Inquiry Genefreak339 / Michael Harshbarger

[Ball Python Cafe]

Of course I do.

However, its the enthusiastic feeding manner in which these facts are stated in this thread that really leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. There is just a difference in stating facts/making your point and what this thread contains.

The BOI section is without a doubt a benefit to everyone! But I question the obvious joviality in which the 'good guys' relish destroying someone that has me concerned. The power this forum has on peoples lives is a powerful double edged sword. Get it right and save 1,000s of people from at best a very disappointing situation, at worst a transaction mistake that destroys your breeding projects, your income, hopes and dreams. Get it wrong and you have destroyed a person's life in this business and the family he/she feeds. That's serious and I have seen it taken far too lightly in this thread. Throughout this thread I've seen virtual high-fives going on between posts! Are you kidding me? You are destroying someone's livelihood with each post. It real and personal. High-fives, fun and playfulness have no place here. Its like a funeral to me. After reading this and the gleeful manner in which each nail was driven into the coffin, I felt like the group as whole was just losing perspective maybe of just how powerful this forum is.

Jeanean, you are new too. What if you had a negative post made about you from someone you had never heard of (completely made up)? This group would be sniffing you out immediately. They would have gone through your site with a fine tooth comb already and posted anything they saw that was questionable. Look at how quickly I was added to folks bad lists. I don't have a SINGLE unhappy customer EVER and I don't plan on ever having one if I can help it. But I'm on big breeders do not sell or buy from list. Don't you think that is a little too powerful or being wielded a little too easily? Lord forbid that you ever make one of these folks mad. They could make one post and destroy you. I see most of them are in on the same groups. Think this enormous power would ever get abused (not saying it has) but with money involved, when is more likely than if.

I'd simply like the power to be wielded a little more solemnly.

 

[Ball Python Cafe]

especially if you are burying a guy that seemed to be a darn good guy to me.

So look at it this way, at least if you ever get thrown up on the thread, at least I wouldnt be scared to stick up for ya! =)

 

[RichsBallPythons]

Of course I do.



The BOI section is without a doubt a benefit to everyone! But I question the obvious joviality in which the 'good guys' relish destroying someone that has me concerned. The power this forum has on peoples lives is a powerful double edged sword. Get it right and save 1,000s of people from at best a very disappointing situation, at worst a transaction mistake that destroys your breeding projects, your income, hopes and dreams. Get it wrong and you have destroyed a person's life in this business and the family he/she feeds. That's serious and I have seen it taken far too lightly in this thread. Throughout this thread I've seen virtual high-fives going on between posts! Are you kidding me? You are destroying someone's livelihood with each post. It real and personal. High-fives, fun and playfulness have no place here. Its like a funeral to me. After reading this and the gleeful manner in which each nail was driven into the coffin, I felt like the group as whole was just losing perspective maybe of just how powerful this forum is.

This goes both ways. You buy something this guy sells that was advertises Falsely with wrong genetics will cost you money in the long run. I buy a snake its taking money away from my house to further more projects to help bring more funds into the house and keep food on my table. When things dont prove out cause i bought something that was sold mislabeled, you get pissed. Warning others to not buy anything from someone who is willing to sell like this guy is will help save families from wasting their money

They destroyed their own livelihood selling mis labeled snakes, fake hets and taking peoples hard earned money away from their families without any remorse. They deserve everything thats posted about them to make sure they either shape up or get out.

 

[colorfulcollection]

Of course I do.

However, its the enthusiastic feeding manner in which these facts are stated in this thread that really leaves such a foul taste in my mouth. There is just a difference in stating facts/making your point and what this thread contains.

The BOI section is without a doubt a benefit to everyone! But I question the obvious joviality in which the 'good guys' relish destroying someone that has me concerned. The power this forum has on peoples lives is a powerful double edged sword. Get it right and save 1,000s of people from at best a very disappointing situation, at worst a transaction mistake that destroys your breeding projects, your income, hopes and dreams. Get it wrong and you have destroyed a person's life in this business and the family he/she feeds. That's serious and I have seen it taken far too lightly in this thread. Throughout this thread I've seen virtual high-fives going on between posts! Are you kidding me? You are destroying someone's livelihood with each post. It real and personal. High-fives, fun and playfulness have no place here. Its like a funeral to me. After reading this and the gleeful manner in which each nail was driven into the coffin, I felt like the group as whole was just losing perspective maybe of just how powerful this forum is.

