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Fla Fish And Wildlife

There was a noticeable change in law enforcement in Florida concerning natural resource oversight rather recently. This appears to have taken place soon after the Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission came into existence from the merger of the Florida Marine Fisheries Commission and the Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission. This has probably been intensified when the past Executive Director was replaced by one from the Marine Fisheries side of the road. There apparently has been a battle in Florida between the fishermen and the FWCC, that is somewhat associated with this merger, as well as the ban on certain types of nets use in commercial fishing. The inside scoop I hear from people close to the sources of information say that commercial fishermen are harassed nearly constantly by the Marine Patrol people. Many people have lost their licenses to fish commercially or given them up voluntarily to end the harassment. I fear that evidence is pointing to this conflict perhaps expanding to keepers of all types of wildlife. However, I doubt this is something that is limited to only Florida in scope, and is only a tiny piece of a much larger picture.

I know a lot of people have derogatory things to say about attorneys, but when law enforcement goes rogue, you may find that a good attorney is nice to have around.
 
this is something that

will have to be addressed or Wayne will loose allot of vendors . With all the millions of dollars worth of herps at Daytona twice a year, what would it cost to have 2 attornys present to protect the interest of the participants.

The fact that their was some kind of shakeup within the F/W is a poor excuse for taking it out on individuals who innocently got caught up in this quagmire of a nightmare.

The turtle situation only pertained to all the turtles under 4". F/W insisted that each container have a rock or a landing area for the turtle. People were running around buying small pieces of bark or finding small rocks . It was ridiculous
 
I Hate the Big Brother Mentality

If I had a booth at the show there's no way I would have had records to show proof of anything. Why would I be expected to have information like that on me if I knew I produced the animals or where I obtained them from? Sounds like scary stuff to me and if that's the type of greeting I can expect at Daytona I think I'd rather be a visitor rather than a vendor thank you. Imagine lugging animals from NH to FL to face that kind of crap.
 
Why only turtles under 4'', do not aquatic turtle grow larger than that? The ones I see at pet store are far larger. If they are going to go after the little things than they need to be consistant and also go after the bigger ones. If they only required specifics for the smaller turtles than I would think that is grounds for having the case tossed out, they were not consistant with all the aquatic turtles sizes, they were only pushing their weight around.

This is a deffinate cause for concern for us here in California. Being as California follows a lot of other states when it comes to animal laws, heck, the ferret is still illegal here. I can easily see California take unnecessary actions against us just because Florida does it. Florida is also one of the leaders in reptiles. I wish you all the best of luck out there, hopefully it is not just an act of being jerks because the F/W carries a badge and handcuffs and they are able to rightfully state their cause in this. Of course it would be hard to justify.
 
What I dont understand is why

this required being handcuffed, fingerprinted, photographed, and kept incarcerated until bail was made. Its a real problem that should be pursued so that some representation is made on behalf of the vendors at these shows. The vulnerability not only is great, but what happens when they confiscate the animals as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I cannot talk for Floridas finacial dealings, just as experience here in California it would not surprise me if this happened here just for a little more cash to go into the hands of our crooked politicians. Our police are currently suing the city!?! Money talks, the more you get the more you want.
 
Sorry but....

What you all need to understand is THEY DON'T WANT SHOWS! Its plain and simple, they would prefer that Reptile Shows didn't exist. There are multiple reasons for their way of thinking, first and foremost there are those that continue to push things to the limit. For instance selling turtlesunder
4inches. IT'S AGAINST FEDERAL LAW! Don't give me that "educational and scientific purposes crap" either its a rather poor loop hole. I myself don't think the law is worth the time it took to write, but just watch someone is going to get hammered sooner or later, everyone that is selling "baby turtles" is one sick child away from real trouble. I would have thought too that if I was working for A&W reptiles I could put my reptiles on their table, but evidently not.

What is actually worse are those that would prefer we did not exist. I'm talking about the "BUNNY HUGGERS", the "HUMANE SOCIETIES" etc. These are generally people that don't know what they're talking about. I recently had a Representative from one of these fine groups tell me my birds were sick, and that my snakes need UVB lighting, and damp substrates, "you should be spraying them".

