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Fla Fish And Wildlife

the answer to allot of these questions

really requires being prepared. The best way would be to have council at these shows. If F/W approach you for your permit, you provide it. If they request other information that was part of the permit application, you provide it. But you are under no obligation in giving them any additonal information other that what was originally required and PAID FOR when you applied for the permit. If any other questions arise, have the council brought over to the table, and he will direct you as to whether you should answer or not.

This is what it has come down to. Otherwise, you are at their mercy. Next time aside from cuffing you off to jail, it may invovle the loss of your animals or your spouse being carted off as well. These laws that they are using are questionable misdemeanors and that is why they are getting away with arresting you . But having council present to prevent abuse is the first step in protecting your rights. Its something that has to be done if these shows are going to exist.

The bad publicity , with customers seeing an arrest made, or law enforcement walking around during a show is enough to pursuade potential buyers from even attending.
 
I believe it is wrong also
I also believe that it will continue to happen if people accept it
I hate losing my freedoms
But hey even i got to admit thats a damn good way to make money
and to cut down on some "undesirables"
 
I am at a loss of word when we are at the point that we need council to keep our rights. We need council just to be ourselves anymore. Money, money, money!!! It is sad we are left to this, worse off if we do not do it.
 
turtlepimp said:
Wayne sends applications out for Florida state permits to exhibit/sell reptiles and amphibians when you get your vendor packets.With that app is a notice to all out of state vendors that if you do not pull a permit,you will be arrested.I really dont see where the confusion is.A few were caught on a technicality.Florida does require reciepts of all animals unless you bred it yourself,which is subject to approval of the arresting officer.Those guys were warned ahead.It sucks,but the letter clearly stated thatr there were going to be no warnings.Both this year and last.

As far as your animals on someone elses tables.Again,put down the Bud and think.This is a Florida show,and you should expect and prepare to meet the guidlines that are set in law.If you are in your car with a beer in your hand,you know you could go to jail fot it,even if the car is parked.He might throw the beer and let you go,but you could expect an arrest.
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I understand the frustration here but if what Andy says is true (which I tend to believe) then people were in violation of the law and were pinched for it. With all due respect Jerry, if this is a misdemeanor the officer may or or may not have had any discretion. The "arrest all out of state violators" directive may have come from his supervisor(s) to arrest all out of state violators. That is not uncommon. I believe that an out of stater charged here with reckless driving (a misdemeanor here in Virginia) is likely to be arrested and have to post bond. That way if he fails to show for the court date the bond is forfeited and he at least has paid the penalty. A Virginia resident is generally issued a summons for the same offense. That's the way it goes.

Jerry, your complaint may be valid, but it should be with the laws and regulations, not with those whose job it is to enforce them on the lowest levels. As a retired police officer I would think you'd know that. Were you ever assigned detail duty at a protest where you were sympathetic with the protesters? Did you ever have to arrest someone in such a situation? Were you doing your job as instructed by your supervisors? Would you have welcomed having your name dragged through the mud over this? You of all people should know better.
 
Jim O said:
I understand the frustration here but if what Andy says is true (which I tend to believe) then people were in violation of the law and were pinched for it. With all due respect Jerry, if this is a misdemeanor the officer may or or may not have had any discretion. The "arrest all out of state violators" directive may have come from his supervisor(s) to arrest all out of state violators. That is not uncommon. I believe that an out of stater charged here with reckless driving (a misdemeanor here in Virginia) is likely to be arrested and have to post bond. That way if he fails to show for the court date the bond is forfeited and he at least has paid the penalty. A Virginia resident is generally issued a summons for the same offense. That's the way it goes.