Jeanean, you are new too. What if you had a negative post made about you from someone you had never heard of (completely made up)? This group would be sniffing you out immediately. They would have gone through your site with a fine tooth comb already and posted anything they saw that was questionable. Look at how quickly I was added to folks bad lists. I don't have a SINGLE unhappy customer EVER and I don't plan on ever having one if I can help it. But I'm on big breeders do not sell or buy from list. Don't you think that is a little too powerful or being wielded a little too easily? Lord forbid that you ever make one of these folks mad. They could make one post and destroy you. I see most of them are in on the same groups. Think this enormous power would ever get abused (not saying it has) but with money involved, when is more likely than if.

I'd simply like the power to be wielded a little more solemnly.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that he CONFESSED he did these things on top of all the proof..This isnt just some made up false statements.

 

[colorfulcollection]

There are ways to redeam yourself..It may take time, and an apology..and would consist of making things right...I have also seen others send snakes, and you can pay for them after they arrive safe and to your liking. Yes we all run the risk of an unhappy customer, as does everyone in life, but when the bad outways the good. It says something. When you compare 3 or 4 serious complaints and only 2 good transactions. The likelyhood of another person having a bad experience is higher. This goes for any business.

I would be hurt if someone made something up that wasnt true, but if its not true they wont have proof and I may even have proof that they are false. I shouldnt need someone to stand up for me, my business doings should speak for themselves. I own a pet grooming business also, I understand how it works...maybe in time you will understand too.

 

[colorfulcollection]

I think you read to much into the high fives. They are not about the destruction of a person, but about the good and honest sticking together, and digging up the facts to stop those that lie and hurt our hobby.

 

[dchristensen]

So, back to my story...

I responded to this ad on KS.com

Females! 300gram Pewter Ghost, 400gram Pewter Bee, 700grams Pewter
Mississippi, Ship Nationwide
Posted by Michael Harshbarger (Contact Me!) on July 02, 2011 at 13:35:25
Registered PetHobbyist User since 2010-06-24

All 3 of these girls are live rat eaters and growing fast!

0.1 Pewter ghost $2500/obo
0.1 Pewter Bee $2700
0.1 Pewter $1000/obo

Thanks for looking!
-Michael Harshbarger
228.216.1668
________________________________________

The following was added on 07/02/11
Updated weights:

Pewter ghost 478grams
Pewter bee 468grams
Pewter 785grams

The Picture from the ad showed:

But, this is the snake I received.

Notice the markings on the back near the head...

Clearly 2 different animals. Of course, when I put her on the scale, my 785 g Pewter was 606 g

More bait and switch or flipping or whatever he wants to call his unethical behavior!!!

 

[dchristensen]

So, anyone got advice on how to post a pic? I set up a flickr account and paste in the image button above...

Insert the link and post and nothing comes up...

 

[R. Eventide]

This goes both ways. You buy something this guy sells that was advertises Falsely with wrong genetics will cost you money in the long run. I buy a snake its taking money away from my house to further more projects to help bring more funds into the house and keep food on my table. When things dont prove out cause i bought something that was sold mislabeled, you get pissed. Warning others to not buy anything from someone who is willing to sell like this guy is will help save families from wasting their money

They destroyed their own livelihood selling mis labeled snakes, fake hets and taking peoples hard earned money away from their families without any remorse. They deserve everything thats posted about them to make sure they either shape up or get out.

You're missing Ball Python Cafe's point. She's not saying that scammers don't deserve messing up their own livelihood. She's saying that if we on the BOI don't keep ourselves in check and wrongly accuse people, we can easily destroy an innocent person's livelihood. That's the power of the BOI. (She's not necessarily referring to the guy in this thread; she's speaking generally.) And no offense to anyone here, but she's not the only one who has seen the shark-like feeding frenzy of which she's speaking. I rarely come to the BOI anymore unless I'm looking someone up because it has become a place where one person sniffs blood in the water and then everyone else jumps in, usually without stopping to think for themselves or consider what's been said. Yes, Webslave has tightened the reins on what constitutes an infraction, which is a great start for improving the reputation of the BOI, but this place still has a long way to go.

Also, don't get on her case for saying she had a good experience. That is what the BOI is for. Yes, Genefreak has done some very shady things, but that doesn't mean someone who had a good experience can't come and post about her good experience. Bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things. I've seen both here. These threads are for people to read and make their own decisions as to whether to do business with someone. Bashing someone for using the BOI for its intended purpose only hurts the BOI's reputation.

 

[Shadera]

So, anyone got advice on how to post a pic? I set up a flickr account and paste in the image button above...

Insert the link and post and nothing comes up...

Sorry, I don't have any advice for posting pictures off flickr, I usually use photobucket or attach to the post with the upload attachment. To do that - Just below the area where you put your text in, if you scroll down you'll see a button to "manage attachments". You can upload files off your computer there.