He suggested that I carry my cages outside to the asphalt parking lot behind the building so they could get some sun. I really didn't know if he was serious or if he just wanted to be able to come back and cite me for cooking reptiles. Oh and I was using newspaper on the bottom of the cages. SUCH CRIMES! I thought he was really going to blow a gasket when he saw the hatchling Blue Beauties in deli cups while I offered them their first meal. I explained what I was doing, and he asked where they're cage was. I told him and all I got was "right".

I have since that day been e-mailing him information so maybe he'll learn something, and not look like the idiot he is.

The bottom line is many people don't understand our hobby/business, and many groups and government agencies don't want us to exist. Take a close look at what happened here in Ohio. I have been involved in the pet industry here in Ohio since about 1978, and owned a retail store the last 8 years. I cannot EVER remember where anyone has offered any of my employers mass quantities of locally collected anything, or had anyone walk into my shop with a tank of garter snakes they wanted to sell me before the laws went into effect. I made it a practice NOT to buy locally wild caught animals before the laws went into effect. I have had people come in asking for Wood Turtles & Spotted turtles, trying to sell me a bunch of garter snakes "cheap", and one fellow that wasn't interested in CB checkered garters or albino checkered garters, he just wanted a garter snake like we have "around here". THEY ARE OUT THERE PRODDING, WORKING TO END our hobby/business.

WAKE UP.
 
John-I am pretty sure we all know that they do not want us around, we are awake. The issue is what are we doing about it. Are these individuals who were wrongfully arrested going to let it pass or are they going to fight it. Do we sit around and let this happen to us or do we let our politicians know what is going on.

Here in California we are only a couple of votes away from making ferrets legal, we are doing this by writting our legislatures and letting them know what we want. They are working for us, we need to remind them of that. As far as in this west state we have shaken things up these last couple of years letting our politicians that if they do not do what the people want we will replace them. We do not do it with a mob mentality, but if they continue to push so they can get as much money in their own pockets while walking on our faces, we put someone else in their place who is willing to listen to the people.

This fight has been going on for many years by those who established this herp community. We have one special person here who has fought the court system since the 70s so we can own snakes, I owe most of my rights to own reptiles to this man. Do we stop all the work they did by letting a couple people push us around? Or do we push back? Write your congressmen and let them know what happened, be polite, and they will come to see that it is more then just a couple weirdos that stare into space that own reptiles. It takes years of fighting that will never stop, but if we just let it go than we have damned ourselves.
 
Just my 2 cents

Wayne sends applications out for Florida state permits to exhibit/sell reptiles and amphibians when you get your vendor packets.With that app is a notice to all out of state vendors that if you do not pull a permit,you will be arrested.I really dont see where the confusion is.A few were caught on a technicality.Florida does require reciepts of all animals unless you bred it yourself,which is subject to approval of the arresting officer.Those guys were warned ahead.It sucks,but the letter clearly stated thatr there were going to be no warnings.Both this year and last.

As far as the basking spots for the turtles,it was eventually accepted that the rule was not going to apply to temporary setups.But it certainly could.That one was tossed by the guy checking the permits.

As far as your animals on someone elses tables.Again,put down the Bud and think.This is a Florida show,and you should expect and prepare to meet the guidlines that are set in law.If you are in your car with a beer in your hand,you know you could go to jail fot it,even if the car is parked.He might throw the beer and let you go,but you could expect an arrest.

It sounds worse than it is,but FWS goes one of two ways,they are either as cool as it gets,or they do thier jobs to the best of thier ability.I wasnt at my table when FWS showed up,but a phonecall by my wife produced the permit and all went well.He could have asked for my reciepts for my animals,which I had,along with pics of the breeders for those animals produced by me.It almost looks like if you have the reciepts,it takes the doubt out of whether they are mine,or am I brokering someone elses stuff,possibly from someone out of state.

My only issue at the show is I brought some display animals for Pete Jansema and his WaterlandTubs display.My animals were returned and Pete took a warning.We did not know he would need the same permit as if he were selling them,but we do now.

Andy Sury
 
Andy, I am not to sure how to deal with

question of "receipts". This is a 2 day show and F/W know very well that people are paying for temp.permits to sell their herps. I can understand the significance to a potential buyer, but not to F/W. As far as I am concerned it has to be litigated. But let us assume that you are correct. I think being cuffed, fingerprinted , photographed and placed behind bars is an overkill.