Jerry, your complaint may be valid, but it should be with the laws and regulations, not with those whose job it is to enforce them on the lowest levels. As a retired police officer I would think you'd know that. Were you ever assigned detail duty at a protest where you were sympathetic with the protesters? Did you ever have to arrest someone in such a situation? Were you doing your job as instructed by your supervisors? Would you have welcomed having your name dragged through the mud over this? You of all people should know better.
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LOL... I think you are Half right
Yes I belive that it is most likely standard proceedure to arrest out of towners
for the reasons you stated
But The OVERZEALOUS Officer could have just overlooked What he did which anyone could tell was a simple misunderstanding
Just because its his job dont make it right
 
turtlepimp said:
Trying to deny that a wildlife officer has two jobs is silly.Job one being enforcing our wildlife statutes,job two.........revenue generator.
Andrew Sury
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I think that covers it best...
 
JIM, sorry for not getting back to you sooner,

but this incident is a 2nd class Misdemeanor, and I am not sure what options the officer could have used in this situation. The permit was valid, the consignment of the animals in question occurred in Kentucky, and were listed when the application was submitted to F/W . Once the officer discovered that the animals in question were not the property of the owner, then the arrest was made. So their are some sticky points here that will be adjudicated and hopefully thrown out. This is not as clear cut as being a violation or knowing better !

Secondly, my concern into the law was based on criminal violations, either misdeanors or felonies. When it came to Administrative code violations, they were handed out by other city officials in the form of a summons. The only exception was traffic violations, and that did not include speeding! Which is a misdemeanor in NY. also,

to answer your other question, yes I had been at several situations such as the riots in NY at Columbia U. and when King was murdered. We had riots in Harlem. But again, any arrests were very well controlled for crimes against the public well being. My sympathies played no part .

Now I am not suggesting that the officer should look the other way if an infraction is present. A 2nd class Misdemeanor may provide some discretion on the part of the officer, to either summons or arrest. This is possible especially since we are targeting out of town vendors, but it should have been very clear to the officer that their was NO INTENT to evade the permit, and a warning would have been enough to say " you cannot sell it and take it off the table" I dont think anyone would have argued with that.

But we both know that was not the situation. Let me also remind you that this thread relates to only 1 arrest, and from what I understand their were several. Also, from the information that I was able to gather, not only was the arresting officer their but his commanding officer as well, to insure that these violations were being addressed dramatically . What this means is that this was very well planned in advance!

So my feelings are simple, if they can approach you, you should be protected with council. Its that simple. Secondly, when an application is filled out in good faith, and the permit is granted and paid for, the requirements have been met. If other problems arise that go beyond the description that the permit calls for, then discretion is the rule of the day, not jail time.
 
The request of F&W for a “resting spot” for the baby turtles in my opinion was not out of line. I’ve been at shows where small turtles are by the dozens in tanks with a water depth that does not allow for them to rest. You see them frantically swimming or trying to climb on each other to maintain afloat for the whole duration of the show. Even kids know that their “baby red ears” need a place where to climb in order to rest and/or bask.

Regards.
 
Dan, i agree with you, but

you are not going to confiscate the turtles, nor will you give the vendor a summons. The outcome was simple. Everyone ran around and got some bark or small rocks and that was the end of that.

The same discretion could have been used with this permit nonsense. For certain , common sense did not prevail. An extreme measure was used to enforce a muddled law that could easily have been handled with some discretion , but was not. Even if the vendor was wrong, the simple answer would be to take the questionable items off the table.

This is a victimless crime, where by the paperwork was or the lack of it was the factor. It should never have reached the conclusion of handcuffs.
 
I have been advocating this around the locals for a while:

Why doesn't the FWC just sell the damn things at the expos? It would be easy for them and us. Currently, we do not find the fee excessive, and most of us would be more than glad to purchase one.

I mean, you can go into a bait or sporting goods store and buy a fishing license. Hell, let the reptile dealers sell them, except FWS would probably get scammed themselves by the bad guys. :cool:
 
you are not going to confiscate the turtles, nor will you give the vendor a summons. The outcome was simple. Everyone ran around and got some bark or small rocks and that was the end of that.
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Jerry,

By no means! What I’m saying is that regardless if it was F&W that requested that, it seems to me it was not ridiculous. It seems to be something that was intended to improve the conditions in which the baby turtles were maintained at the show. With that I don’t have a problem.
 
