Fla Fish And Wildlife

[Jungle Gems]

Karen,

Thanks for your tidbit of info, and I'm glad you're one of only a few individuals who are able to see the Salmonella hype for what it's worth. It seems the medical profession is not immune to ignorance (ipse dixit). Since when has Salmonella, a gram negative ENTERIC rod, *ever* been passed in utero?! It's amazing that Toxoplasma gondii (a true hazard to unborn fetuses) gets little media attention and pregnant women STILL clean litter boxes without consequence, while in the meantime we are warned of the "inevitable" consequences of exposure to Salmonella, a bacteria commonly harbored enterically by many living creatures other than reptiles. Honestly.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Needless to say they did not pet the Komodos, but they all laid their hands on the bars of the enclosure as they lean to watch.

And whose fault is it when people do not practice proper handwashing techniques? It's not the zoo's fault. I wish people would take responsibility for their own actions.

It's amazing that Toxoplasma gondii (a true hazard to unborn fetuses) gets little media attention and pregnant women STILL clean litter boxes without consequence, while in the meantime we are warned of the "inevitable" consequences of exposure to Salmonella, a bacteria commonly harbored enterically by many living creatures other than reptiles.

I type for several doctors, some of them OB/GYNs and I've typed the old "don't clean the litter box" a thousand times and even "get rid of the cat" about 30 times. But they have yet to tell people that they can get toxoplasmosis from raw or undercooked meat such as venison, pork and lamb.

Maybe I shouldn't complain. Those ladies who "had" to get rid of their snakes because they were going to transmit salmonella to their unborn children gave me their snakes. They were nice ones too.

 

[Jungle Gems]

Maybe I shouldn't complain. Those ladies who "had" to get rid of their snakes because they were going to transmit salmonella to their unborn children gave me their snakes. They were nice ones too.

At least I can take comfort in knowing that ignorance bred something useful... that the snakes you now care for are in better, more knowlegdeable hands than they were in times previous.

 

[The BoidSmith]

And whose fault is it when people do not practice proper handwashing techniques? It's not the zoo's fault. I wish people would take responsibility for their own actions.

Exactly! It’s a matter of educating the public. The following graph was reported by the Center for Disease Control. Of course reptiles are always on the news but...

 

[The BoidSmith]

The CDC has based their concern partly in research published in Sweden. Note that the greatest incidence for turtle associated salmonellosis was in children between ages 1-4 (roughly 0.6 per 100,000 children) and ages 1-9 where 1 boy per 100,000 was affected. Girls in that age group were nearly half as much affected.

 

[Junkyard]

We are having problems here with a certain animal shelter. They have no problems euthanizing animals. We are on their permenant list of who to call first when it comes to a reptile that they get in. If no one takes it in three days they will call us or put it down. They have no patience for reptiles("they carry salmonella") and they are all aggressive(even if they are not). If a dog or cat comes in it will be held until adopted, unless it is too aggressive. This is the animal control!

Bringing this on topic, this is how reptiles are seen in the eyes of animal shelters and their officers down here. We are on the inside of this certain shelter and there is only one person(an officer) who is willing to touch a reptile to get it in or out of the cage and that is it. He personally hates touching them. They do not know the proper care of the animals they get in, we pick them up and they are in the worst cage and conditions. Iguanas are put in bird cages, the bottom of the cage under the bars is full of feces and urine. It does not matter to them because it will be put down tomorrow anyway. This is the animal control! At least at this shelter they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to reptiles, I cannot speak for all of them.

If they see a snake in the worst conditions and they confiscate it, they will not prosecute for animal cruelty(I know this firsthand from a 9 foot boa that was just rescued that was not cared for at all and needed immediate vet help(she is doing great now))their excuse was "it is different when it comes to snakes" response "WHAT!?!?!?!?!.....WHY?" no answer.

In all reality I have no problems with F/W being at a reptile show, my concern is if they truly know the proper care of the reptiles they see. They need to be fair honest to all the vendors, as far as out of towner's it seemed that they were harder on them because they could get away with it. If they are checking for illegal sales, no permits, illegal animals, or see a dwarf albino het for triple stripe spider crossed chimpanzee in a rubbermaid converted cage, than good for them.