Here's a link to the album in the meantime:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66645365@N04/with/6067950980/

That's definitely not the same animal. Not even close. Did you tell him specifically that this isn't the animal from the ad and you're not happy with it? If you did, what was his response?

Good luck, hopefully you'll get some resolution.

 

[dchristensen]

Sorry, I don't have any advice for posting pictures off flickr, I usually use photobucket or attach to the post with the upload attachment. To do that - Just below the area where you put your text in, if you scroll down you'll see a button to "manage attachments". You can upload files off your computer there.

Here's a link to the album in the meantime:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66645365@N04/with/6067950980/

That's definitely not the same animal. Not even close. Did you tell him specifically that this isn't the animal from the ad and you're not happy with it? If you did, what was his response?

Here is another try with the attachment method. The first pic is from the ad. The second is the snake I received. The third is the snake I received on the scale showing that she wasn't 785 g.

I did tell him it isn't the same snake as the ad and his respoinse was that he attached the picture of the black pastel pewter instead of the cinny pewter.

He also said the snake lost weight from 785 to 606 g by not eating for a couple of weeks while we were waiting for the heat to cool off. I had her for 2 weeks without her eating a thing and she lost a total of 8 g to 598 g. He couldn't explain how a snake could lose 179 g from not eating for 2 weeks at his place and would only lose 8 g in 2 weeks at my house.

Clearly, he saw that I was interested and then scammed me thinking I wouldn't know any better.

The problem is now he says he won't refund my money (or pay for any shipping) until he has her back in his possession. However, he scammed me once so I don't trust that if I send her back that I'll ever see any money!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

You're missing Ball Python Cafe's point. She's not saying that scammers don't deserve messing up their own livelihood. She's saying that if we on the BOI don't keep ourselves in check and wrongly accuse people, we can easily destroy an innocent person's livelihood.

Sorry but NO. That is not what she stated.

Wow I purchased a ball from Genefreak339 and it went perfectly. Ive gone back and read this entire post thread. This is a freaken witch hunt! You say Show us pics,,he shows you pics,,, then you say well that could have been photoshopped. Geesh what is wrong with you folks. He has jumped through every hoop you have thrown at him and admitted some mistakes. Wow you guys are like vicious rabid dogs.

Also, don't get on her case for saying she had a good experience. That is what the BOI is for. Yes, Genefreak has done some very shady things, but that doesn't mean someone who had a good experience can't come and post about her good experience. Bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things. I've seen both here. These threads are for people to read and make their own decisions as to whether to do business with someone. Bashing someone for using the BOI for its intended purpose only hurts the BOI's reputation.

She didn't just come in a state she had a good experience. Instead she attacked everyone as "rabid dogs" like somehow he is being unfairly prosecuted. No, she wasn't speaking in general but with regards to this thread.

So Jacqulyn, lets take the last situation in this thread. Post #330 was the answers he gave to where the snake in the last topic originated from. We now know its true origin. He lied repeatedly in his ads. Deleted them and gave a total different history of where the animal came from and what it was.

That makes him dishonest. That is the short and sweet of it. He is liar and just because YOU had a great deal with him means nothing to that point.


Krystal, she is the one that came on here bashing with her first post. To then state people can't react to her attack on the other members of this forum or its bashing seems quit one sided. She is the one that came on attacked people because she had a good experience with him. People didn't attacked her for it, she came on with both guns a blazing.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

especially if you are burying a guy that seemed to be a darn good guy to me.

So look at it this way, at least if you ever get thrown up on the thread, at least I wouldnt be scared to stick up for ya! =)

Just as people shouldn't discount you good transaction and accept it on face value the same should be given to those who haven't had great interactions with the individual. This wasn't a case of people disregarding your great transaction but you coming on here and attacking and disregarding everyone else because of your experience.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This is all his answers to the history of the same animal he posted for sale here.

I never said this was a lemon blast axanthic just said I compared it to one in daytona. I'm sorry you fellas think this is "fishy" for whatever reason but I am stating what I was told.

Originally Posted by Genefreak339
I did not ask when I bought him. If I knew that would be the first thing in the description.

Oh and patents were from axanthic to "crazy pin" het axanthic.

Originally Posted by Genefreak339
This male was from an Axanthic female to a male Lemon Blast het axanthic. The price is for an axanthic pinstripe so you might be getting an added extra for free. The pics dont do him justice! He is by far the lighest axanthic pin I have seen and does have a good bit of yellow blushing. He is around 300grams and will breed this upcoming season. Asking $5000 or best reasonable offer!