I as a former NYC police officer would summons if an infraction occurred. Even disorderly conduct which is not a crime is a summonsible offense. Even speeding, which is a misdemeaner in NY and can result in an arrest is 90% of the time a summons to appear in court. But when you cuff someone, you have taken away their civil liberties, and to incarcerate for such a minor infraction that really does not even come close to a crime is a serious problem. It has to be stopped. The gentlemen was their with his wife, they did nothing wrong, other than provide some answers to questions that were asked of them and the person was arrested. What would have happened had it been his wife instead!

As indicated in my earlier post, next time they may seize the animals as evidence, and then what!
 
Jerry,I am not saying it is not overkill,I am stating that there were warnings in place.The wat it was explained to me by Wayne was that too many tickets were being issued in years past with most offenses being no shows in court.

Trying to deny that a wildlife officer has two jobs is silly.Job one being enforcing our wildlife statutes,job two.........revenue generator.

Andrew Sury
 
In my humble opinion it is definitely overkill. They were setting an example and a president for future use. They have the discretion to write you an "on the spot" bail bond on top of any ticket. It is done for fishing and hunting violations all the time. You get your summons and you go to court or you owe the bail bond plus what ever fines and court cost is assessed. There is no need for being carted off to jail for a paperwork infraction. Illegal animals, cruelty, hey take'em to jail! But paperwork? I find it hard to believe that F&G actually thought that anyone was trying to circumvent the law or the permit fees. Its overkill.
 
with regard to not showing up

in court, the rule would apply even in traffic law violations. A bench warrant could be issued by the judge. Granted the vendor if in fact avoided prior appearances and was found in Fla. could very well get arrested even for a small infraction because a bench warrant will show up upon checking through a database.

But for a first time offense, something as petty as "consignment" from an employee on an employers table for a 2 day show, is nothing more than an abuse. I would have no problems in going after these F/W people legally.

What I would like to see posted is the name, shield # and whatever pertinent information about this officer is available. I know as a cop, regardless of the circumstances , I would not like to see negative letters appear in my portfolio. If one letter appears, its sour grapes, but when 100s of letters appear, about an overzelous officer, then these things become a problem for the F/W and other people will take notice. Especially the press.

The pet industry makes enough money to provide some security to honest vendors , who in good faith venture out of their state to attend a gathering with the intention of selling legal reptiles and amphibians with the restraint of violations that border on the pale. I know of no violation and that includes some misdemeanors that REQUIRES people being arrested, and having their civil liberties denied them due to a paperwork infraction.
 
KNOBTAIL said:
What I would like to see posted is the name, shield # and whatever pertinent information about this officer is available. I know as a cop, regardless of the circumstances , I would not like to see negative letters appear in my portfolio. If one letter appears, its sour grapes, but when 100s of letters appear, about an overzelous officer, then these things become a problem for the F/W and other people will take notice. Especially the press.
Click to expand...


There is a good idea, contact the press, let them know of the happenings at the Daytona Show. In newspapers they have a letter column, maybe a few letters might get them to start asking some questions. Especially if some civil liberties were taken away over paperwork issues, news media would love to do all they can to jump on that one because it is against government authorities. As far as out here if there is any bad press against government officials they will create quite the story. As I heard once before from a reporter in the news media "Give me a few pictures of a battle and I will give you a war".
 
Junkyard said:
Why only turtles under 4'', do not aquatic turtle grow larger than that? The ones I see at pet store are far larger. If they are going to go after the little things than they need to be consistant and also go after the bigger ones. If they only required specifics for the smaller turtles than I would think that is grounds for having the case tossed out, they were not consistant with all the aquatic turtles sizes, they were only pushing their weight around
Click to expand...
They could just as easily have insisted on the removal of turtles under 4". I mean that, at least, is a real law. If not the removal, they could certainly have monitored the sales/purchases to ensure that they were appropriate.
 
Personally, it would make more sense if they were making sure the under 4" turtles were either display animals or not sold, then to worry if they had a rock to climb on. I do not go into pet stores and hassle them if their reptiles do not have a hide. I do give them a whole lot of grief if the reptiles are covered in mites and ticks, that is an issue, hides are not.
 
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