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Fla Fish And Wildlife

Nick, this has nothing to do with our fauna

problem. Its a clear case of what we need to do to protect ourselves from future loss of revenue and animals.

Its going to happen, its just a question of time, and place. The authorities know very well that out of state vendors have less of a chance of putting up a fight if they have to makes trips to the judicial system several times. They will wear you down financially. Thats how this works.

The answer is protection once you are here, and the only way to insure your own survivial at these shows is to have the appropriate council at your side when you get approached with a problem.

Everyone has cell phones, an attorney can be on staff for the 2 days , making sure that your rights are protected. If a problem arises , just call the # and dont say anything until the attorney arrives. He will direct you to take whatever legal actions are required to fulfill your obligation as a permit holder.

If anything, the F/W will be a bit more careful and not as flippant as they tend to be in some instances.
 
You know, even if you can't get an attorney to be present at a show, perhaps at the very least video taping a confrontation might be worthwhile. That way the "authorities" know that every action they make is being recorded and can be used in testimony. Or wind up on the evening news.
 
Rich, just out of curiosity

did you have breeding records for all the snakes that had on your table? I wonder if Strictly had records for the amount of herps on his table as well ?
 
I was working the venomous show and...

Was approached by F/w. The agent was friendly and asked if we were checking for the FL VP. I answered "Of Course". LE folks don't make me apprehensive so I sparked up friendly conversation. What disturbed me was his take of the Venomous "Scene". He told me that his biggest fear was that his son would pick up a "Little Green Snake" and that it would be his last. I told him that I shared his concerns (As a father) but that the majority of venomous keepers were also advocates of responsible husbandry and security practices. He spoke fairly vindictively like I was a small part of the "BIG PROBLEM". I told him that his concerns were misplaced and that there was a far greater threat to his child of picking up one of Florida's Native Venomous. He kind of shrugged it off and continued on his way. There was a strange sense of us and them that could not be broken by friendly conversation and reasoning.....I don't know if this propaganda is professed by the Higher-ups to the subordinates or what, but that's the same mindset that ended with Uncle Morti being taken into custody. If they can't justify their attendance (shows) then they have wasted valuable Man-power therefore they must capitalize on any infraction they can. I pray for a day that everyone both hobbyist and LE realize that we're supposed to be on the same team and can both co-exist without such animosity.


Either way I think the show (for the most part) went well. It was nice meeting a good few of you and I hope to see more of ya'll next year.

Later,
Paul Bollinger
 
KNOBTAIL said:
did you have breeding records for all the snakes that had on your table? I wonder if Strictly had records for the amount of herps on his table as well ?
Click to expand...

Actually I did, but it was accidental, and only for the 2005 babies. I create a spreadsheet that serves as an index for the ID numbers I assign to each baby snake set up. This is so I can cross reference what the genetics of the parents are. However, there were no such records for the adults I brought, nor the 2004 animals. And I would have been pretty surprised if I had been asked for them, as I have no recollection of reading about such records being a requirement for attending the show. Basically having to prove an animal is "legal" in such a manner flies in the face of innocent until proven guilty, in my opinion.
 
Paul, their is no

sense in trying to maintain a friendly atmosphere with these people. They are not your friends! I know from my own past experience, that I provided them with the paperwork that they required, and maintained silence until they were satisfied with it. Their was no small talk, and I was not interested in their points of view. As a matter of fact, they really have no right in bringing up anything other than the business of checking the permits.

That course of action is the best and the least obtrusive into your own philosophy. Had they made some comment to me about green snakes or anything else that was unrelated to the issue at hand, I simply would have said, " is their anything else I can provide you with , that you need to see" and that would have been it!!!
 
I do think that since 9/11, most policemen feel the rules have changed to guilty until proven innocent, extending this in their minds to any offence. Remember that little thing called the Patriot Act? Because of human and police nature, we must always fight for our liberty and rights. :cool:
 
I dont understand what all the crying is about.... You break a clearly written out law, you should be prepared to deal with whatever happens if you get caught....

To be honest, I am glad this went down.... It will keep most of the trash from vending at these shows and will keep the legit people even more honest....

Morti, instead of trying to get by without a permit, why didnt you just spend the money to buy one???

I just cant see how someone can complain about being locked up for breaking a law that was spelled out in plain English.....

Stop crying already....
 
Gregg M said:
I dont understand what all the crying is about.... You break a clearly written out law, you should be prepared to deal with whatever happens if you get caught....

To be honest, I am glad this went down.... It will keep most of the trash from vending at these shows and will keep the legit people even more honest....

Morti, instead of trying to get by without a permit, why didnt you just spend the money to buy one???

I just cant see how someone can complain about being locked up for breaking a law that was spelled out in plain English.....

Stop crying already....
Click to expand...
LOL...you have a point there
However not all laws are good and if we accept them as they are,They will become Commonplace and most probably open doors to worse laws which may infact even affect you or me?
 
Dennis1 said:
LOL...you have a point there
However not all laws are good and if we accept them as they are,They will become Commonplace and most probably open doors to worse laws which may infact even affect you or me?
Click to expand...

LOL... I am not saying I agree with the the laws (especially in my state) but they are there none the less and should be followed wether you like them or not.... If you fail to comply, you cant complain :bawling: if you get pinched....

This could have been avoided if people just did not sell 4 inch turtles (federal law) and bought the proper permits in order to vend at the show.... Both of those laws/rules are clearly spelled out and they are not unreasonable laws/rules.....
 
