Bad Guy Evan Stahl - Sent Me Sick Pine Snakes

[Black Adder]

I sold Chris a very large adult Mexican Pine a few weeks ago.
He came across as a buyer who knew wheat he wanted and was doing as he asked all the right questions and displayed a great attitude during and after the purchases.
Pine snakes are among the most hardy north american colubrids you can keep and usually pretty tough critters to kill as they do not stress easily or are fazed by humidty and temperature swings much.
Most will take your fingers off at feeding time if you let them.
That being said if there was any inherent illness present not much is going to save them.
As previous poster pointed out it is all well and good asking for necrposy etc but the financial reality is that the cost is not feasible in a lot of situations.
Not defending anybody here just stating modern day reality, not everybody has a vet to hand who even has a clue when it comes to reptiles.

IF I ever get a regurge with my guys I wait 2 weeks before attempting to refeed to let the stomach acids rebuild so they can properly digest the next meal and then it is usually 1 or 2 prey sizes reduced.
Now as these were baby snakes, 2 weeks would definitely be the longest you could wait as they have no body mass or reserves to live off while fasting.

Good luck with the remaining pine.

 

[cbaker81]

You are exactly right about the cost and the fact that the vets in my area are reptile illiterate.

I also hate throwing good money after bad. These guys never had the health/vigor my other babies display.

Evan stated that he had these snakes in his care for months before sending them to me, but when I received them they were as small as newly hatched southerns.

"They were produced by an excellent breeder and were fed by him multiple times. I then held them here and they ate weekly on frozen thawed fuzzy mice for almost two months before i sold them"

There is no way these 2 snakes were eating fuzzy mice for 2 months before coming to me! I would think 2 months of no growth with such large meals would maybe be an indicator to an experienced seller that there is an issue.

I fed the female and gave her another does of flagyl on the 1st. She has kept down the meal and pooped out some runny/smelly grayness that was from the meal before. This morning I observed here drinking water as well. Maybe she is on the right path now.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Threads like this one make me wonder why anyone would bother to share their experience. This OP just posted a review of his experience and said he was dissatisfied with his purchase. He didn’t request a refund or make any demands of the seller in his post.
He's immediately confronted by a couple posters questioning his husbandry and declaring that if the snake has parasites it is due to his poor husbandry, improper quarantine, etc. That is followed up with statements that he should have got a necropsy and he should have taken the animal to the vet immediately.

If you're going to make a declarative statement like "THIS PERSON SENT ME SICK SNAKES" then you should expect to have to back up that assertion through facts, evidence and background info.

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

People need to realize that when they post a "bad guy" thread, it's taken very seriously. Arbitration by peers is what happens here, whether you want it or not. It's in the best interest of all parties, as most people who post in these threads are neutral, and can decide fairly who is responsible in a "bad guy" thread.

Evidence, such as photographs and transcripts of conversation between buyer and seller are expected in "bad guy" threads, as such a thread is considered a black mark on a seller's reputation. Otherwise anyone could make a thread and harm somebody's reputation, even if it was untrue.

In the reptile community, your reputation is one of your most important assets. That is why these threads are treated so seriously.

 

[Snake-Queen]

He's immediately confronted by a couple posters questioning his husbandry and declaring that if the snake has parasites it is due to his poor husbandry, improper quarantine, etc.

I was the first to mention husbandry & I did not question it.

That is followed up with statements that he should have got a necropsy and he should have taken the animal to the vet immediately.
The cost of the necropsy and the cost of a vet visit including an exam, fecal flotation, fecal direct smear test and meds would have far exceeded the cost of these snakes.

A fecal can be done by any vet & is usually under $30. The animal does not need to be seen.

Since the OP was also told that he should have fasted the snakes for weeks he probably would need to pay for a cloacal wash as well in order to get stool for a diagnosis.

Fasting is the appropriate procedure for a regurgitation. A fecal can be done when the animal defecates.



-----

OP, thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[JaydRaines]

Here are a couple images of the frozen male.

I am not asking for arbitration by the peers here nor did I request my money back from Evan.

I am simply posting my experience and opinion of the transaction and the health of the snakes.

