needs to be presented, was involved in 2 separate situations with Lee whereby Evan was on the losing end. According to Evan, he is out close to $2000 due to the thefts that Lee helped perpetrate.

Assuming that #2 is correct, then I, too, would tell Lee to take a flying leap off of the nearest bridge. BUT, until such time that credible proof is offered regarding situation #2, AND assuming that emails Lee posted are true, then I agree that the $285 needs to be paid.

I won't ever blindly support anyone regardless of whether I call them friend. A true friend will have the conviction to call his friend out if need be. However, I do my very best to read into each post and try to ascertain the authors intent. Lee has the tendency to embellish, exaggerate and otherwise distort reality to fit his needs. So, naturally I will view his posts with skepticism. As proven by my initial posts, not all that Lee stated is the truth. Therefore, I think any person will be inclined to believe that his art of embellishment will bleed over into other situations. Hence my skepticism. Which leads me to this:

Evan, only you know what proof is out there pertaining to the other allegations you have made. To truly support your claim here you need to post some of that evidence. To me, $285 is but a small price to pay to end something like this. However, that's pretty easy for me to say since it's not my money. This board, and your countless number of clientele, know you to be a man of your word. We know you to do the right thing. There is something comforting in that thought. So, if you don't have the evidence to put on this board then my advice is to either pay the debt and be done with it or to simply move on (see PS).

Griz

PS Regardless of the BOI, there are times when the evidence cannot, due to whatever circumstance, be forthcoming. It is at that moment in time when you have to decide who do you trust more. I live in Illinois and I know some of the stories I have heard. I have seen some things first hand that disturbed me about Lee's shows. I know who will receive my benefit of the doubt.

 

[shrap]

Thank you Bob!! Summed up my feelings to a T in every aspect of your post.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hmmmmmmm.

Lee has the tendency to embellish, exaggerate and otherwise distort reality to fit his needs.

Perhaps based on other experiences, but within this thread, I don't believe Lee had any such monopoly on the above ! To at least a few of us, all this extraneous babble about Lee's shows, the pettiness of raising the issue of raids on Lee's shows 5-10 years ago .... as if raids only happened at Lee's shows ...... has zero to do with the money issues between Lee and Evan. Making allegations that someone is a crook, and aided and abetted a thief ..... I believe that serious enough to rate a "put up or shut up" to the accuser.

 

[Griz]

Hmmmmmmm.



Perhaps based on other experiences, but within this thread, I don't believe Lee had any such monopoly on the above ! To at least a few of us, all this extraneous babble about Lee's shows, the pettiness of raising the issue of raids on Lee's shows 5-10 years ago .... as if raids only happened at Lee's shows ...... has zero to do with the money issues between Lee and Evan. Making allegations that someone is a crook, and aided and abetted a thief ..... I believe that serious enough to rate a "put up or shut up" to the accuser.

Jim, as you have elected to do on several occasions, at some point you have to sit back and decide, who do I believe more? If the situation involved individuals that you knew outside of the specific scenario then I am positive that you would be utilizing more then just what was mentioned in the thread to formulate your opinions. Thus the reasoning behind my stance and a solid one at that.

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Griz,
I don't have any problem with the reasoning process that you use, and just about every one of us would import everything that we knew about someone when deciding who to believe. Paraphrasing here, but knowing someone as a jerk, and using that as a basis for an opinion in a debate as to who is right or wrong, is different from posting here "he's a jerk", which doesn't speak to the facts for the rest of us, and is frankly nauseous at times.

Admittedly, if Chris Johnson or Ray Torres came here crying that someone owed them $300, they would be howled off the stage, and woe be the devil's advocate who tried to help them make their case ..... I believe I am familiar with that role BTW I feel comfortable saying that in the eyes of many, Lee has enough good-standing to make his claim, with at least a few of us expecting a debate within the parameters of whatever money issues may exist between Evan and Lee. All these other superfluous allegations and mud-slingings are not enhancing Evan's position, IMMHO. In my take on it all, only Evan and Lee know whether Evan "owe's" the money within a broader context, not to be confused with my belief that Evan should have paid it back when he acknowledged begrudgingly that he did owe it. IMMHO again, in this thread, Evan, not Lee, was Evan's own worst enemy.