WHETHER, these laws are

reasonable or unreasonable are something that will be decided in a court of law. But I think you miss the point here!

If I am not mistaken, the snakes in question were listed on the permit application prior to coming to the state of Fla. It should not matter how many animals actually belonged to the permit holder or where he obtained them or have in his possession breeding records or recipts of purchase . They were out of state vendors. Had it been instate that would have been a different story.

The whole purpose of providing that information about instate records is : revenue, control of the movement of animals, registered names and addresses of people engaged in the traffic of herps.

What value would F/W have in knowing about herp information when the vendor lives in Ky or Tx. NONE ! Secondly, these were legal herps, brought under the banner of the permit, payed for and should have been honored as out of state vendor status.

Their is nothing wrong legally with providing animals with consigned merchandize. It is an acceptable form of business. Nor is their anything wrong with providing the permit holder with those animals. The only difference is : instate the , those consigning have to have a permit, those out of state should not!

Regardless, the out will be settled in a court, but Morti did not do anything wrong, should not have been incarcerated, and certainly does not deserve, as you seem to suggest the fate that he experienced. Personally, I think you r post was really unnecessary. I am sure Morti knows the difference between what is right and wrong. Its the interpetation that seems to be controlled by others that make the difference.
 
Police state

KNOBTAIL said:
reasonable or unreasonable are something that will be decided in a court of law. But I think you miss the point here!

If I am not mistaken, the snakes in question were listed on the permit application prior to coming to the state of Fla. It should not matter how many animals actually belonged to the permit holder or where he obtained them or have in his possession breeding records or recipts of purchase . They were out of state vendors. Had it been instate that would have been a different story.

The whole purpose of providing that information about instate records is : revenue, control of the movement of animals, registered names and addresses of people engaged in the traffic of herps.

What value would F/W have in knowing about herp information when the vendor lives in Ky or Tx. NONE ! Secondly, these were legal herps, brought under the banner of the permit, payed for and should have been honored as out of state vendor status.

Their is nothing wrong legally with providing animals with consigned merchandize. It is an acceptable form of business. Nor is their anything wrong with providing the permit holder with those animals. The only difference is : instate the , those consigning have to have a permit, those out of state should not!

Regardless, the out will be settled in a court, but Morti did not do anything wrong, should not have been incarcerated, and certainly does not deserve, as you seem to suggest the fate that he experienced. Personally, I think you r post was really unnecessary. I am sure Morti knows the difference between what is right and wrong. Its the interpetation that seems to be controlled by others that make the difference.
Click to expand...
Im not sure but the way i read it was, Technicly Donnie was sidestepping the permit fee by selling his snakes under someone elses permit
Why on earth he told the FFW this i dont know
But in my oppinion he didnt have to be arrested for that he could have just as easy been warned something like dont do it again or take those home
I think i understand the origanal issue of permits to protect native and or endangered species but just like anything else permits/laws can be abused for the wrong reasons which in fla is definetly money and quite possibly they associate reptiles with "undesireables"
who knows they may think that one of those hurricanes might knock down a few tables and let loose a few hundred invasive species to their already screwed up ecosystem... :rofl:
The fact is they came to the show with the intention of ticketing and arresting people i think its Wrong but if anyone wants to stand for that thats ok too
 
Gregg M said:
LOL... I am not saying I agree with the the laws (especially in my state) but they are there none the less and should be followed wether you like them or not.... If you fail to comply, you cant complain :bawling: if you get pinched....

This could have been avoided if people just did not sell 4 inch turtles (federal law) and bought the proper permits in order to vend at the show.... Both of those laws/rules are clearly spelled out and they are not unreasonable laws/rules.....
Click to expand...
Gimme a break...lol
you know as well as i do thats a B.S. law(Turtles)
 
and one more thing before i go watch the tube
the same people who beleive that those laws are not being abused for the sake of money
are probably the same people who beleive in things like MWD's in iraq,Food for Oil,
alkida connections in iraq,the war is anthing but oil related and most likely were the ones putting turtles under 4" in their mouths as a child
The rest of should not pay for the gullablility
 
It should not matter if every living item on the

table was consigned to the permit holder, everything was listed, all the animals as well as the vendor was "out of state". You dont arrest someone for a permit violation for a law that relates to Fla permits for instate sales and collections of revenue. Thats what this is all about.

As i indicated earlier, what possible value would their be in having to provide breeding records, and purchase receipts for a 2 day show! Even if the vendor decided to sell any of his animals to another vendor (instate) , the only requirement would be a receipt for the sale.

Why should anyone care if an out of state vendor receives animals on consignment from someone else outside the state of Fla Where is the crime?
 
KNOBTAIL said:
table was consigned to the permit holder, everything was listed, all the animals as well as the vendor was "out of state". You dont arrest someone for a permit violation for a law that relates to Fla permits for instate sales and collections of revenue. Thats what this is all about.

As i indicated earlier, what possible value would their be in having to provide breeding records, and purchase receipts for a 2 day show! Even if the vendor decided to sell any of his animals to another vendor (instate) , the only requirement would be a receipt for the sale.

Why should anyone care if an out of state vendor receives animals on consignment from someone else outside the state of Fla Where is the crime?
Click to expand...
The state loses $25.00 for a permit fee

Jeb needs that money for the next presidential election...lol(truth in jest)

but seriously you came up with the best idea to combat the harassment
I just want to say that was a great idea
At the very least I know if i was a vendor i would ask the show how they solved that problem next show before i commited
and rich's idea was good too
Anything i can do to help let me know
 
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