 

[The BoidSmith]

If they see a snake in the worst conditions and they confiscate it, they will not prosecute for animal cruelty(I know this firsthand from a 9 foot boa that was just rescued that was not cared for at all and needed immediate vet help(she is doing great now))their excuse was "it is different when it comes to snakes" response "WHAT!?!?!?!?!.....WHY?" no answer.

Let’s face it Salmonella is just their “escape goat” to justify their irrational and innate fear of reptiles. Most people have this fear, and because they work for F&W that doesn’t mean they necessarily love all creatures great and small. Not everyone will enjoy the same things we do, but at least what we should expect from them is to let us enjoy what we like, within reason and respect for the law.

Regards.

 

[LotsaPetsGarfHt]

Salmonella is a very real concern.

Look at the graphs, where import restrictions were lifted. I stated in an earlier post that that law wasn't worth the time it took to write, my reasoning was they have not done anything about poultry, eggs and other meats carrying it. I'm old enough that I can say I had many "baby turtles" and can't say that I ever got sick because of them. I do know that many times the condititions they were kept in at the store and in their little bowl with the palm tree were not good. I also remember seeing them with "painted shells" I'm sure that wasn't good for them either. There had to have been a real problem somewhere to bring about the law back then. I have to say this because it was before the BUNNY HUGGERS surfaced, and they just didn't decide to ban baby turtles for the hell of it.

BTW when I had my visit involving the ANIMAL PROTECTIVE LEAGUE a couple of weeks ago, he asked me if I'd "haven't you ever heard of Psittacosis and Salmonella". I suspect he must be an expert because he asked me that question then continued on into another rant. I've had BOTH! I'm sure I've had Salmonella, and I KNOW I had Psittacosis back when I worked for a wholesaler and Imported Birds were still available (the best thing they ever did was stop the importation of birds in my opinion), and I can tell you that I got it from a group of imported baby Ghanna African Grey Parrots. I had the responsibility of cleaning, feeding, watering, and giving them their meds via daily injections. I guess my point is they must have had a valid reason to stop the sale of baby turtles, and imported birds, but they can't fully protect us from either disease since other animals and/or products can also make us sick and they have done little else to protect us from them.

Permit systems should be fought tooth and nail, it is usually only the beginning. I was not aware of the issue here in Ohio until just before it went into effect, and I recieved the information it the mail. I CAREFULLY read the information, faxed it to my Lawyer, and asked his opinion. His response was "don't get the permit", "much of the information in this brochure is too vague and and open to interpetation", "the paperwork requirements are and inspection policies are unreasonable in my opinion". I had noticed that in more than one paragraph if you read a sentance one way it ment one thing but it could be read another way to mean something entirely different, "open to Interpetation". I called the office in Akron Ohio and asked several questions, didn't get any answers and was refered to our local enforcement agent. At the time I had an albino black rat snake. I asked him it the permit system applied to it since it was NOT commenly found in the wild, I was told "I don't know but I'll find out". MANY other people contacted their local enforcement agents and asked the same thing, most were told the law DID NOT apply to color morphs. I was told it applied to "ALL black rat snakes reguardless of color, and that a black rat snake was a black rat snake no matter what color it is". I may have been the only person given the correct information. If I had known about these laws and permit system while it was in the works I would have tried to fight it, not that I'm a fan of selling reptiles that are native to Ohio, but I know it is just the beginning. I would really like to have some Fox Snakes, but I probably never will.

You can bet that next year in DAYTONA, breeding records and/or reciepts will be needed along with your "permit" to display and sell animals, since they have already started to ask for them.

 

[lizfortune]

Here's my .02...

Based on the info. I read during this thread (and I definitely could have missed something crucial as I did not have time to read every thread), the packets had warning information included with them as well as (I believe) they have been warning people at least the last show (or maybe two) to be in compliance.

