first baby with the craziest pattern for me...BIG downside though

[Golden Gate Geckos]

agreed

I think this info should be talked about to let others that are new to all of this that it is not all great when you breed animals...... There will be plenty of hard times and problems.....

I agree, Gregg. I don't think Leopard Gecko breeding is a easy or financially lucrative as many people think, especially if we are going to be caring and ethical breeders.

 

[Gregg M]

Thats my quote Marcia.... LOL

 

[KelliH]

Dan, first of all I am very sorry about your hatchling. I know how upsetting that can be. Last season was a bad one for me in terms of deformities, infertile eggs, full term deads etc. I changed the way I supplemented for this season and wow. It has really made a huge difference. I have only had 3 or 4 deformities out of hundreds of hatchlings, and about that many eggs go bad during incubation. Zero full term dead babies.

I am 100% sure the problems I have had in previous seasons was a direct result of the way I supplemented my geckos. It was not from inbreeding.

So I would ask those of you that are having problems these questions: What are you using for calcium and vitamin supplementation? What are you using to gut load your mealworms and/or superworms? Also, what substrate and how wet are you incubating your eggs (I know, unrelated but I am curious)?

Maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[A_Kendergirl]

I am 100% sure the problems I have had in previous seasons was a direct result of the way I supplemented my geckos. It was not from inbreeding.

What exactly did you change about the way you were supplementing?

 

[Manhattan Herps]

marcia, thanks for the kind words, i never thought for a second that breedling any herp would be a bed of roses, however i did not expect it to be so hellish for me this season.

kelli, thanks for the kind words also

i used repcal with vitamin d3 earlier in the season (dec-march) now i use rep cal straight calcium and offer vionate weekly, i gutload the mealworms with carrot, sweet potato, collared greens, escarole,mustard greens, cucumber, zuccini and yellow squash, thats been the recipe for the last 3 years, probably going to change soon, i plan on buying some of codys gutload very soon

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Do you use certified organic vegetables? Maybe that is part of the problem. Many pesticides used by farmers have horrible effects on egg bearers. Just a thought.

 

[leaftail]

Do you use certified organic vegetables? Maybe that is part of the problem. Many pesticides used by farmers have horrible effects on egg bearers. Just a thought.

This is true. Residual pesticides apparently can cause birth defects and infertility problems in herps. I researched it online a while back but please don't ask me for details because I lost em in a hard drive crash... :deer:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

uh oh...

Do you use certified organic vegetables? Maybe that is part of the problem.

Organic vegetables are grown in manure, which can be very high in nitrogen AND bacteria. Veggies should always be washed before feeding them to anything... even bugs.

I am 100% sure the problems I have had in previous seasons was a direct result of the way I supplemented my geckos.

I have a very strong hunch that is what's going on with some of my problems, too. More than half of my losses this year are directly connected with a double power failure and 30% of my breeding stock being new, but there is definitely something else going on with the rest. I do not inbreed, so that's not the problem with my geckos... and I have been extremely careful in choosing my new breeder stock from reputable breeders and NOT gecko mills.

Last year, I switched from my normal regimen of RepCal calcium w/VitD and Herptivite to the T-Rex Sandfire Leopard Gecko Dust, and had ZERO fertile eggs for over 2 months until I switched back! This year is the first year I have used Vionate in my gutload, and I strongly suspect that is what's going on. It is the only thing I have done differently from previous years. The next time I change products/regimens, I am going to use a 'control' group and NOT switch all of my colonies at once!

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Interesting stuff about the supplements! I wonder what other people have experienced.

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

Going back to what Marcia was saying about how any person could get a few geckos and breed them and label themselves a breeder. Shucks... thats me!! lol... not really though. I am new to the game true. But I have taken care since I decided that I would like to move from the realm of pet owner to pet MAKER to have a game plan in place. I sat down and figured out if I really want to do this, if I could handle it, if I knew what I was getting into, and if I really wanted the responsibility of finding homes for the animals I brought into the world.

The answer to all those questions was yes in my case. I then went further and decided exactly what I wanted to breed, what was going to be interesting to me and to others, what would be lucritive on all fronts.

I researched and read all the info I could, asked questions on forums, set up a site to attract other breeders and hobbiests. In short, I made sure I had done my homework. Now, being a newbie I have made mistakes. And yup... I'll make a few more as well I am sure....

BUT....

In all that research and study and reading and forum searching I have found a depressing amount of "OMG I have eggs! What do I do??" and "I just got another 4 normals and now I have over 50 eggs in the incubator" and " If I get another 5 geckos I'll have more than the next guy" statements. I have seen pics of breeders that would make you cry, I have read posts about people feeding thier gravid females 8 mealies a day. Basically.... people who are dangerous, to themselves,to thier animals and to the breeding community as a whole.

