Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[tool66]

Here is a response from glen via email (I do forward all posts to him thru email) if you have a response please address it to him, not me, and I will forward it to him. Thank you.

Zane, yes, I have had the snake for a week and a half and have managed to handle it about every other day. No, the snake has not bitten me. It hasn't even shown any signs of being semi-aggresive. But as far as Rachel not getting the chance to send you pictures, it's because I haven't been back since. I am letting the snake acclamate to me and his surroundings. As soon as I feel it is ok to transport him back to the store (it has been raining and we have been having flooding in and around surrounding areas all week), I assure you I will take him in to let her take pictures, as I told her I would the day I bought it.
whether i decide to breed the snake or not, is up to me. Whether i do this to promote the eyeless gene or whther i do this to promote the patternless morph, again, is up to me. whether or not i sell the snake, is up to me. if i decide to keep the snake in his current enclosure for the rest of his life, is up to me. I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE SNAKE WILL NOT BE PLACED INTO A FREEZER OR HARMED IN ANYWAY!!!!! THAT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
And simply for the fact that everyone seems to be so interested in me and the snake, i seriously doubt if i will ever get rid of him to anyone.
also, to address the idea of "how do you know if the snake is healthy"....Becuase I've handled enough snakes in my 30 year life span, from wild caught to captive bred to know a healthy snake from a sick one. duh.... This snake IS HEALTHY. If he weren't, I wouldn't have bought him and I seriously doubt if the owner of the store in question would have sold him. that's an insult to a man i consider a friend and a VERY experienced handler.
any hoo...
sorry but, as far as my end of the conversation on this thread goes, continue to discuss and condemn me all you want....i got into to much trouble for spending so much time on the net and at coreys computer here at work yesterday to risk my job again today...so bitch on.....
and who would possibly think that corey and i are the same person...what would be the point of that?
any way......on second thought....the snake is no longer for sale simply because it has gotten so much of a response along with my intentions as to what i will or will not do with the animal....
thanks to everyone for keeping me amused all day yesterday, though...i appreciate it.

 

[Lucille]

I went out of my way to post a reasonable post to let you redeem yourself, Glen. And then you get on here and after so much reasonable input you strut around and say that whether the snake is to be sold or bred is up to you. Instead of reasoning together with the people who have taken their time here, you turn this into some kind of power trip on your part.
What happens is of course up to you. But your reputation is shot, and Corey's, for not taking a stand but instead whimpering about how his snakes are all he can handle, is seriously compromised.

 

[tool66]

who's talking about whimpering? Glen's a big boy, he can make his own decisions. I'm not here to tell him not to breed the snake. It's not my place. I got involved yesterday just for sh!ts and grins but then it got a little crazy. I didn't know I had a reputation in this business to begin with. I was gracefully backing out of the conversation because in the end it has nothing to do with me. I have no problem handling my snakes, I was just trying to lighten the mood and joke around a little bit. Like I said before, I'm not looking to breed snakes so what does it matter? I have a friend that will sell me food whenever I need it and that's all I care about. The well being of my snakes. I don't know why you people insist on attacking me about this subject. We are two completely different people with two different minds. If you don't believe me or question my "ethics" then zane can verify who I am with matt. We both were at the reptile show that he had behind his shop a few months ago. I was the one with the yellow anacondas, glen had the black throat monitor and the 8 1/2 ft argentine. I'm trying to be polite and respect everyone's opinion so I would appreciate it if you could extend the same courtesy.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Zane,

That snake should have been in the freezer the day it was discovered in the clutch from which it originated. The fact that it was not placed there is sad, but to endanger who knows how many generations by even a POSSIBLE breeding is more than irresponsible, in my book. If the animal were mine to do with as I will, I would freeze it. Better that than an entire clutch that resulted from an accidental pairing, which we all know can and does happen.

I understand what you are saying about the animal and its existence. However you also recognize its threat to future generations of scrubs just as I do, or you wouldn't be so adamant about it never being bred. The fact that you and I disagree as to how to assure that no breedings take place should not cause you to question my intelligence and/or ethics ... should it?