Oh and patents were from axanthic to "crazy pin" het axanthic.

Axanthic Pinstipe!
Got this guy at the daytona expo last year. He is AMAZING looking! Has been breeding and on and off feed. Hes back on this past 3 weeks and growing up to be a real stunner!

Pics are as a baby Ive seem to have deleted the updated pics. Ill get some new ones to anyone interested.
Asking $2500 or best offer/trade

Taking offers on the AMAZING ball python!!! This is one SMOKIN axanthic pin! Showed him to many reputable breeders in Daytona and many said he looks like an IMG (Increase Melanin Gene) Pinstripe, also compared him to an axanthic lemon blast hatchling and this guy was lighter than it!!!! This is by far the brighest axanthic I have EVER SEEN!!! Dont want to sell and wish I could see what great things this guy could make but times are tough. He is 342grams and pounding live rats. PM me with all offers.
-Michael

Yep, liar!

 

[Ball Python Cafe]

I'd like to state for the record I did come on here pretty upset after reading this thread for the first time. My feathers were ruffled and my point unclear as it could have been. I would like to report #1 I did have a very positive experience with genefreak. #2 I did have time to calm and hopefully make my point with my last post. Pls refer to that post as my point if you have not read it yet. Now I have said my piece and #3 hope the BOI is the better for saying it. I do feel the BOI is a good thing overall. I hope it continues to help people. I also hope with contributors making posts in a factual manner, without the obvious joviality shown in this thread, the BOI will remain strong and come across to new folks as a positive addition to the herp world, instead of vat of acid. I also hope the BOI is closely watched for potential abuse. Thanks for listening.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Hi Jacqulyn: First, welcome to the hobby. Ball pythons are addicting and you'll be craving for a new box to come in the mail before you know it.

Second, I do understand why you feel the way you do having just joined Fauna and not knowing anyone or the past -- however, being very new to this hobby, you haven't been around to witness some of the destruction that some bad eggs have caused in this hobby. People who have purposely lied, misled, and dealt harm to others that resulted in thousands upon thousands of dollars lost, dead animals, entire collections ruined. In my case, a breeder that I had a great first transaction with, then decided to purchase again from, ended up infecting my collection with a horrific virus that resulted in all of my animals dying or having to be euthanized, equipment burned, and being out $20,000 in animals, equipment, and extensive veterinary bills. If you want to read about the entire story, click the link in my signature. All from one shady person. There were others also affected, despite this guy having good transactions too. He was an animal flipper with improper quarantine. Then there was another VERY big name person in this hobby that sold hundreds of fake expensive hets to numerous people, that ended up not proving out and costing all the victims thousands of dollars in the long run. There have been dozens of others that have done similar things. After so many years of seeing our fellow hobbyists go through these losses (and for some, enduring it ourselves), we've become fiercely defensive and will not tolerate any kind of shady behavior whatsoever. If we see it, we'll call it out so that no one else goes through what we have. This is a hobby where a lot of people put every extra penny into their collections, hours upon hours of care and effort and sacrifice, some have mortgaged their homes to pay for animals and equipment, others have taken on 2nd jobs, and for some their entire income is based on their breeding business. For all of us, these animals are our love and our passion. So the potential threat of one shady transaction is huge, and could be very damaging.

Fauna has been around for about 10 years I believe, along with the BOI. I myself have been here since 2004, so 7 years now. The majority of the hobby knows of the BOI, how it functions, what the purpose is, etc. Rich and the moderators have actually tightened up the rules over the past year, to prevent unnecessary flaming and abuse, and absolute dedication to facts. False claims are not permitted, there needs to be proof. So it isn't some free forum where anybody can say anything they want without anything to back it up.

Michael has been brought into question for many reasons, all of which based on his actions, his dealings with people, his quarantine procedures (or lack thereof), and his statements (many of which lies and flip-flopping). You say he has jumped through hoops, but all he has really done is provide half-functioning pictures, back-tracked statements, multiple deleted/edited ads, and has ignored questions asked of him.

Here is a summary of his lies and back-tracking/flip-flopping regarding the IMG/Axanthic/Lemonblast Axanthic Pinstripe he was selling:

Thanks Dennis, I appreciate the reply. I was like, wait, what? LOL!

Soooooo let's see if I have this right:

1. Michael bought the snake on August 21st, the first day of the Daytona show, then decided to flip it and sell it that very same day without any kind of quarantine. Then the next day, he brought it back to the Daytona show to show it off to anyone who might want to see/buy it. Then later, he decided to keep it.
   