Not really on the topic,but Marcias statements hit a chord with me.

Interesting on the supps and the difference they make. I look forward to hearing more on this, even more interesting to me is the fact that you really need to be aware of all aspects of the geckos world, right down to the food that goes into the geckos food. I have been using filtered water and organic veggies, non-processed grains and stuff as food for my feeders basically because that what we have in the house. Never even occoured to me that pesticides and such on some vegs would hurt my geckos....DOH....

 

[USAGECKOS]

First off, Dan, I am so sorry for your loss, that would have been a gorgeous Leo, but keep your head up, and think positive for the rest of the eggs

I have had a lot of infertile eggs, and a few deformities, all eye lid deformities. It is very heartbreaking to see the babies born like that, and watch them suffer.

I blame a few things on these problems, first and mostly is my incubator just won't keep a constant temp, and its only my female incubator, all my males hatched out perfect, so I can be sure that the incubator is the problem. I am going to have someone build me an incubator out of a cooler, if I can find someone handy enough...LOL

Also, most of my females are first year breeders, so I blame the infertile eggs on that.

 

[Manhattan Herps]

thanks jeanne

my female incubator blows also, i'v only had 3 infertile eggs so far out of at least 60 eggs, but earlier in the season my female incubator shorted out and i ended up losing about 20 eggs, my male incubator works just fine except for that deformed baby, i have a new female incubator coming.

about the organic veggies, no i dont use them, i know about the manure situation

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

scary stuff

Going back to what Marcia was saying about how any person could get a few geckos and breed them and label themselves a breeder --- In all that research and study and reading and forum searching I have found a depressing amount of "OMG I have eggs! What do I do??" and "I just got another 4 normals and now I have over 50 eggs in the incubator" and " If I get another 5 geckos I'll have more than the next guy" statements. I have seen pics of breeders that would make you cry, I have read posts about people feeding thier gravid females 8 mealies a day. Basically.... people who are dangerous, to themselves,to thier animals and to the breeding community as a whole.

Cory, this is what I am referring to, and there are people on this very forum that claim to be breeders that won't even use a proper incubator for their eggs and therefore produce deformed babies... and a few that claim to be experts that won't even bother to get a gecko treated for parasites. You are right, these are the ones that are dangerous to the Leopard Gecko community.

I have been breeding for over 10 years, and am still at a loss when these failures occur. I continually try to network with other breeders and experts to learn more about "new and improved" methods of caring for my geckos, and I'm sure I drive my vet crazy with questions. To me, it is apparent when breeders truly care about the animals themselves and don't consider them inventory items. I think this is where we might be seeing the potential for birth defects and weakened animals from excessive inbreeding... when these breeders are more interested in making money and are in such a hurry to produce offspring that they cut corners by not allowing the gene pool to become diverse by outcrossing, or not taking the time to provide optimum husbandry or nutrition for their animals.

I honestly don't know if we are actually seeing more problems (I know I am), or if people are just more willing to be open enough to discuss them without fear of having a hard-earned reputation trashed because we don't have a 99% hatch rate, or be forthright enough to admit we don't always know what we might be doing wrong. At any rate, I am grateful for this forum and it's members as a platform that can foster the sharing of information and provide support for each other!

 

[g&mgeckos]

I honestly don't know if we are actually seeing more problems (I know I am), or if people are just more willing to be open enough to discuss them without fear of having a hard-earned reputation trashed because we don't have a 99% hatch rate, or be forthright enough to admit we don't always know what we might be doing wrong. At any rate, I am grateful for this forum and it's members as a platform that can foster the sharing of information and provide support for each other!

Marcia, I just wanted to tell you I and several other"newbie breeders ' are very grateful to you and several other veteran breeders here to share your triumphs and problems with. As "newbies" it really is valuable information that you could never put a price on. I have personally kept reptiles for the last 15 years but really only tried breeding for the last year. I have an enormous library of reptile books and magazines experience "keeping" sereval different reptiles and I still learn something new all the time. I think it is one of the things that keeps me interested. And I do think there is a big difference in "keeping" and breeding reptiles.

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

Marcia, I just wanted to tell you I and several other"newbie breeders ' are very grateful to you and several other veteran breeders here to share your triumphs and problems with. As "newbies" it really is valuable information that you could never put a price on.

I have been VERY lucky have had a mentor in my formative period in Jason over at Capital City Geckos. He has been an amazing asset to me and has always been there to answer any question I might have, no matter how mundane or complicated it is. You are 100% correct in saying this is the kind of help and insight that you could NEVER put a price on.

