Bad Guy Fire and Ice Dragons (Terri Sommella)

[deborahbroadus]

James,

Perhaps I overlooked it, but I don't recall either Konstantin or myself suggesting that Terri should ship an animal that the buyer does not want.

My suggestion to her was to refund the man and cut him loose.

I don't know how all the above ties in to my care of animals?

Perhaps we are reading the same post from different perspectives?

In Post 8 the OP admits he was wrong to post (partly because he found no support perhaps?)

Then in Post 12...he finds support and conjecture to feed his fears/or primary motivation for creating this thread in the first place in the opinions of another dragon breeder and it was ON...off to the races! No facts, at that point, it's mostly imagination and supposition and imputing motives (I am also guilty of that).

Post 16 tried to insert the voice of reason and was ignored....

Then we got into she has sold his animal, she has sick animals, she's holding his money ransom..she doesn't care for her animals, and this is a business that's been operating probably longer than any of us here, AND can command those kinds of prices without having to deal with the whinners that don't recognize quality and would prefer cheap? They must be doing SOMETHING right.

Is everyone wrong, of course not. I am very aware that we all read through our own internal garbage (including me) and it takes time and skill to remain impartial and listen to the FACTS only, not our feelings.

This thread has degraded into a bunch of people "believing" and "feeling" and "supposing" but there's very little substance to support any of those feelings.

In a nutshell, should she ship the animal? NO. Simply because the customer no longer wants it. But, I do see conjectures that the OP would ship the same animal back. Should I jump to the conclusion that he would? I see it suggested.

 

[aleria]

And yet through all of this back and forth bs between a select few of you my post posing an actual question to Terri from yesterday morning that might actually contribute some relevant information to this whole situation is lost yet again.

Some of you sit here and complain that all of this is nothing but conjecture and supposition, well if that's the case then get off your and ask some relevant questions to find the truth through proof from either the OP or Terri rather than coming up with nothing but more maybes and guesses to argue against everyone else.

 

[deborahbroadus]

And yet through all of this back and forth bs between a select few of you my post posing an actual question to Terri from yesterday morning that might actually contribute some relevant information to this whole situation is lost yet again.

Some of you sit here and complain that all of this is nothing but conjecture and supposition, well if that's the case then get off your and ask some relevant questions to find the truth through proof from either the OP or Terri rather than coming up with nothing but more maybes and guesses to argue against everyone else.

There are no questions to ask, this thread should not have been here and should not have gone on as long as it did. The OP stated in the beginning that he was WRONG. It was only when his fears were fed that this thread took off and the rest of the other "select few" ran with it.

Both of them contradicted themselves. Why should Terri be singled out? There is no case. It seems to be more a matter of Buyer's Remorse; he has not been ripped off. The BOI is supposed to be an assistance for buyers that are in bad deals or conned or assistance with shady sellers, he has NOT proved that Terri is any of the above.

 

[aleria]

*sigh* And that was exactly my point Deborah, neither of them have posted enough proof for anyone to make any solid decisions here. Which is exactly what I asked for in my previous post, proof from EITHER the OP or Terri of the statements being made by Terri about why her TOS applies to this particular transaction as she is the one that decided to use that as her reason for refusing to refund the OP's money when he clearly stated that he no longer wishes to wait for the dragon.

 

[mxracer4life]

There are no questions to ask, this thread should not have been here and should not have gone on as long as it did. The OP stated in the beginning that he was WRONG. It was only when his fears were fed that this thread took off and the rest of the other "select few" ran with it.

Both of them contradicted themselves. Why should Terri be singled out? There is no case. It seems to be more a matter of Buyer's Remorse; he has not been ripped off. The BOI is supposed to be an assistance for buyers that are in bad deals or conned or assistance with shady sellers, he has NOT proved that Terri is any of the above.

 

[spyder79]

*sigh* And that was exactly my point Deborah, neither of them have posted enough proof for anyone to make any solid decisions here. Which is exactly what I asked for in my previous post, proof from EITHER the OP or Terri of the statements being made by Terri about why her TOS applies to this particular transaction as she is the one that decided to use that as her reason for refusing to refund the OP's money when he clearly stated that he no longer wishes to wait for the dragon.