2. He first claimed the snake was an axanthic pinstripe possible axanthic lemon blast. Then he changed it to axanthic pinstripe. Then changed it again to IMG pinstripe. Then he said he never said it was any of those, and said it was sold to him as an axanthic pinstripe and he is not guaranteeing that it is any of the above, just stating what it was sold to him as.
   
3. He first claimed the parents were female axanthic to male lemon blast het axanthic. Then he said the parents were female axanthic to "crazy unknown" pinstripe het axanthic. Then he said he had no idea what the parents were and said he did not ask the seller when he bought it, and if he did that would be the first thing he'd put in his ad.
   
4. He has created, edited, and deleted about 8-10 different ads for this snake, with the details changing every single time. When moderators re-opened his ads to provide proof of things said/written, he re-deleted them.
   
5. The price has changed from $5,000 to $3,000 to $2,500 to "taking offers".

Did I miss anything? Michael claims he has not hid anything from anyone, and has not lied or left out any details. All of the above suggests far differently. Considering the above, as well as the past info in this thread of him selling deformed animals without disclosing the deformities beforehand, stealing pictures from other breeders to advertise animals for sale, flipping animals without any kind of quarantine, and offering animals for sale that he doesn't even have in his possession yet...I HIGHLY suggest anyone to think twice before buying anything from this guy, and stay far away.

Notice the bolded part at the end. That is a summary of everything else that we have taken issue with and called him out on. i.e. selling deformed and misrepresented animals, using other breeders' pictures to advertise animals that do not belong to him (the caramel albino for instance), advertising animals for sale using pictures that don't belong to him WHILE he doesn't even own the animal yet and it is being advertised for sale on the original breeder's website, buying animals and flipping them within 24 hours without any quarantine (the Axanthic Pin bought during Daytona a year ago), selling animals then re-listing them for sale before fully refunding the original buyer (the piebald a year ago), lying about the origin of animals, lying about the genetics of animals, lying about who animals were purchased from (I contacted the claimed seller and he confirmed Michael lied and that he had already told him to stop telling people he bought it from him -- e-mails are posted in this thread), and more. Oh, and the fact that when his lies are pointed out with proof, he PM's the person that provided it to call them a b*tch (which he did to me). That is NOT the behavior of a proper businessperson. I mean, this is a laundry list a mile long. Can you seriously tell me that after reading all of this, seeing all of his lies and sneaky, shady behavior, and the proof positive of it all right here in this thread, you can honestly still claim he's a "Good Guy" and that you see nothing wrong? You got lucky with your transaction. Put yourself on the other end of some of these issues listed in this thread -- such as if you'd received your snakes with kinks in their tails that he did not disclose before purchasing, or he took your money then re-listed your snake for sale without refunding you first, or sold you a snake that he claimed was a specific combo of genetics with certain parentage, and you find out later that it isn't that at all and wasn't purchased from the person he said it was, and had not been quarantined whatsoever after having been exposed to the largest show in the country. How would you feel if those happened to you? That's what you need to think about when judging a person's reputability, and really look at everything, the whole picture. That is why we are as defensive and critical as we are.

You have to be VERY careful who you do business with in this hobby, and be aware/skeptical of everything. Do your research, ask for references, document all communication, save e-mails, etc. I would hate to see you go through what some of us have and lose your budding business due to one bad deal.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Also, regarding the "virtual high-fives" between posters on threads like this...it isn't that we're happy that we've knocked down someone's reputation. We're not "vicious rabid dogs" out for the thrill of the hunt. We're simply relieved that we've exposed another potential/actual bad egg in the hobby and saved people the cost of getting scammed, and possibly saved animals' lives. We pat people on the back for providing good intel, documentation, proof, etc. that verify the issues at hand, as that is what is most important. Our hobby is constantly under scrutiny by the public and the government, and one bad guy can put us in a negative light and really ruin it for everyone. So it needs to be taken seriously, and when we are able to expose and prevent it, it's something to be happy about.

 

[dchristensen]

refunding $$$

Michael says he is going to make up for the differences by refunding me some money.

When I get confirmation that the money has been refunded, I will update this thread.

-Dale

 

[hhmoore]

Well, if that is acceptable to you, then I'm glad he's taking the steps to satisfy you.
He should consider himself lucky that you were open to the idea of accepting the cinny pewter when you purchased a black pewter - not everybody would be.

 

[dchristensen]

Well, if that is acceptable to you, then I'm glad he's taking the steps to satisfy you.
He should consider himself lucky that you were open to the idea of accepting the cinny pewter when you purchased a black pewter - not everybody would be.

Actually, I was supposed to be purchasing a cinny pewter but she was supposed to be 785 g and showed up at 606 g.

I will let everybody know the results.