I've read this thread with interest, as I am sure many have, and like others I can't help but wonder if there is an actual increase in "bad" breeding outcomes or an increase in the honest reporting of said incidents. I must be honest, prior to a few threads recently here I only knew of one deformity, granted I am so new at this I'm still squeaky, but I am glad that I am hearing of problems with even the most experienced breeders. When my first clutch of fat tail eggs went bad around 30 days in I was overcome with guilt because I felt I must have done something wrong. In reading this, I see that even the most experienced and capable breeder can have problems with even seasoned animals. And while I still strive to insure that I am doing everything I can to make my success, and my geckos success, as high as it can be, it was nice to know that sometimes these things happen.

It will be interesting to watch this progress over the coming seasons, where we may see if it is something something going wrong with the species as a whole due to inbreeding or if this season just seems to be an anomaly.

 

[aliceinwl]

Last year, I switched from my normal regimen of RepCal calcium w/VitD and Herptivite to the T-Rex Sandfire Leopard Gecko Dust, and had ZERO fertile eggs for over 2 months until I switched back! This year is the first year I have used Vionate in my gutload, and I strongly suspect that is what's going on. It is the only thing I have done differently from previous years. The next time I change products/regimens, I am going to use a 'control' group and NOT switch all of my colonies at once!

Marcia, what's your current feeling on the use of Rep-cal with Vit D?

This year out of 14 hatches 2 have eyelid defects and one had to be euthanised because it lacked eyelids. Before last year, I hatched out virtually no deformities, and neither of the two deformities (minor tail kink, and spinal abnormality) had to be euthanised. Last year I blamed a temperature spike in my incubator, I still think that this accounted for a lot of my egg deaths but I'm now wondering if something else was going on that caused the eyelid defects.

Prior to last year (my first year with significant amounts of deformities), some inbreeding was going on in most of my breeding groups, crickets gutlaoded with crushed cat and dog food, fish flakes and assorted veggies were the staple, the crickets were dusted with rep-cal with vit D and herptivite at every feeding. In terms of incubators, for the first 3 years or so, the eggs were just incubated in a container in tank. The temperature fluctuations occurring in this set up seemed to pose no problem. Year 4 I got a hova-bator, but it was only used for males. Year 5 I got a second hova-bator for females.

Last year I switched to mealworms gutloaded with oats, bran, dog kibble, various cereals, and veggies. I cut back on herptivite, to about every couple of weeks. This year, I started out doing pretty much the same. After the first deformities, I started using herptivite at every feeding again. I also picked up some rep-cal without vitamin D3. I also broke up all the father daughter pairings.

Should I start using the rep-cal without vitamin D3 instead? I heard a public radio broadcast talking about vitamin D3. The said that the amount added in milk was almost insignificant when compared to how much was synthesized by the body after a few minutes in the sun. They also said that vitamin D3 was important enough that getting enough through sun exposure could out weigh the skin cancer risk. This got me thinking, if a leo were to emerge at dusk, would it start synthesizing D3, how much would they synthesize, how much do they need? I've been using it for a number of years now with no problems, should I change? All the groups producing the deformities are relatively new, so I don't think accumulation is an issue.

-Alice

 

[KelliH]

I'm not Marcia but I will tell you that since switching to Rep Cal with no D3 I have had a fantastic season this year. Yes our geckos need Vitamin D3, but I don't think they need as much as previously thought. I use the D3 free Rep Cal, and I also offer Vionate a couple times a month. Vionate does have some D3 in it. Does Herptivite contain D3, I can't remember?

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

Marcia...

I'm not 100% sure if it does or not, but I know they suggest using it in conjunction with a calcium + D3 supplement on the webpage....

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

opps...not Marcia.... Kelli.... sorry about that.... bit adled today, just set a wedding date...lol

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

VitD

Marcia, what's your current feeling on the use of Rep-cal with Vit D? --- Should I start using the rep-cal without vitamin D3 instead?

Alice, according to my Vet (who is also a reptile nutritionist that uses Miner-All indoor), captive nocturnal herps need the Vitamin D because they are not getting it from their natural environment. What he did say was that if they are getting the VitD along with their calcium, they do not need supplemented with vitamins that contain VitD as often... especially if the feeders are gut-loaded correctly with nutritious food. This would also mean that if a vitamin supplement was being used that contains VitD, that you would not need calcium that also contains it. He told me that he has NEVER seen a case of hypervitaminosis D in Leopard Geckos in the 25 years he has worked with them. He also told me that too much Vitamin A is a much bigger concern, and that supplements containing beta-carotene are a better choice since they don't dump straight VitA into the gecko's system.