The facts that both snakes are/were going through the same symptoms while the environmental factors remain perfect and the exact same as my other baby pines who are all thriving point to illness.

I have 18 pines in my collection currently and have never experienced anything like this. They are usually greedy pigs who grow like weeds.

For Evan tell me to treat the snakes for disease with Flagyl, sight unseen and with so little data, throws up red flags for me.

I did not post this to argue with Evan or to spend all my days in this forum. I have been a fauna member since 2005 and I have not ever had to post a negative review of a seller/company before.

Is that large bulge in the photo from a meal before dieing? If not, that is a pretty characteristic visual symptom of crypto, which also causes chronic regurge and death. There is no treatment available and is highly contagious.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[gila7150]

I was the first to mention husbandry & I did not question it.

You didn't but another poster did.

A fecal can be done by any vet & is usually under $30. The animal does not need to be seen.

Some veterinarians may be willing to do this but a direct smear test may be required in addition to a flotation to diagnose protozoan infection. If you can get both of those tests done for under $30 than that is a great deal and prices have dropped since I was a vet tech in the mid 90's. If the test is positive, most veterinarians will want to examine and weigh an animal before prescribing Flagyl.

If you're going to make a declarative statement like "THIS PERSON SENT ME SICK SNAKES" then you should expect to have to back up that assertion through facts, evidence and background info.

I see your point but this poster would never be able to prove anything. If he had paid for a necropsy and fecal tests out of his own pocket there would still be people posting saying that he needed to prove that the animals had the infection before they were shipped. The title probably should have been more neutral but I don't have any problem with him describing the transaction as he saw it.
I do think that the photo of the dead snake does not look like a healthy pine snake that was fed several times by the breeder and then fed weekly fuzzies by the seller for a couple months. I think most people who have kept and bred pines would come to a similar conclusion.

Is that large bulge in the photo from a meal before dieing? If not, that is a pretty characteristic visual symptom of crypto, which also causes chronic regurge and death.

If the snake had a mid-body bulge while it was still alive I would agree that it is a concern but that may just be bloating from decomposition. I only mention that because these threads seem to get absolutely out of control anytime the word "crypto" is mentioned and it could unfairly attach a stigma to the seller and OP that may not be warranted.

 

[bcr229]

If the snake had a mid-body bulge while it was still alive I would agree that it is a concern but that may just be bloating from decomposition. I only mention that because these threads seem to get absolutely out of control anytime the word "crypto" is mentioned and it could unfairly attach a stigma to the seller and OP that may not be warranted.

Agreed. Even if the snake was frozen it can still be checked for parasites, including crypto, and the OP may want to do that just to rule it out for his own peace of mind.

 

[JimM]

Y
I fed the female and gave her another does of flagyl on the 1st. She has kept down the meal and pooped out some runny/smelly grayness that was from the meal before. This morning I observed here drinking water as well. Maybe she is on the right path now.

What did she weigh and what dose of Flagyl did you give her ?

 

[Chris Kennard]

If you're going to make a declarative statement like "THIS PERSON SENT ME SICK SNAKES" then you should expect to have to back up that assertion through facts, evidence and background info.

 

[DavidBeard]

I wanted to post my experience with Evan Stahl Reptiles since his reviews are turned off on his facebook business page and I would also like any suggestions you may have for getting this girl back on track.

I'm confused.....you make statements like the one above yet seem extremely flippant and closed-minded to many of the suggestions offered by experienced members here.

If you're not a novice to Pine Snakes, why are you making novice mistakes by feeding a snake that has recently regurgitated so soon? If you've been a member here since 2005 then surely you know how to use the search feature on the BOI. You might've saved yourself a headache by doing so prior to making this purchase.

 

[TomC]

I've kept and bred pines/gophers for years. Some pine/gophers are notorious for regurge. Once they get into this cycle it's difficult to come out of. I have a 4 foot het pied black pine that can only take small fuzzy rats. Anything larger he will regurge. This has been going on for years. And just a clarification. The flagyl that was recommended is NOT for parasites. Flagyl (metronidazole) is an excellent medication for anaerobic bacteria (most intestinal bacteria). When the temps are not perfect or the meal is too large and an animal goes into a regurge cycle that you can not break, a dose of flagyl will reduce the concentration of intestinal flora and hopefully settle the animal's gut.