However, I also believe taking somebody to jail for a petty offense is overkill and completely inappropriate! I am also a previous cop and, if those guys were on our department, they would have been ridiculed for "jailing" somebody for such a stupid and petty offense.

BTW- Morti, do you still have any of those tiger ratsnakes? I have a collection, but would enjoy getting some that I don't already have. Email me at: [email protected]

Good luck everybody!
Brian Aish

 

[KNOBTAIL]

the original intent of "breeding and receipt" were

really intended for instate stores. It was designed to insure that anyone (within the state of Fla )selling to a retail operation was in compliance themselves with their own permit. So if someone came into the store, without a permit, the store legally could not purchase that animal unless the seller had a permit. If the animal in question was bred in the store than simple records would suffice.

Prior to this , the state of Fla was loosing allot of revenue to individuals who would purchase animals, and go into their own little weekend business and sell without having any permits themselves, nor any interest in getting one. This compliance brings in allot of revenue.

This same philosophy apparently was carried over to the vendors who were out of state as well. This is where some clarification is required. I dont believe that the state of Fla when issuing a permit for 2 days at a gathering such as Daytona, has the legal authority to include out of state vendors , when the permit is a temporary one, issued for a specific event, and complies with all the necessary paperwork for acceptance.

This is a perfect example of an interpetation gone mad. Why the state of Fla should be SO concerned about a 48 hour permit that would require that type of incarceration has to be litigated. If these officials are allowed to continue, without any recourse from the herp community, then next year it will be confiscation! That you can take to the bank !!!

 

[WebSlave]

Let's face it, litigation is expensive. How many people are going to spend $15K+ to fight a small fine? Especially from someone out of state who will have travel expenses on top of that. F/W knows that is not likely and can probably get away with anything they like with impunity. I think the best course may be to contact the actual commissions in charge of FWCC (http://myfwc.com/commission/index.html). Let them know what is going on. Those are the people who actually make the decisions there.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Rich, the only way would be

to have a vendors association provide money and file a class action suit against not only F/W but I would go after the agent as well. I realize that these agencies have a built in formula of wearing you down financially if you stand alone trying to fight the system, but their are avenues with a good bulldog attorney, to go after them. It is something that may happen as yet.

If Wayne does not provide some security to insure his vendors from these types of liabilities, then people will not venture out to take the risk of having their livestock seized as well as themselves.

Had Morti not gotten the $ 500. to bail him out, what would his wife have done considering that they live in KY. Its really a terrible burdon placed on people , good people who rely on the good faith of the state of Fl only to be thrown into a nightmare. Fortunately, for me, I am immune from F/W, and I can afford to be more vocal, but I would fight them had it been me.

If each vendor just gave a $ 1.00, we could afford an attorney at these shows to at least advise us of our rights as to what we should or should not say when confronted with a possible admission of guilt. Had Morti not mentioned the fact that his snakes were on the table, or had he been advised by council to "say nothing" he would not have incriminated himself . But because of his honesty , he was arrested. Wheres the logic in that. What are we talking about, paperwork!

 

[Dennis1]

It would be a good thing if the herpers in this hobby had a defense fund
I dont claim to know how to set one up But would gladly donate time and money to a Legitimate defense fund thats sole purpose would be to agressivly defend my/Our rights to own and breed animals/reptiles as long as it doesnt hurt people or the enviroment!

I am sure there are some out there qualified to do this,And with this hobby growing i am sure that if only some contribute at the very least we would be heard

I can understand some of the problems the authorities have with reptile but that in no way gives them the right to damn the whole hobby
I say as long as you are not hurting anyone with your pets then you should not be harassed

LOL... we could call it P.E.T.H.(People for the Ethical Treatment of Hobbyists)
If anyone wants to do this legitimatly i would Definetly support with at the very least monetary contributions
However i am no sucker so i put an enphasis on Legitimate if any of the GREEDY bad guys are reading

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Dennis, I am sure their are umbrella organizations that

would love to have your imput such as PJAC, but we need some protection on a more local level specifically at shows to protect the vendors rights against self incriminations.