 

[ravensgait]

Opinions-- we all have them but we also need to go by what has been posted here.
Lee has said he is owed money by Evan and Evan has said he didn't pay more that the $115.00 for an animal it appears he was trying to sell for a $1000.00. If the emails Lee provided are correct then Evan knew he owed the $285.00.

Evan instead of saying my bad and taking care of it has slammed Lee and even accused him (without proof) of stealing for him and other actions. Evan threads like this are why Rich said he loosened the rules here so people can show their true selves which you have done. That bullet wound in your foot must hurt!

Not knowing either party here if I was looking to do business with either one, after reading this thread I'd have to say no way to buying from Evan and do some real research on Lee before giving him money.
Randy

 

[Griz]

In my take on it all, only Evan and Lee know whether Evan "owe's" the money within a broader context, not to be confused with my belief that Evan should have paid it back when he acknowledged begrudgingly that he did owe it. IMMHO again, in this thread, Evan, not Lee, was Evan's own worst enemy.

I could not agree more. AND it is the very reason why I made the comment that the benefit of the doubt, for me anyways, will be given to Evan. Unfortunately, there is the train of thought that suggests that all proof has to be verifiable to this forum. Unfortunately, many times due to situations beyond one's control, this is not the case. Confidentiality, among other things, are catalysts for such stances. Evan may not be able to "prove" to this forum that Lee helped perpetuate the thefts against him. However, that lack of "verifiable forum proof" should not be a factor in Evans decision to pay Lee back.

With that being said, if Evan has the proof to post then he should do just that. But, Evan's reputation precedes him by a long enough margin that I accept him at his word regarding this situation.

A man would be a fool to not take into consideration all mitigating factors in trying to determine which side of this fence they should sit on, wouldn't they? Thus the fallacy of the BOI. Not every situation can be resolved nor fully explained to the overall satisfaction of this board. Sometimes telling the BOI to "screw itself" is still "doing the right and ethical thing," don't you think?

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Griz,
I believe that I am in 110% agreement with your above post , except to distinguish that while you have a relationship with Evan which allows you to put more credence in what he says, and judge both entities beyond the context of this thread, I can't make the same assumptions as I do not know either. I do know several folks, though, who know Lee very well, and swear by him, not at him.

 

[Griz]

Griz,
I believe that I am in 110% agreement with your above post , except to distinguish that while you have a relationship with Evan which allows you to put more credence in what he says, and judge both entities beyond the context of this thread, I can't make the same assumptions as I do not know either. I do know several folks, though, who know Lee very well, and swear by him, not at him.

Then I think it's best that everyone allows these two to do their own thing off this board. Will it be worked out? That's up to them but for anyone on this board to believe that they can make a rational and sound judgement based upon what has been provided here, especially regarding a situation from 3 years ago, is naive at best.

Just leave things alone people and allow these two to get back to their own business. As Lee has clearly stated, it's not about the money. This was done on a dare so if he is placing so little importance upon this situation then I believe that speaks volumes regarding the amount of time we put into it. It won't be resolved here thus some things are best left alone.

Griz

 

[Jim O]

Then I think it's best that everyone allows these two to do their own thing off this board. Will it be worked out? That's up to them but for anyone on this board to believe that they can make a rational and sound judgement based upon what has been provided here, especially regarding a situation from 3 years ago, is naive at best.

Just leave things alone people and allow these two to get back to their own business. As Lee has clearly stated, it's not about the money. This was done on a dare so if he is placing so little importance upon this situation then I believe that speaks volumes regarding the amount of time we put into it. It won't be resolved here thus some things are best left alone.

Griz

I agree with this, but then I said it in post #27, long before the "on a bet" post by Lee.

Bottom line. Here's another situation that should not have come to the BOI. Maybe the two parties ought to get together over the phone and settle this like grown men.

Of course an assumption that they were two grown men (or even that one of them was) may have been giving way too much credit on my part.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Okay, can you boyz please Stop the madness I think we have read enough to know that this situation will not work itself out!! I mean common this stuff is three years old and they have not found a common resolution? Give me a break already! When will it end!!!! And let me make it clear that I have no vested interst in either one of the men that this thread has to do with. So call it a draw and lets move on shall we???

 

[evansnakes]

I find it very funny that people in this thread and on this site really feel free to make assumptions about things based on only their opinions with no facts to support them.