 

[tool66]

FROM GLEN:


Lucille you said to freeze the animal...to completely kill the animal....and you reeeeeaaaalllllyyyyyy expect me me to even consider anything you say?
as far as my reputation....what reputation...i work for a corporation processing medical bills....i'm father and a husband before anything else...what reputation do i have to be ruined? believe me, any reputation i had was destroyed by myself long before anything i said yesterday...and it didn't have anything to do with any animals.....
and as far as corey? the snake is mine...not his...you are all attacking a man who has continously stated that IT IS MY SNAKE.....why keep attacking him? leave corey the hell alone...you have something to say about the snake and breeding it....attack me .....
as far as i can see, you are all a bunch of lynch mob bulllies..you have all gained strength in the number of people who have attacked corey and i. i apologized for what i said yesterday. i i apologized for comments i said yesterday.
yet after the entire night and morning, everyone has contiued to harp on this? i've already stated my position....i don't care to keep running around in circles....i have the animals i want....i will continue to buy, sell and trade...i've been doing it for almost 15 years now...nothing you say will stop me.....
i'm advising corey not to forward me anymore of you comments or postings....i'm risking my job which takes the food out of my childrens (and my animals) mouths wasting more time on this....
none of you are worth that....damn...get a life.....

 

[DThomas]

I don't buy he can't post for himself. If he is able to send email then he should be able to post. He needs to start posting for himself, and if not from work, then atleast when he gets home. You posting for him is getting tiresome.

 

[clifford]

funny points...

FROM GLEN:
Lucille you said to freeze the animal...to completely kill the animal....and you reeeeeaaaalllllyyyyyy expect me me to even consider anything you say?

Ok, talk about being ignorant. There is absolutely no possible reason for the snake to be destroyed. The snake is blind, woop-ti-doo. It's nonetheless still an animal. And, personally, you are no better than the person we are questioning.. Why would anyone comment such as thing?

This whole thing is getting silly, but these two quotes blow my mind.

As I've stated before, and hope to maintain, I'm not here to fight...but how can two people that obviously keep carnivorous pets gasp in object horror at Lucille's suggestion of euthenizing an animal?

Um...so killing off perfectly formed mice, rats, chickens or rabbits every time the snake is hungry is just fine because it serves your interests, but even the suggestion of harming a deformed reptile means that she can't possibly have a valid oppinion and shouldn't be listened to?

I've heard the "any life must be protected" argument before, but since you directly contradict it yourselves...maybe you shouldn't make it?

As a side note though, putting a reptile in the freezer isn't a vet board approved form of euthenization...and in my oppinion probably shouldn't be done. Contrary to popular belief, freezing to death isn't a great way to go, and in most states (if reported) could be followed up under animal cruelty laws. (not saying I agree with them necessarily...just that it's a consideration)

The only approved method I can remember reading for snakes is to lance the brain and then quickly destroy the rest of the head. Feel free to correct me on this if I missed something.

Cliff Miller

 

[bpc]

Darrin et. al., you're doing a great job slamming this guy. So this year when you have a 2-headed snake born (an obvious hideous handicap) you'll immediately put it in the freezer right? I mean yeah, sure, people regularly sell two headed animals for 10, 20, 1000 times more than the normal phenotype is worth, but that's a handicap that we just don't want to perpetuate correct?

Fact is, an eyeless snake that has managed to survive to adulthood is rare. It is an oddity. As such, there may in fact, be people out there who might be interested in it. And because it is an oddity, it may very well be worth more. Albinos are an obvious handicap in the wild, yet we seek those like Cortez sought gold.

If the trait is genetic (I doubt that), then the market might actually improve. Imagine genetics professors and zoos having a living example of variation available to show there audiences. If you're not interested in the snake don't buy it. It's his to market and sell as he see's fit. If no one wants it, it won't sell, period.

 

[Wilomn]

I would hazard a guess that a two-headed snake reproducing MORE two headed snakes is far less likely, probably by a factor of several thousand, than it is for an eyeless snake to reproduce more eyeless snakes.

The analogy was a good attempt but just from what has been seen in the last few years the eyeless FAR out number the bi-domed.

Both are deformations.

Perhaps sterilization would cure everyones problems with the possibility of this python breeding. Should be pretty simple to do.

