Bad Guy GIOVANNI GARCIA.....You have to see this !!

[caffeinecynic]

I would like to see Mr. Garcia's side.

If the story that Dr. Brunner is posting here is 100% truthful (which I have some trouble believing, due to his history - yes, I did read the previous thread), then Mr. Garcia is definitely 100% in the wrong and should be avoided. But...

I can't help but think that it's remarkably suspicious. The box is definitely packed wrong, it's not the right kind of box to ship that kind of animal, the temperatures were bad, and as some have stated, the animal looks like it may not have even been alive going into the box.

Which leads me to wonder if that's really the animal that came out of that box, and if that animal was actually the one shipped to Dr. Brunner or not. It does not look like Mr. Garcia is attempting to deny anything, but Facebook is a poor medium for defending your practices in. I would like to hear what he has to say and I hope he comes to Fauna to explain his side.

 

[Prahanien]

Has anyone messaged Garcia to ask him to come to the thread? Any response?

 

[Gastro3003]

That's the Box as it was opened outside FedEx

Just look at his FS ad on FB and u can see it's the same animal!!!!

And not only is he aware of this thread .. HE posted a link to my " Bad guy " thread on Facebook!!!

He's aware

Same animal

Good night everyone ...

I'm not trying to make friends here... just letting u guys know what happened ...

Gotta run...starting a night shift...

 

[Cletus Marley]

The pictures look pretty bad and on the surface this looks horrible, but I have a hard time believing anything this guy says after reading that 44 page nightmare about the tortoise. This is someone well versed in shenanigans. Curious if he will have his nurse monitor this thread while he is in surgery. Perhaps Parrots of the World will do the necropsy. Maybe it was just karma dropping in to say hello.

 

[Lucille]

Hi. Just for the record parrots of the world called in a Veterinary friend who did all the work.

You never came up with that excuse throughout the entire past thread, and I believe you are making it up now. I will send the thread to the vet board so they can have a look.

Post 74 is eye opening. You are threatening legal action again (those who read the last thread will recall that some of the legal threats you made there were laughable), and demanding money, all after repeatedly saying here that

I want nothing now

Just to tell the story

I'm good

Just a warning

Don't need his money

Thanks

 

[juliasara]

Yes if telling him to ship was wrong then I take responsibility for that. I misunderstood SYRs service ..

How can you misunderstand the services offered by SYR? Their site makes it pretty clear how it works and anyone who has ever shipped or received a reptile knows they are a broker between the shipper and fedex. SYR doesn't actually deliver your reptile to you, they never touch your package. I'm not sure why anyone would ship this time of year anyway, it's clear Brunner pushed the seller to ship so he definitely holds part of the blame. If either of them went to SYR site they would have seen this before being able to do anything. If I saw either warning I wouldn't have shipped, I wouldn't have anyway because of temps but even if temps were above 40° I wouldn't have because of those warnings.

 

[juliasara]

If parrots of the world called in a vet why wouldn't the vet use his own letterhead? The other vet was never mentioned in the other thread, your just digging a deeper hole for yourself here, if your going to lie at least keep the story straight.

 

[Lucille]

My guess is that reality is one of the following two scenarios:

it's clear Brunner pushed the seller to ship

Please note that even if Brunner threatened and bullied the seller to ship, the seller still would be culpable if he actually did so. Brunner is a walking threat machine but it is all hot air, but I can see someone being disconcerted by his bullying if they are not familiar with it. IF this is the correct scenario, the seller should have said no.
Brunner's attempts to tar SYR are laughable, I certainly don't believe that Brunner 'misunderstood' their service.

Which leads me to wonder if that's really the animal that came out of that box, and if that animal was actually the one shipped to Dr. Brunner or not.

Brunner could have easily posted the ad for comparison, he has not done so.

The posts below might help clarify which scenario it was, but of course Brunner lied about posting them last night, hoping no doubt that the promise to do so would quiet any further requests for the communications he has.

You should provide all communications with the seller prior to shipping.

I will later tonight ..

It seems rather than posting facts he has, (communications and the ad picture), Brunner's tactic is to keep on posting pictures of a dead animal and hammer readers into make assumptions.