I need to know what I can say and what I should not say when I have 3 agents in front of my table. People spend allot of money to get to Daytona as a vendor. Its not enough that we have to go through hell with getting the animals their. We get hasseled by the airlines, hasseled by the hotel, and then have to worry about state agents.

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

 

[Tsutton5]

here in NJ

Here in NJ were are not allowed to keep buy or sell turtles.. because of the fear of saminella...

 

[Dennis1]

Good Idea

would love to have your imput such as PJAC, but we need some protection on a more local level specifically at shows to protect the vendors rights against self incriminations.

I need to know what I can say and what I should not say when I have 3 agents in front of my table. People spend allot of money to get to Daytona as a vendor. Its not enough that we have to go through hell with getting the animals their. We get hasseled by the airlines, hasseled by the hotel, and then have to worry about state agents.

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

Sounds like a good idea
All the vendors could pitch in to hire a lawyer to be present and advise all at the show,That would show the Authorities that you wont stand for the harrassment!
If i was a vendor i would support it anyway i could

Im not sure and anyone correct me if im wrong, But i do not think they make you buy a permit here in Michigan to sell your animals at the show
And i would fight it if they tried, I just dont understand it
I wonder how many states regulate like fla?
If it was hurting someone or the animals i would agree to regulate it
But if not, Then i say let big bro harass someone else

Also i think the turtle thing is federal we have the same under 4" rules here
Although if a child was putting a turtle in his mouth i would be more worried of a bite then salmonilla
If this has happened i dont think its the turtles fault,Where were the parents?...lol

 

[Jim O]

This could have been resolved so easily by paying for the additonal permit right their and then as opposed to being incarcerated. Why was that not an option?

Quite simple:

• Permit fee: $25
• Penalty for not having permit: $500 + court costs

As someone said earlier, these guys have two jobs and one is revenue generation. It's the same reason there are more speeding tickets issued near the end of the month. Gotta make that quota.

 

[Dennis1]

Now thats something Jim and i agree on
LOL...must be true

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Just another thought.
Not that I condone the outrageous behaivor, and unprofessional actions of the F/W in Fla. But I am just trying to see it from their eyes.

From what I understand, (and feel free to correct me) Fla has one of the highest counts for indigenous, non-native herp species. They got populations of wild Burms, Bci, and countless lizards, anoles, etc., that have all been turned loose or escaped from people who bought them. Either from vendors at shows, or local pet stores, or online, but "where they bought" is irrelevant.
They are a huge problem. That is relevant. And may very well contribute to their extreme actions.
When an introduced species of reptile starts to eat the native fauna, and the native fauna hits endangered because of the intrduced species, than in their eyes, it may be time to get tougher about the reptiles in particular.

This is only speculation on my part. But I try to see both sides of the story.

It does not mean I agree with the methods they chose to use though. Anyway, just my extra $0.025. Think I gave a nickle now. LOL

Ciao,
Rick

 

[Junkyard]

I do not see why the shows could not have an attorney present, anything can happen that defense is needed. I have read articles of shows being broken into and thousands of dollars worth of animals were stolen. Does the shows themselves like NARBC or IRBA have their own attorneys? Or do the vendors need to get one and go after the perpetrators themselves? I do not know what the outcome was of these cases, I suspect a lot of people were involved.

I personally would not mind having someone to talk to in case someone approached me and said I was being fined/arrested because it took over 30 seconds for me to find my records. The bulldog is needed, but I think a raccoon might do better. These can be tricky, I work in the medical profession. OSHA fined a doctor because she had too much OSHA material on hand and it took her books where to specific, they fined her $10,000 because they said she should of had a section labeled "Other". She fought them tooth and nail, but she still ended up paying the $10,000 fine. All her paperwork was official OSHA material. What OSHA did afterwards was celebrate their victory by publishing the events in their newsletter, mocking her and warning everyone else.

I would expect the same kind of idiocy from F/W. If you go after such a large government agency you really need a strong offence. Every vendor would need to get involved and have a few attorneys working together. The shows themselves may have to add another $5 to each booth, I understand booths cost much, but if we have to fight so much over the little things because we love reptiles, though this may be what we have to do.