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Fla Fish And Wildlife

KNOBTAIL

KNOBTAIL

LORD OF THE FLIES
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any information about the 3 arrests at the Daytona show. I know one involved NERD, but the full story would be appreciated . They are a real problem. I had spoken to some of the turtle people their who were harrased into providing areas in their turtle containers for the turtles to come out onto . So everyone had to provide a rock into their container, regardless of the fact that the turtles were totally aquatic!

I could be wrong, but apparently if you have a booth and you have someone elses animals at your table, and the F/W find out,that those animals in question are not yours, you could be arrested. Any info would be appreciated.
 
Jerry, I also was told the same thing about selling animal's that belonged to other's. My partner is on his way home from there, I was told that there were more than 3 arrests but I will try and find out more info from him.
 
RICHARD, i am under the

impression that someone from NERD was arrested and jailed until bail money was provided. This is based on heresay, so I am attempting to get some correct information.
 
The state went around checking on who actually owned animals at the tables. If there were animals at a table that didn't belong to the actual vendor ie.....on consignment, the person who they belonged to needed a Florida license to exhibit and sell reptiles. They were a few CB spilotes rat snakes that were on Kevins permit but it didn't matter if they were someone elses other then Kevins. Two others at different tables were arrested for leopard geckos also. What a trip.....

These people had to post $500.00 bail which NERD posted for him....all of the cash he had was taken away and NERD gave him money to get by for the weekend and to get home, and now he has to go back to florida for a court appearance sometime in the future.
 
You all are going to love this:

I blew this report off as being insane but here goes:

An employee at the regional reptile wholesaler came back and told me that Florida Fish and Wildlife were walking around with reams of handcuffs arresting people right and left for not having the around $25 permit to sell in FL. So he went and hid in the venomous room! Ha Ha! He said that if you did not give the officers a hard time, they would give you a $500 ticket.

However, if you protested, they would handcuff you and take you to prison. At least one guy said "this is bull****!" and went to jail in cuffs.

But, he said that the officers were actually pretty nice about the whole thing, and if you were to be charged, they would first let the vendors go to the bathroom first to get rid of your drugs! Ha Ha Ha Ha!

I swear, this is what he told me. Ha Ha! :cool:
 
In the future ,as a former police officer, I can attest

to the fact that you do NOT have to provide any answers to any questions unless you have council. That would be the best course of action to take when being addressed by F/W if you are NOT the holder of the permit. Just refer everything to the permit holder. Had it been me, I would not have entertained any type of communications with the officer other than " you will have to speak to my boss" You are under NO obligation in answering any questions, and certainly incriminating oneself for arrest.

You can handle it politely, and just inform the officer that you are just working here. If they want to know about animals on the table, your answer should be, "you will have to come back or speak to the owner of the table."

I also believe that Wayne Hill should have an attorney on staff to help if a permit problem arises. You are in a no win situation if you are out of state and a summons is issued for a return date in Fla. Hopefully their will be more to this nightmare and we will be better prepared for their next onslaught of creative manslaughter of the herp industry.
 
Hi, I'm Donnie Smith, better known to most as Morti.

It's like this:

For the past 2 years, my wife and I have worked at NERD's table at the Daytona show. This year I had 7 snakes available to sell: 5 Tiger Rat snakes (Spilotes pullatus pullatus) and 2 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons (Morelia spilota variegata). I made arrangements with Kevin and Kara to get these animals put on NERD's permit so that they could be displayed and sold at NERD's table. The way I understood it, this should have been all that was required as they were then considered by Kevin and I to be on consignment to NERD. To me the fact that I was going to be working at NERD's table was irrelevant.

Sunday at approximately 11:00 AM, an officer from fish and wildlife came to the table asking to see the permit. For whatever reason he addressed this request to me. I directed him to Kevin saying that he was the owner, he had the permit. He stated he also needed to see "breeding records or receipts" for every animal at the table. While he and Kara were discussing the fact that this information had never been requested before and that they did not have any such records, I pulled out the breeding records for the snakes that I provided for NERD to sell, as it is my standard practice to provide basic info such as birthdates, feeding, and shedding records to anyone who purchases my animals.

This, it would turn out, was the wrong thing to do.

The officer examined these records and was again like "This is great for these animals but what about the rest of them?" and again I pointed out that he should ask Kevin or Kara as I didn't breed those animals.

After a while he wandered off. At around 12:15 PM, he returned and pulled me aside. He informed me that in order to lawfully sell or exhibit animals, I should have my own permit with my own name on it. He allowed me to remove the animals in question from the table and he proceeded to write me a citation. He informed me that I would be transported to jail where I would have to pay a $500 bail/bond to be released. Kevin generously supplied me with the cash. The officer informed me that residents of Florida were simply written a citation while non-residents would be transported to jail. I will have to return for court in October.