Brunner, enough hot air. Post the communications and the ad picture screen shot.

 

[Kristi23]

How can you misunderstand the services offered by SYR? Their site makes it pretty clear how it works and anyone who has ever shipped or received a reptile knows they are a broker between the shipper and fedex. SYR doesn't actually deliver your reptile to you, they never touch your package. I'm not sure why anyone would ship this time of year anyway, it's clear Brunner pushed the seller to ship so he definitely holds part of the blame. If either of them went to SYR site they would have seen this before being able to do anything. If I saw either warning I wouldn't have shipped, I wouldn't have anyway because of temps but even if temps were above 40° I wouldn't have because of those warnings.

Thank you for posting this. I kept thinking about his comments about SYR. It sounds like he's blaming them.

If you push a service, I would think you would understand how they work. It is very obvious with all the shipping companies that they are used for the shipping labels. SYR has insurance, but animals must be shipped according to their guidelines. It is very clear on the page with what temps they allow shipping in. SYR sells boxes (from another company), but you can use any appropriate shipping box that is insulated. They never see the package sent. The seller still boxes and ships the animals. I see nothing on any shipping company site that would be confusing.

 

[Pasodama]

To play a bit of devil's advocate re. the "can use any box" comment. It is not, necessarily, a bad thing.

To ship a reptile, it does not have to be boxes sold by SYR and the like.
Someone can ship a reptile in any other box as long as it is lined with well fitted insulation (and appropriately marked on outside of box).
Heck, one could even use a styrofoam cooler placed, well fit, inside a box.
Although, if I were to make that comment ("can use any box"), I would follow it with an explanation, of what I meant, but everyone does not do/say things the same way someone else might.
If there are no explanations/directions, following the comment ("can use any box"), perhaps the buyer simply assumes the seller knows what is meant, by that, or that the seller can use common sense on an appropriate shipping method with a different box (of appropriate size).
________

I will say that it is very lame for the seller to state that the buyer made/forced him to ship and for the seller to use that as any kind of excuse.
The seller has every right to, and the power to, not ship if a demanding buyer wants it done "now".
I, myself, would rather lose a sale, and do a refund (if it had to come to that), instead of caving to a buyer's demands that would place animal/s in a dangerous situation.

If shipped exactly as has been shown/stated, and if the monitor was alive at the time, it is deplorable and cruel.
If the monitor was shipped, already dead prior to shipping, then that clearly points to a scam.

One of the other problems, with this transaction, is that, in the past, the buyer/OP has been shown to have a shady, &/or questionable, character.
We do not know, with absolute certainty, that he, himself, may be "pulling something" or not.
However, if the OP is not "pulling something", himself, we should not forget about the person (seller) that this thread is actually about.
I understand that people (myself included) enjoy how karma can be a "female dog", for someone else who has done a misdeed, but that does not make it right for someone else to come along and conduct an unrelated misdeed upon that person.

Though I, initially, thought I knew the basics, of what had actually occurred with this transaction, I am, now, not absolutely certain. Definitely not about all of the details or if another possible scenario actually exists.

The communications, between buyer and seller, is needed in its entirety.
Plus a screenshot of the seller's Ad for this monitor (esp. if there is a photo).

~~~~

 

[Pasodama]

Correction: The quote is supposed to be "ship it in any box" not "use any box".

~~~~

 

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

Hey everyone, I sure am sad to see the result of this monitor shipment. That was a gorgeous blackthroat, and those aren't easy lizards to come by these days.

I have skimmed the thread here. I can't see anything on FB right now (literally nothing) because a few days ago someone reported my profile as fraud/not a real person so I had to send in a copy of my driver's license for the FB "review" process and am still waiting for that review process to complete. Very frustrating.

At ShipYourReptiles we shut off insurance for live shipments last week and encouraged folks not to ship. Our last suggested day for shipping live reptiles for the year was Tuesday, and still insurance was shut off. With holiday package volume, the system just gets so bogged down, delays go from normally 2-3% to currently 40% of packages.

With temps, as has been pointed out, our low temp cutoff is 38F for a daytime HIGH in either origin or destination. Anything lower than that and you should wait to ship.