 

[tool66]

thank you brian....

i can't say much because i am at work....
as far as having corey post for me...sorry the server is not allowing me to post myself...as far as doing it a home...i had mentioned before...i have a wife, 4 boys and numerous animals to maintain at home....i don't have to time to argue on my off time over a point that it seems all i will get is criticism and name calling...
but, brian...everything you have just said...i said yesterday...thank you for at least seeing my side...i appreciate it.
sorry gotta get back to work.

glen

 

[Lucille]

Glen- that was a very cute attempt at sympathy when you said you were risking your job to answer these posts. No one is forcing you to post during work hours.
I am a medical professional too Glen, and a single parent that works incredibly hard to put food on the table for my kids. But you know what Glen? I and my family would happily survive on peanut butter sandwiches rather than doing something self serving and immoral to make money, and IMHO breeding that snake or selling it into a situation where it might be bred is simply cruel to future snake generations and can only be seen as self serving. I'm surprised you are in the medical field and can't grasp that.
Anyhow, hopefully the situation is moot because you said a few posts ago that you would not sell it. But after taking in everything you have said, I am not sure how much that means.....

 

[clifford]

Imagine genetics professors and zoos having a living example of variation available to show there audiences. If you're not interested in the snake don't buy it. It's his to market and sell as he see's fit. If no one wants it, it won't sell, period. [/B]

Actually, it's not that difficult to imagine them having a live example, because the difficient gene in question is not at all in short supply. As people have mentioned, this condition is becoming relatively common in albino boas, and has also been documented as genetically inheritable in mice, rats, and fruitflies. (just the ones I know off-hand).

Anyone that wants an eyeless mouse (that is 100% positive to produce more eyeless mice if bred to another eyeless mouse) can obtain one through a lab or university.

However, you're right, in the end it's his snake, and his choice. I don't agree with it, but after all, we all do things other people might not like, understand, or agree with. I'm glad I live in a part of the world where he can choose to do whatever he wants...but on a personal note I hope he doesn't breed it.

Cliff Miller

 

[Darin Chappell]

Thanks for singling me out Brian. However, I am not bashing anyone. I have not personally attacked anyone as I have been, thank you, but I have attacked some of the ideas and sentiments set forth in this discussion!

As for your analogy to bicephalism, I think it is fairly close to this issue from the perspective of the humaneness of allowing the animal to live, and if THAT were the only issue at play here, I would have to agree with you completely. However, that is NOT the only issue being considered.

Bicephalism in snakes is understood as a failed attempt at twin division in the egg, if I am not mistaken. Hence, we are not talking about a congenital birth defect that can be passed on to future generations. However, if it were possible for that happen, and I hatched out a two-headed corn snake this year, you can rest assured that it would be freezer bound rather than permitting it to infect the rest of the corn population.

 

[HerpVenue]

I do not have much time to spend on this thread right now.


so forgive me if something has been brought up already.

in the ad or a response ther after Glen says

I want to study the animal and see the affects of an eyeless existence.

Why is it on sale again?

might be my English as a second language getting in the way......AGAIN

But to me it basically says the animal has no eyes.
You want to study it.
therefore you are selling it and getting rid of it.

HUH ?!?!?


also I have another question

The "defect" as you refer to, my opinion (and quite a few other extremely experienced herpers).

you say you have gotten quite a few good offers.
So I was wondering......why is it on the ads here?
You got all these "extremely experienced keepers" who think its da sh1t. but yet it is still here?

my other question is you have all these experienced keepers who think an eyeless scrub python is the next step in evolution?
Only if the snake lives underground or likes to burrow underground. Otherwise it is only a freak accident of nature. A freak mutation. FREAK. NATURE made an accident.
my point is someone's story does not make sense.

 

[tool66]

More than likely the "deformity" came from the incubation period therefore it probably wouldn't be passed on to future generations of snakes. The snake has no eyes at all. Just scales all of it's head. It doesn't have holes in it's head. There are other patternless scrubs out there, but not an abundance. So what if he did breed the python and he had all healthy, patternless scrubs and sold them? What if it was just a problem w/ the incubation? Like the post earlier, the snake was born w/ 1 eye because of the incubation period, not because of genetics.
If you are so worried about snakes not surviving in the wild and keeping snakes pure, then you all need to do a world wide man hunt and kill every albino, piebald, and patternless snake that exists. Am I wrong?

 

[Darin Chappell]

Yes. Next question.

 

[tool66]

wow, I'm impressed with your discussion skills. Care to explain to me why? You seem to know everything else.