Actually I think most people mainly have a problem with the fact that Fire and Ice basically demanded that the animal be shipped to the buyer than shipped back immediately for the buyer to get a refund. That shows a lack of consideration for the animal and I think everyone sees that. The OP even offered to eat both shipping fee's from the money he gave Fire and Ice (essentially giving Fire and Ice 100 dollars for nothing). But that was apparently not accepted. Fire and Ice are giving that dragon a high likliehood of passing away due to extreme stress brought on by shipping back to back like that. This entire situation is sad and Fire and Ice is going to end up winning and feeling all good about themselves cause (at least I hope) no person that truly cares about the safety and health of an animal is going to receive it, open it, inspect it, seal it back up, and re-ship it. That is pure cruelty.

 

[aleria]

Actually I think most people mainly have a problem with the fact that Fire and Ice basically demanded that the animal be shipped to the buyer than shipped back immediately for the buyer to get a refund. That shows a lack of consideration for the animal and I think everyone sees that. The OP even offered to eat both shipping fee's from the money he gave Fire and Ice (essentially giving Fire and Ice 100 dollars for nothing). But that was apparently not accepted. Fire and Ice are giving that dragon a high likliehood of passing away due to extreme stress brought on by shipping back to back like that. This entire situation is sad and Fire and Ice is going to end up winning and feeling all good about themselves cause (at least I hope) no person that truly cares about the safety and health of an animal is going to receive it, open it, inspect it, seal it back up, and re-ship it. That is pure cruelty.

The post you quoted was not in reference to that part of this at all. But yes, I am also one that agrees that this is a problem, and also made a post previously to that affect.

 

[spyder79]

Actually yes it did. The post I quoted you said neither have shown proof of this thread being warranted but at this point with the decision the seller made this post is deffinately warranted. As with most others I felt this thread was very premature right up until the point that Fire and Ice started spouting off about what they were going to force to happen. So yes the post I quoted was the right onw thanks.

 

[aleria]

neither of them have posted enough proof for anyone to make any solid decisions here.

Actually yes it did. The post I quoted you said neither have shown proof of this thread being warranted but at this point with the decision the seller made this post is deffinately warranted. As with most others I felt this thread was very premature right up until the point that Fire and Ice started spouting off about what they were going to force to happen. So yes the post I quoted was the right onw thanks.

If that is the line you are referring to it does not say "there isn't enough proof for this thread to be warranted", it doesn't even come close to saying that. If I need to put it another way then fine, neither of them have posted enough proof to show exactly why he decided to back out (buyers remorse, extended wait time, not getting a dragon from the clutch he was supposed to). Both of them made claims that things were said between the two of them that lead to the OP's decision to ask for a refund instead, and in response to my earlier request for proof of what was being said the OP even responded stating that he was going through his email's to find the relevant ones to post.
Is my response clear enough there?

 

[Abby]

The problem is that the buyer wants a refund, and the seller won't issue one because of her TOS. Their deal doesn't fall into a "Special Order" category. She won't even provide pictures. I'm sorry, but the animal in question is the OP's animal now, so if he wants to see pictures in shed or not he should be provided pictures. He owns bearded dragons, I'm sure he knows what a shedding beardie looks like. I'm sure he doesn't expect the dragon to look dazzling in shed. If a seller had my money and refused to send pictures when I wanted pictures, I would want a refund too. That raises some red flags to me.

She should've told him upfront that it was a special order if it was, or specified on her website within the TOS that pre-ordering is considered a special order. I don't think that would be considered a special order to anyone considering he did not request her to do that specific breeding for him, it was already planned and she must've been advertising on her site that she would be offering the babies for sale once they hatched. Maybe I'm missing something, but Terri's TOS and her insistance that the way she is treating her customer is fair is WRONG.

Whether or not the BOI thread was warranted is purely a matter of opinion. Maybe it should have been an Info thread. Either way it is here and it shouldn't change how people treat their customers. Terri could've issued a refund easily and come out of this looking much better than she does right now. I know she is definitely on my "Do not buy" list both because of her lack of consideration for the animal, her customer, her faulty TOS and the constant change of reasoning behind why she won't issue a refund. Not to mention the photos on her website. I think this post IS useful, because it shows how Terri handles this sort of situation. All the proof you need is in her posts on this thread. I thought the thread was posted too early, but in the end it has served it's purpose - to inform others of how a seller conducts business.