Guess I missed a bunch by not making the show.

Dinnie Smith, that's really a bumber. I totally feel bad for you and the embarrassment of it all.

Sad the lack of discretion displayed by a state agency. And IMO sounds like an exploit of laws as a means to gain revenue. Like it was all planned out. Sad demonstration of what our laws are supposed to mean.

Hope everything works out in court for you, and not them.

Ciao,
Rick
 
I am having a hard time understanding as to why they are making people purchase a permit to sell reptiles in Fla.
Are they for locals as well as out of state vendors?
If so is it ontop of sales tax?
 
KNOBTAIL said:
But we both know that was not the situation. Let me also remind you that this thread relates to only 1 arrest, and from what I understand their were several. Also, from the information that I was able to gather, not only was the arresting officer their but his commanding officer as well, to insure that these violations were being addressed dramatically . What this means is that this was very well planned in advance!

So my feelings are simple, if they can approach you, you should be protected with council. Its that simple. Secondly, when an application is filled out in good faith, and the permit is granted and paid for, the requirements have been met. If other problems arise that go beyond the description that the permit calls for, then discretion is the rule of the day, not jail time.
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The last show I attended out here the F&W did not show their faces at all. Shows here in So California are not as common and problems are very rare, though this can easily change in a day. It seems that the Florida F/W had expected their presence was needed. If there was illegal sales at the last show or other violations than it would make sense as to why they showed up in Daytona. The issue is did they go too far putting their foot in the door. I can understand if they were looking for venemous, imports, under 4" turtles for sale, or drunks/disorderly conduct for the police to deal with. Though, if Florida saw the consignment and knew about it issuing a permit to NERD than, I think they had no grounds for what they did to Uncle Morti.
 
I couldn't even bring myself to read all this F & W stuff...been there, done that. Ohio resident :) I'm shocked and appauled at the supporters as well, although only a few. Bottom line, it's all political BS. I dare someone to compare problems in the reptile industry to problems in, let's say, hmmmm....our local scool boards, war, child abuse, drug abuse, violent crime, etc. These are REAL issues. I'm sick of reading "well, it's the law", or the ever so prevelant "if you don't like it, get out of the business" jargon. Last time I checked, I wasn't selling crack. Never mind all the details, bottom line - I don't agree with it, any of it..."they" wanna make a difference in the world, then adopt a child, mentor at-risk youth, monitor all of the registered sex offenders that DON'T freaking register and live within 2 blocks of a middle school, or how about generating enough noise to convince our Gov't that it's time to pull our beloved troops out of Iraq...that's what the "F" I'd like to see happen at the next reptile expo...not all of this BS drama. Get real people, this is america and we are NOT free :hot:

...and please don't respond by insinuating I am not a proud american...that's so last summer...it's a great country, however it's got it's flaws. When some idiot that wants to take the "God" out of "one nation under God" get's more press and consideration than ONE MILLION responsible reptile keepers getting the shaft slowly but surely in every city accross america because they don't have a "permit" for their Albino Black Ratsnake, or their Cornsnake has the "potential" to exceed 7', then Houston, we have a problem - Columbus, we have a problem, PA, we also have a problem, Colorado, again...a problem, Indiana, we HAD a MAJOR problem, Fla. we have a problem...

Focus eveyone, on IMPORTANT issues - and again, I feel I need to clarify for those of you who look for a reason to "flame"...I'm not referring to endangered species, cruelity, import/export issues, etc..just the general BS F & W are pulling out their ______ these days. It's ugly, and in my humble opinion, they suck.
 
screamdreams said:
Columbus, we have a problem, PA, we also have a problem, Colorado, again...a problem, Indiana, we HAD a MAJOR problem, Fla. we have a problem...
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I'll second that... and come early next year Colorado will have one less law-abiding, tax-paying, responsible reptile keeper to contend with. My move back to the Southeast will be my finest contribution to myself and my animals to date.
 
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