There was quite a long wait while his commanding officer returned with two other people who were cited for the same violation. After a wait of about an hour and a half total, I was taken outside, frisked, handcuffed, and transported to Volusia County Jail where I was processed as a criminal, finger-printed, had my mug shot taken, and had all my personal possessions confiscated. I was then put in a "Holding cell" with two other offenders, one passed out and snoring, the other very intoxicated. The other two gentlemen arrested at the expo at the same time as me were put in the "drunk tank" with me.

After what seemed like a stupid amount of time, we were finally released. The gentleman who owned the table from which the two other permit offenders were arrested graciously offered me a ride back to the expo from jail. I had other arrangements, but this worked out better as I didn't want anyone to have to leave the show early on my account.

Incidentally, the biggest silver lining that I have seen in this situation is just how wonderfull everyone that I have spoken with in the herp community has been. Not just with Kevin and Kara, whom I already consider close friends, but with people who I didn't even really know. I received more kind words and encouragement from perfect strangers than I thought was possible.

I am very sorry that I had to put my friends and family though this situation, as I would have gladly bought my own permit if I had known that it was required. If the officer had simply told me to remove these animals from the table, I would have also done so willingly. I really wish that I would have known all of this before.

That is why I am posting this now: I don't want anyone to have the same problem that I did. If you want to share a table with someone else at a Florida show, make absolutely sure that each person has their own permit. That is the interpretation of the law that Florida F&W is going by... this year.
 
Why did this business of

breeding records come up?

Am I to assume that everyone who had any living animal at that show would have to have that information on hand? Apparently these agents appear to be reading into a law that NO ONE has ever experienced before in the state of Fla. as a vendor in a show. The applications for a permit from out of state vendors, does not require breeding records in order to participate a show on a temporary basis. The problem that you have is that these law enforcement agents persue a course of action that should be decided by a judge, not by them . If the show were " imported herps included" then this would be a mute subject since the animals were legally imported. No paperwork is required other than the permit for selling, so why is it necessary to provide paperwork that relates to breeding. Absolutely ridiculous.
 
good luck

Well Morti good luck and please keep us posted......
Tom Sutton
 
Not just the issue of breeding records, but also receipts!?! I own a rescue, if I take in a reptile does this then mean I need documents of the owner turn in? How about the 21 Garter Babies that were dropped off on my wife and I by someone we never met(as far as we know). I am not saying I will sell an indiginous snake, but those could have been 21 boas left on my doorstep!
 
It is a rather frightning observation

that F/W can create such havoc at a show of the magnitude of the Daytona Show. I do know that with regard to the turtle incident, the owner of the booth was shaken up, and I felt very sorry for him being at the mercy of an idiot threatning to cite a vendor who did nothing wrong other than not having a rock for the turtle to climb on to.

These things should not be happening and F/W should be put on notice by the promoters as well as vendors that we also have rights and that unreasonable requests such as some of the nonsense that has been brought to light will be brought to court if enough complaints are made on these aggressive individual agents, then maybe some good will come out of this. But if we decide to do nothing, then they will continue, because they can get away with it. We need to know who this agent was, and we need to complain about him as strongly as we can.
 
That's just wierd.
When the officer approached my table he didn't say a word. I knew what he was there for and handed him my permit. He said "thanks Chris" and walked away. I was never asked for breeding records and if I had been I wouldn't have had any with me. (even though I personally produced everything that was on my table.)

What's even more strange is that there was less enforcement at the venomous show than the non venomous show. I observed people walking out of the venomous show with reptiles and no VR permits were checked. I waslked out of the venomous show last year with my purchases and was never checked (although I had my VR permit with me if I had been asked for it.)

I don't know if they had a legal leg to stand on with the arrests due to the permit issues but it seems very petty and an incredible waste of resources.
I usually come to FL F&W's defense because I think they are usually pretty fair but based on what I've heard so far, this just seems stupid. They definitely don't have any right to demand breeding records for captive born snakes that aren't even native to FL.

By the way Morti, your Spilotes babies were some of the coolest snakes at the show.
 
Does anyone know who the person with the turtle(s) was? I have an international friend that brings adult turtles every year and I'm concerned it might have been him.

Thanks.
 
gila7150 said:
That's just wierd.
When the officer approached my table he didn't say a word. I knew what he was there for and handed him my permit. He said "thanks Chris" and walked away. I was never asked for breeding records and if I had been I wouldn't have had any with me. (even though I personally produced everything that was on my table.)
Click to expand...

This is prime example of nitt-picking, if a breeder did not have a permit ready before they spoke than they open a can of whoop--- Uncle Morti had everything settled for himself, but they seemed to be after the "principal of the matter" He had no personal permit, though they were sold under the NERD name. Florida F/W, what the heck is that all about?

I would have liked to hassle them, going crazy acting like I lost my permit and just before they cuff me pull it out...scramble through all me breeding records and swear it is all in order :hehe: Do you think that would get them a little upset? They might arrest and fine me because I did not have things out fast enough, I am sure that would go over real well in court :p
 
Sounds like a good time to call a good lawyer.......you need to fight this hard then sue the state. Maybe a good hit in the wallet will slow their roll a little bit.
 
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