 

[chamgirl99471]

I completely agree with you! If you have read her other threads on here she seems to like delaying getting pictures of individual dragons for people. If I purchased an expected dragon and it hatched out, I would want to see pictures of the clutch as well as a picture of the dragon being held for me. The OP shouldn't have to wait to get a picture of "His" Dragon just because Terri says it's in shed, the OP said he didn't care and just wanted to see the dragon she's holding for him. In My Opinion.. Not an unreasonable request! This and the fact that Terri kept changing her excuses as to why she wasn't shipping said dragon contributed to Josh changing his mind and just wanting a Refund. I myself would be a little suspicious as well but that's just my opinion. I think that Terri has cemented her heals to the floor so I don't see much of a resolution besides Josh getting a Dragon he truly doesn't want at this time.

If he truly wanted just the money, I don't think he would be offering to take a $100 loss on such a cause.

Just my .02

 

[Iraqvet]

*sigh* And that was exactly my point Deborah, neither of them have posted enough proof for anyone to make any solid decisions here. Which is exactly what I asked for in my previous post, proof from EITHER the OP or Terri of the statements being made by Terri about why her TOS applies to this particular transaction as she is the one that decided to use that as her reason for refusing to refund the OP's money when he clearly stated that he no longer wishes to wait for the dragon.

I agree..It also looks like they did have some conversations over the phone..I think some of those are gonna be the reason why its a he said she said game..I think fire and ice needs to get SCREENSHOTS of the emails they got so we can confirm what they say..Not copies of emails..It seems like they wrote the ones that came from the OP..Either way,I dont care though...They have shown they take adavntage of newer people in this hobby..I am sure if the OP asked more questions from them maybe this wouldnt have happend..Then again if they would have explained their tos to him instead of just taking his money,maybe we wouldnt be here..Even if the OP changed his mind every hour,I still fault fire and ice...Their lack of trying to make someone happy besides themselves..Their lack of care for animals..And for being on one high horse cause they think they are sombodies who feel like they can make up their rules as they go...

 

[Omnomnami]

I have no idea why some people are complaining about how the buyer (Josh) changed his mind so many times. From what I've read it seems like she had no problem with him changing his mind (that's before he posted the thread). Buyers change their minds. The fact is that you get a sale still from a very interested buyer in the end and if you're a lot of help or compose yourself good you might get a good review!

So how is he being unreasonable or a 'bad' buyer? He stuck through it on his part, selected the unhatched baby, and now he just has reason to believe she is screwing around with him. And honestly I wouldn't mind at all if someone changed their mind and wanted a refund seeming as you could turn around and resell the dragon. No big deal. I know it's a waste of time but wouldn't you rather find the perfect home for one of your baby dragons? I would.

I might have more patience than some people but I would stick right by my customer while he/she makes up thier mind when choosing a dragon. I find it fun. It feels almost like Christmas all over again when you get a new beardie. It puts a smile on my face knowing that I just sold someone their first beardie or sold one as a gift to someones family member. It's called a hobby. I take pride in it. Looks like F&I runs a full blown business and can spare a couple dead beardies.

I'm surprised a mod hasn't stepped in yet. The picking apart of peoples threads is getting ridiculous.

-Nichole

 

[joshjtd]

"You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood up for something, sometime in your life."

By your own definition though, wouldn't that make you a whiner for standing up for something?

Terri has changed her stories multiple times. I have posted facts of which she had no reply to. If you look at her posts, she directly dodges a majority of my posts.

 

[Omnomnami]

By your own definition though, wouldn't that make you a whiner for standing up for something?

Terri has changed her stories multiple times. I have posted facts of which she had no reply to. If you look at her posts, she directly dodges a majority of my posts.

Looks like she's dodging everyone's questions and concerns. Maybe she's avoiding the whole thread itself. That just shows people how she can't handle conducting her business when something bad happens. It will drag on and on and on and more people will steer clear of her.

 

[joshjtd]

I have accepted that it is what it is. I can see from Terri's responses that she has no intention of resolving this in a professional manner. I had given Terri two days to respond and multiple avenues of communication. I have moved forward with the actions I had stated earlier.

In the even that the dragon has shipped before another resolution is found, I will keep the dragon as I really do not want the animal to suffer. I also really have my doubts that if the dragon was returned, I would get any type of refund. If the dragon is in good health, I will not seek and type of refund out of the deal but will still want this transaction on record for her. I am not out to get something for nothing here.

I have full intention of doing video documentation in the even that the animal does ship.

As I stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I would that anyone with common sense could see where the issue is in this whole ordeal.