You can't just "use any box". You don't have to use our industry standard packaging, but your packaging has to meet or exceed our SYR Shipping Standards. That includes a like-new thick cardboard box with an equivalent burst rating. That means no USPS boxes (which are free, but very thin, and don't meet the standard) and no Amazon boxes (also too thin).

It also means at least 3/4" insulation, which is required by both SYR and FedEx. It frustrates me to this day that packaging suppliers still sell 1/2" insulated boxes so folks can save three nickels, when that insulation doesn't meet the FedEx requirement. (proper insulation provides more than thermal protection, it also provides important structural support to protect the package from crushing or piercing)

But in this case, the insulation was thick enough. I can't see enough of the cardboard box to tell thickness. But the size of the box is a problem. It should have been a larger box. That is too small for such a good sized lizard.

But that isn't what killed the lizard. And I don't believe it was shipped dead. (I skimmed speculation/claims about that but I don't know what it is based on)

I saw that 4(?) heat packs were used. From my experience with hundreds of thousands of shipments, that is your DOA culprit, plain and simple. In that size box, only one heat pack should have been used, and it should have been a 40+ hour heat pack.

I don't know if this box had 40's, or 20's, or hand warmers, but anything more than one heat pack would have been a death sentence for the lizard.

The number one cause of DOAs is overuse/misuse of heat packs. Ignorance leads people to think (even reptile people) that reptiles like it HOT, so the more heat packs the better!

That is completely erroneous. Reptiles can handle cool temps much better than they can handle hot temps. Most reptiles can handle a dip into the 50'sF, but most will die if kept for a day with an ambient temp of 95F+.

Four heat packs in that box would have raised the temp to 130F+, in that small of a box, it could have been 150F+.

The intense heat is what caused the DOA, the discoloration, the deterioration, the rotting smell. The animal was literally decomposing before it was even picked up.

Misuse of heat packs causes DOAs. I would say 90% of the DOAs we see are avoidable and caused my misuse of heat packs. (keep in mind that DOAs are less than one half of one percent of all live shipments, most shippers pack and ship appropriately and follow the guidelines)

I don't think the lizard was shipped maliciously, and certainly not with the intent to kill it. It was ignorance. Ignorance of proper shipping, heat pack use, and standards.

Ignorance that didn't want to read and heed the warnings plastered all over the site, and through the booking process, TOS, and in the FAQ.

A hurriedness to ship the animal out in aggressively cold temps during an aggressively busy time of year.

Very very sad to see. And one of my all time favorite reptile species, that makes it harder to see for me personally.

I don't have the tracking number for the shipment. I don't see Garcia's name as an account when I just looked. So I don't know what was paid or when.

I don't think Gio shipped it with the intention for it to die. Not at all. I think he didn't bother to read any of the site directions or warnings or guidelines, and didn't bother to ask SYR staff for any insight or help.

As far as him issuing a refund, that's going to come down to his integrity, any promises he made or didn't make, and his reputation as a seller. From skimming, it sounds like it was a "you get what you get" kind of sale, which is not uncommon from a private seller.

From skimming his scant replies, sounds like a refund is unlikely. I hope the buyer and seller get something worked out, but in the end, a gorgeous and hard to find lizard died due to ignorance (a lack of knowledge) and poor effort. It was totally avoidable, and that is a shame.

 

[robyn@Pro Exotics]

I didn't complete my thought on heat pack use and heating the box. It's an important point that I should briefly expand on.

Heat packs shouldn't be making the box hot. Your goal is NOT to heat the box. Whatever temperature you are shipping in, your goal is to keep the box temperate. You don't want it to get hot OR cold.

Heat packs are used to prevent the box from getting too cold. That is an important distinction from "heating up the box".

Multiple heat packs in a normal size box make the box hot. In many cases REALLY hot, and that is what causes DOAs.

If you can keep your box temperate, your reptile will arrive safely (assuming no other hazards or nonsense).

Shipping in winter is actually easier than shipping in summer, because it is easy to double up insulation (a great winter shipping technique) and use a heat pack to keep the box from getting cold, whereas it is very difficult to ship to/from Phoenix or Las Vegas when it is 95F, or 105F. There is no easy way to keep the heat OFF the box in those conditions. Cold packs don't last long at all. Summer shipping is def more difficult than winter shipping.