 

[Lucille]

I did not post this to argue with Evan or to spend all my days in this forum..

And you do not have to do either. If reader's opinions/questions counter your basic assertions, you are not required to make an appearance and discuss, but not doing so affects your credibility.

There is a solid minority of BOI posts where the OP presents his/her complaint and follows up with the admonishment to readers not to question anything, 'it's true because I said so, no discussion needed'.

That directive doesn't work here.

The buyer received the snakes and confirmed that he was happy with them

There is no way these 2 snakes were eating fuzzy mice for 2 months before coming to me! I would think 2 months of no growth with such large meals would maybe be an indicator to an experienced seller that there is an issue.

And an indicator to a experienced buyer/keeper as well, but Evan says you said you were happy with them and did not contact him further until the male had died.

Evan do you have an email you could post where the OP says he was happy with the critters on receipt?

I also hate throwing good money after bad.

Well, they are living things.

If you were unable to afford vet care, and you wrote to Evan a month after purchase and after one snake had died, why didn't you take his advice?
And I think had you come here earlier to ask advice on regarding snakes at the time you claim the regurge first took place, there are many who would have been happy to help you and given advice based on experience and you may have positively affected the outcome.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I really don't think any resolution is likely to be made at this point, but I would like to offer some insight to future dealings.

Seller should be made aware of ANY concerns as soon as the animals are received, especially with hatchlings. If they seemed weak, small, malnourished, lethargic, etc., the buyer has no recourse unless it is communicated clearly upon receipt. If both snakes had gone on to thrive, a follow up email is just as easy to send. Seeing as they did not, a clear communication chain would be helpful and much more likely to elicit a resolution.

To those so strongly advocating bringing a weak hatchling colubrid to "a vet", I would echo previous posters is stating that the vast majority of veterinarians are ignorant and inexperienced at best when it comes to reptiles. I have had need in the past to bring animals in for care, and even under the best of circumstances, I was directing the care and educating the staff in many cases. Even experienced "reptile vets" have been a disappointment in my past experience. I know there are some good ones out there, but with the exception of a necropsy, a veterinary visit is certainly not the course of action I would have taken with such a fragile specimen.

Just my $.02.

 

[Black Adder]

I really don't think any resolution is likely to be made at this point, but I would like to offer some insight to future dealings.

Seller should be made aware of ANY concerns as soon as the animals are received, especially with hatchlings. If they seemed weak, small, malnourished, lethargic, etc., the buyer has no recourse unless it is communicated clearly upon receipt. If both snakes had gone on to thrive, a follow up email is just as easy to send. Seeing as they did not, a clear communication chain would be helpful and much more likely to elicit a resolution.

To those so strongly advocating bringing a weak hatchling colubrid to "a vet", I would echo previous posters is stating that the vast majority of veterinarians are ignorant and inexperienced at best when it comes to reptiles. I have had need in the past to bring animals in for care, and even under the best of circumstances, I was directing the care and educating the staff in many cases. Even experienced "reptile vets" have been a disappointment in my past experience. I know there are some good ones out there, but with the exception of a necropsy, a veterinary visit is certainly not the course of action I would have taken with such a fragile specimen.

Just my $.02.

Exactly this!

 

[Chris Kennard]

I should have done more homework first

Yes. You've been on this site for over ten years? Homework is important. Over ten years on this site and surely more years of experience with reptiles than you introduction to Fauna, I would think that your homework would have saved a snake no matter what homework you did here.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I'm confused.....you make statements like the one above yet seem extremely flippant and closed-minded to many of the suggestions offered by experienced members here.

If you're not a novice to Pine Snakes, why are you making novice mistakes by feeding a snake that has recently regurgitated so soon? If you've been a member here since 2005 then surely you know how to use the search feature on the BOI. You might've saved yourself a headache by doing so prior to making this purchase.

Y

 

[evansnakes]

 

[evansnakes]

I can not the image to work on my phone. Could i email it to somebody and have you post it?

 

[Snake-Queen]

Evan's image