 

[joshjtd]

Speculation.
Show me where it says that it has been sold.
Thats the whole problem with all of you. The fantasies and conspiracy theories run so deep that the kind folks of fauna, in the midst of their crusades cant separate the facts from fiction.

Then they all jump on the same opinion bandwagon, feeling better by the post for joining the mob and going after somebody.

And for the record, a refund isnt warranted, but credit with Fire and Ice might be. That dude changes his mind too much.


1- this thread was unwarranted
2- by posting this thread, the OP was whining about something that never happened [ he didnt get taken for money ]


I wouldnt agree. I think their business has "Fire and Ice" written all over them, and from what I gather they do just fine when theyre not dealing with [ x ]

X= people that cant make up their mind

Just a couple of errors in this post. Point number 1 is your opinion which you are entitled to. Point number 2 has yet to be proven. I guess if I had adopted her business model, wouldnt it make sense to mark each dragon in the clutch, take pics of the clutch as a whole and then take pictures of the selected dragon and email them to the customer? By her selecting the dragon, I am forced to take her word that it is "holdback quality". I have been requesting pics since day one. As of date, I have gotten 0.

 

[Iraqvet]

I have accepted that it is what it is. I can see from Terri's responses that she has no intention of resolving this in a professional manner. I had given Terri two days to respond and multiple avenues of communication. I have moved forward with the actions I had stated earlier.

In the even that the dragon has shipped before another resolution is found, I will keep the dragon as I really do not want the animal to suffer. I also really have my doubts that if the dragon was returned, I would get any type of refund. If the dragon is in good health, I will not seek and type of refund out of the deal but will still want this transaction on record for her. I am not out to get something for nothing here.

I have full intention of doing video documentation in the even that the animal does ship.

As I stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I would that anyone with common sense could see where the issue is in this whole ordeal.

I would get into contact with you local ASPCA officer as well...We all will know she wants to ship it so she can say it came back sick,and therefore not give you a refund..You just gave her the green light to ship it..Now she knows she is goinna ship it and not find a resolution..People like her are the reason I feel bad for this community..We are all way to nice..The bad people need booted from being involved with this hobby..Aninals and people should not suffer at fire and ice's will cause thats what they think they are allowed to do...

 

[joshjtd]

I would get into contact with you local ASPCA officer as well...We all will know she wants to ship it so she can say it came back sick,and therefore not give you a refund..You just gave her the green light to ship it..Now she knows she is goinna ship it and not find a resolution..People like her are the reason I feel bad for this community..We are all way to nice..The bad people need booted from being involved with this hobby..Aninals and people should not suffer at fire and ice's will cause thats what they think they are allowed to do...

I was trying to hold my cards close to my chest on this one, but at the same time, I didn't want to give off the appearance that I am trying to get a refund AND the dragon. My other concerns are that if I did ship the dragon back, the dragon would not survive and I would be where I am at right now (no money and no dragon). If she was not willing to accept the last offer of a $250 refund ($50 for her shipping cost and $50 for my cost to ship it back), I really have no reason to believe that she would issue any type of refund in the event that the animal did survive the back and forth. The dragon should not suffer because of a dispute between two people.

As I stated previously, I will get video documentation on the whole deal. I have learned a valuable lesson here and will not make the same mistake again.

As for Terri, people have seen how she conducts business. They can make their own opinions and decide if they want to do business with her or not.

 

[joshjtd]

I have accepted that it is what it is. I can see from Terri's responses that she has no intention of resolving this in a professional manner. I had given Terri two days to respond and multiple avenues of communication. I have moved forward with the actions I had stated earlier.

In the even that the dragon has shipped before another resolution is found, I will keep the dragon as I really do not want the animal to suffer. I also really have my doubts that if the dragon was returned, I would get any type of refund. If the dragon is in good health, I will not seek and type of refund out of the deal but will still want this transaction on record for her. I am not out to get something for nothing here.

I have full intention of doing video documentation in the even that the animal does ship.

As I stated before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I would that anyone with common sense could see where the issue is in this whole ordeal.

Also before the is taken as me changing my mind again, a refund is still the more favorable resolution. The only reason I even made the above statement was to put folks mind at ease that I will not be risking a life over $$$. My kids will still eat, I will still make my house payment, and still be able to live the lifestyle I am used to without a refund. I do not wish un-neccessary death of an animal for something like this.