 

[tool66]

From Glen: (and for the record, I don't care if you are tired of me posting for glen)

in response to the issue of why i was saling it....i had put it in to see what offers i wouold get for the patternless as well as the eyeless trait. everything i've seen on the patternless "deformity" ranges....i researched on the eyeless "deformity" as much as i could and got next to no info. by posting it for sale i could at least get a more general response of how much or how little it was worth...

it was when everyone started saying that the animal should be killed. should not be allowed to breed...that i begin remarking about the ability to study it and research the effects of and eyeless species...excuse me if my english wasn't phrased well enough to suffice everyone in making my point.

and as far as nature making the mistake, everyone else i have spoken with including an austin herpetologist and one of my friends who is an expert herper, has not been able to give me a defintive answer as to how it occurs. but both agree that they would be willing to admit that it is more than likely a mutation that occurs in the incubation stages....not to say that this is fact...it isn't...but it would stand to reason that since these don't occur naturally in nature...then the error is mans..not in nature....man has assisted nature in evolving at a more accalerated rate in the past few thousand years (as i would think is obvious by the pollution of descration of the earth, air and seas')....
and at the end of one of my last post, i will reitterate for the cheap seats....THE SNAKE IS NO LONGER FOR SALE......anything that can bring about this much passion over a snake...
i must keep it ......i must breed it!!!!!!!......i must flood the market....nay....THE WORLD!!!!!!!! with as many as i can.....i must create anarchy among all herpers!!!!!!! breed 100's!!!!!!!!!!!!SELL THEM FOR THOUSANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GROW EXTREMELY RICH AND MOVE THE SOUTH OF FRANCE WHILE LAUGHING AT THE DEFECTIVE MUTANTS I HAVE UNLEASHED AS A PLAGUE ONTO THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ANARCHY!!!!!!WORLD DOMINATION!!!!!!!!! GLOBAL DESTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is everyone happy now that my true intentions have been revealed? yes i am the the devil...and i come to do the devils work...dumbasses....

 

[Sasheena]

Don't know who said this:

If the trait is genetic (I doubt that), then the market might actually improve. Imagine genetics professors and zoos having a living example of variation available to show there audiences.

But I found that funny... they make it sound like there are no examples of good simple or complex genetics available to use in classes and in study. Funny!

Hubby is a Science Teacher. When he needed an example of mendelian genetics, I gave him a colony of "het for hairless" mice.... They had 12 babies, and exactly 1/4th (thank you lady luck) turned out hairless. It was a great experiment, and the students had the chance to see it in action. Sure, I did have to pay $10 each for my starter rodents, it was a bit of a problem, and I've since discontinued production of hairless mice, since they had short miserable lives due to their deformity.

And even if we want to keep it with snakes, there are plenty of examples of genetic variation available without having to resort to a poor deformed animal. I don't think it HAS to be euthanized, but I do think it should not be bred.

Darrin, was it you who said you would freeze a two-headed snake... did you mean to say "only if it was proven that it could be genetically passed on." ... just clarifying

 

[Wilomn]

Like the post earlier, the snake was born w/ 1 eye because of the incubation period, not because of genetics.

It seems that you now have CONCLUSIVE evidence that this is not genetic. Could you please enlighten us as to your source for this information? Names, degrees, educational affiliations, etc.


If you are so worried about snakes not surviving in the wild and keeping snakes pure, then you all need to do a world wide man hunt and kill every albino, piebald, and patternless snake that exists. Am I wrong?

Now it seems that you are confused again tool. A pattern MORPH is NOT the same as a GENETIC DEFORMATION.

Here's an example that you should be able to understand. Neither the mother of my children nor I have BLUE eyes. My father and the father of the mother of my children BOTH had blue eyes. Both of my children have blue eyes. They are the BLUE EYED morph of homo sapiens.

I recently was at a school for SEVERLY mentally and physicallly handicaped(P C for DEFORMED) kids. There were several of them there that had NO eyes from birth. While niether parent EXPRESSED this trait themselves, they PASSED it on to the next generation. It is a DEFECT, an IMPROPER forming of the human body. That scrub is NOT a morph, it is PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED, it is DEFORMED.

Albinos, pieds, patternless, and ALL the other COLOR MORPHS are just that, MORPHS. Some do quite well in the wild, ie the patternless, the anerythistic and many other COLOR morphs.

Has ANYONE CAUGHT a ONE EYED or NO EYED snake in the wild? I have not heard nor have I ever seen one wild caught.

Your reputation is trashed and the childlike attitude WILL be remembered FAR longer than you think.