In Lee's emails, I see nothing but evidence that backs up exactly what I said took place. Everything I have said, I said then, years ago, to him. Why would you assume the money mentioned in the emails is about the monitor? Why would you assume that when I mentioned the dead rattlesnakes it would not have had something to do with that deal? I told him I would pay him because I thought we were friends and he was pressuring me to pay him. Once I heard all the smack he was talking about me my opinion of him changed. Once my vet told me it was a virus that killed the snakes, My opinion of owing him money changed. Then for some mysterious reason he refused to accept his dead snakes back and insisted to people that I had his snakes and was lying about them being dead, even though I paid money towards them and a good mutual friend of ours was holding the dead animals and telling Lee that they were his (he was there when I got them and saw them again at my house) and had not done well for me since day one and that I had proof of that in writing from my vet who had examined one for me. And as I said, I communicated to Lee repeatedly that they were not doing well and that I was not happy with them.

It was assumed when I said retic that it was an albino somebody posted. That is untrue.

It was assumed because I had a croc moinitor on the classifieds that it was the one I got from Lee, even though I had over 20 of them baby to large adult back then, and as I said in a previous statement, the animal I got from Lee I kept for over two years before I gave it to a local friend in trade. So let's see, 2003+2=2005. So again, another wrong assumption.

If I am making up stories about Lee's behavior now, why would my statements mirror private comments I made to him 3 years ago? It doesn't make sense. Lee is putting up the OJ defense but his emails are saying exactly what I have already said in this thread.

On this site there are hudreds of statements of people that have done business with me, be it buying from me, selling to me or trading, on the forum, on the BOI and in trader ratings, who have been very pleased with their dealings with me. If somebody wants to judge me based on attacks in this thread by people who do not know me and have never done business with me but think they know what happened 3-5 years ago in Chicago, then there is not much I am going to be able to do about that no matter what I say here since you have done nothing but attack me based on nothing but asumptions and suppositions.

1)Lee sold me sick animals that died. He knows they died and was offered the bodies and the information. He declined it. Now he says I cheated him even though he kept my money and wanted more for the dead animals.

2)Lee helped John Urban, who by the way I never said was a vendor, but mentioned specifically that he was a customer, take an animal from me and not pay me for it. You have known him for many years as a buyer at your show Lee. You would always comment about how pretty a blonde wife he had and hit on her.

3)Lee and I had a misunderstanding about a monitor. I offered it back. I offered to sell it for what it was worth in the market for him. I gave him money (not $115). We talked about it several times, I thought it was a resolved issue. Now it is a big thing 3 years later.

If somebody wants to drag this thread on for years and keep it up here, I could care a less and will not have anything new to say. It was all 3-5 years ago and I do not save emails forever or tape record private conversations, so how I would have evidence of this is just insane.

The statement Jim made about me trying to back out of a deal is also classic. I paid for an animal. The seller refused to ship it as agreed. I came to this board to try to protect my $3500 investment and guys like Jim say I am trying to back out of a deal? That is just classic. Funny, even the seller admitted I paid him and because of the thread made right on the deal. This is why even the founder of this website doesn't want to do this aymore. People who have nothing better to do than just lie, create their own facts and post whatever they want in response to things they know nothing about. Rich and I have talked about it and I agree with him. It is just old.

That's it, I am out, I am done. This is a dead issue that I will not waste any more energy on. Lee is a man who will break laws and lie for money. He got all he is going to get from me. Anyone that chooses to believe what they want instead of what is here in writing, knock yourselves out. It is not worth me being stressed over what you think when you are not willing to acknowledge my side of the story.

Bob, I appreciate what you have said here and what you have tried to do. But they will just now give you crap because you do not aggree with them. It isn't worth the arguments.

 

[Chameleon Company]

You can lead a horse to water .......

 

[critical bill]

I told him I would pay him because I thought we were friends and he was pressuring me to pay him. Once I heard all the smack he was talking about me my opinion of him changed.

It would seem that not only did your opinion of him change, but also your commitment to settle the outstanding debt.

Anyone that chooses to believe what they want instead of what is here in writing, knock yourselves out.

What could you expect people to believe while reading quotes like the ones from you I've attached up above? From what you wrote it would tend to lead some folks to believe you only pay back friends that talk nicely about you.

I'll say again that I really think you're a nice guy and I wouldn't hesitate doing business with you. But you might lose some sales that total far more than the chump change Lee has requested..and all as a result of your stance on this. I think thats what everyone in favor of seeing Lee get paid has been trying to point out to you.