Whatever the season or weather, we have temperature and heat pack use guidelines at ShipYourReptiles that give everyone the best chance of success.

SYR FAQ- Regulating the temperature of your package (and heat pack use guidelines)

We have a great staff available to answer questions or walk you through the process step by step if it is your first time. Proper shipping information and guidelines are readily available, easy to find. Which makes a DOA like this so frustrating. Easily avoidable.

 

[tlmoon]

Thanks for posting that info, Robyn. I think Brunner is trying to deflect any blame for insisting on shipping by somehow making it into SYR's fault. Which it clearly is not. Very upsetting to think how that monitor suffered because two supposed responsible adults made very poor decisions.

Did I see in the additional FB screenshots that Brunner sent the paypal "Gift"? I'm not familiar with that but if it's like friends and family there is another red flag, on both parties. From previous threads, we know Brunner pays a lot of bills through paypal so I can't imagine he doesn't know the different options.

Brunner is Brunner, but at least I'm glad we are aware of this seller. He is another one to avoid, since he does not seem to be denying shipping like that and his responses the the outcome don't have a shred of remorse that his actions caused the suffering and death of this animal.

 

[Pasodama]

You can't just "use any box". You don't have to use our industry standard packaging, but your packaging has to meet or exceed our SYR Shipping Standards. That includes a like-new thick cardboard box with an equivalent burst rating. That means no USPS boxes (which are free, but very thin, and don't meet the standard) and no Amazon boxes (also too thin).

It also means at least 3/4" insulation, which is required by both SYR and FedEx.

In my post, I did not mention appropriate box, or insulation, thickness.
One of those times where I assumed(?) people would know not to use a flimsy/thin box and to use, at the very minimum, 3/4 insulation.
Visualized, in my mind, what is appropriate, to use, but, alas, I should have known better. Not everyone knows the minimum standards and ... nobody can read my mind. LoL
Am very glad that you mentioned box/insulation thickness.

~~~~

 

[Pasodama]

Did I see in the additional FB screenshots that Brunner sent the paypal "Gift"? I'm not familiar with that but if it's like friends and family there is another red flag, on both parties. From previous threads, we know Brunner pays a lot of bills through paypal so I can't imagine he doesn't know the different options

Yes, Brunner did say he sent payment, as "gift", and, yes, it is basically the same as "friends & family".
Due to Brunner's wording/statements, he does know the different options and the consequences of sending money as "gift"/"friends & family".
A rather foolish decision he made.

~~~~

 

[Lucille]

Thank you Robyn for coming here and giving your expertise. There have been thousands of views of this thread and likely thousands more to come.
I hope every single person who reads this thread, reads your posts closely.
And I hope sellers will stand up for the health of their critters, and buyers will not try to insist on sub par shipping, or to to insist that someone ship if he/she is not comfortable with doing so.
I think there was fault on both sides, and the lizard paid for it with its life.


I would like to see all the communications that led up to this sale.

 

[Lucille]

I also think that a picture of the lizard in the ad should still be posted by Brunner. I think that it is not too much to ask, to request proof that the lizard that is shown dead is the same lizard that was purchased, given Brunner's history. Even if Brunner insisted on having the critter shipped, Giovanni should have said no, but confirming the identity of the deceased would seem to be a sensible step here.

 

[anwst159]

For those of you looking for the identity of this black throat monitor, take a close look at the animal advertised here. In particular, the third picture in the ad. In addition, isn't it ironic that this animal is posted for sale in Chicago, which is also where Mr. Garcia lives.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584322&highlight=black+throat

 

[Dracorex5]

It's really great to hear from SYR here. My hognoses were sent from california to me via SYR and I was beyond impressed with the quality they enforce in their policies. This was a horrid misuse of what I consider to be an AWESOME service that we reptile keepers (especially those of us who don't ship often and can't get the live shipping assurances that reptile focused businesses achieve) should really appreciate. This thread is just one foul thing after the other. Both parties are to blame for the tragic death of this beautiful and obviously once-healthy animal ( even passed the bloat and ulcers you can see a really magnificent animal)