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Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

Selling deformed animals... Opinions?

  • Wow! Eyeless animals are cool, I can't wait to be the first on my block to own a scrub that can't se

    Votes: 8 3.7%
  • There is nothing wrong with selling a deformed animal and using it as a breeder, although it shouldn

    Votes: 9 4.2%
  • There IS something wrong with selling a deformed animal or using it as a breeder, it should be given

    Votes: 143 66.2%
  • Why wasn't this thing culled the minute it hatched? It's dangerous and has no monetary value except

    Votes: 56 25.9%

  • Total voters
    216
Plain and simple........ I don't buy it!

Darrin, Wes, Seamus, anyone else who's arguing the kill it, isolate it, scurge of the universe point, (is that general enough Darrin?) Unless you are independently wealthy or just plain bill free, money is ALWAYS a motivator (maybe not the greatest, and certainly not the only, but always there). And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Many great things have come from people's strive towards wealth, or heck even just a paycheck sometimes. So what if he sells it. Any trait that is bred into a gene pool can be bred back out if it needs to be. Again, I seriously doubt eyelessness is a genetic trait. Yes, I know it has been linked to the albino gene in boas, but this is not a boa.

Occasional eyelessness (one eye missing being more common than both) does show up in pythons, I've seen it once in my own breedings. But I know of no study which shows it to be genetic rather than an incubation mistake.

And Darrin you MIGHT, I emphasize might, freeze a two-headed corn, but I doubt you'd do so if you knew it was 100% healthy (other than that whole secong head thing) and you could sell it for literally thousands of dollars.

Someone used a car w/o headlights as example, saying no one would buy it because one could not drive it at night. BS!!! Auto museums are FULL of cars that are not road worthy, and people pay money every single day to see those cars. Nascar's don't have headlights and that's a multibillion dollar sport, so that doesn't wash. No one is saying an eyeless snake would be sucessful in the wild (although there are examples of many creatures, including snakes, which do quite well w/o eyes). But remember, we're not talking about "in nature" here.

Let's take another example, one which some of you might not find so horrible. Let's say someone produces a python with hind legs. Hey, the hip bones are still there, so maybe a few genes get screwed up, a little deletion here, a little inversion there, and whamo! We now have a python with legs. Who in their right mind would be fool enough to freeze that animal? Especially if it ate and grew and was doing just fine. Heck, I'd pay $20 to see that, and I'm about the cheapest SOB on the planet!

Yes, eyelessness and/or blindness are generally considered BAD things. But, eyelessness hasn't stopped this snake from succeeding has it? Maybe that fact, in and of itself, is what makes this scrub python worth more than your everyday garden variety one. Ray Carles and Stevie Wonder were/are certainly more amazing because they can't see aren't they?
 
How many Nascar races are run at night?

There goes that one.

My analogy with the headlightless car was to give an example of how the LACK of certain attributes could be detrimental. We've all turned off the lights on a lonely road at night just to see how dark it was. We've all turned them back ON because it is safer to drive with them than it is to drive without them. They are needed.

Many people like freak shows. They are still around today. I am not saying this snake should be put down, but I am saying that to breed it and let those offspring into the gene pool without knowledge of the gene they MIGHT be carrying is not good.

The impression I got from these guys is that they were just in it for a buck, then for scientific research, then they were just joking. Now they have ZERO credibility. Not being able to trust thier word makes me leery.

Personally I have no great like for scrub pythons. Personally I tend to think this was an incubation aberrancy. Personally I think that any talk about studying this snake is a bunch of hogwash.

I see NO problem with profit. I am HEARTILY for it. So long as it's honestly represented. I SERIOUSLY doubt that would be the case from what I have seen of these two here.

Should the snake be killed? I don't think so. Should it be bred to see if this is the next step in the evolution of scrubs? I don't think so. If that step IS being taken by Old Lady Nature, we WILL see more of these no eyed wonders in the next few years. If THAT happens, if more with no eyes are produced with PROOF that there was no temp. manipulation or other help whatever its form may take, then great, breed the heck out of him.

Who's giving the odds here that that is what will occur? I've got 500.00 says it WON'T and I'll give you 5 to one odds. Hmmmm guess I'm giving the odds here. Any takers?

As far as Ray and Stevie, wasn't blindness in both cases brought on by them being placed in incubators with the oxygen levels set too high? I don't believe either of them were born blind, were they? I could be wrong on that point, I'm not so good at people. However, had they had to live in the wild neither would have lived through childhood, as this snake would most likely have failed at as well.

Scrubs are not burrowing or nocturnal that I know of. They NEED eyes to find food, hide from enemies and seek out shelter.
 
Actually quite a few Nascar races are run at night. I went to one about 4 months ago. They just turn on the track lights, and away they go! Much the same way as an eyeless snake would have his handicap catered to by placing prey items in front of his face where he could easily find them.

I would venture a guess that a 12 foot, tame, patternless, and then top it off as w/ eyeless, scrub python might very well be one of the most valuable scrub pythons on the market today. Hell, the tame part is almost as hard to come by as the eyeless part! LOL
 
"Any trait that is bred into a gene pool can be bred back out if it needs to be."

I'm not at all certain that this is the case, but even if it were possible, it would surely have to be done on a trait that had had LIMITED introduction to the genetic composite of a species. Once it had fully invaded the gene pool, I don't believe there is ANY way to remove a gene through selective breeding, without culling animals.

Are you suggesting culling thousands of animals that may or may not be carrying this gene, if this turns out to be a bad idea (like it could be any other kind of an idea!)? Is that supposed to be better than being proactive and culling ONE animal that IS deformed in the here and now???

C'mon ... who's fooling who here?

And Brian, I may be wrong about LOTS of things, I may be less than articulate at times, and I may even be seen as being less than completely compassionate on some of these issue ... but I do NOT lie! If I tell you that I would freeze an animal before I would allow it to pass on a genetic defect to an entire species, you can believe that is EXACTLY what I would do. I don't care how much money we're talking about either. My own personal integrity is priceless to me, even if no one else values it very much at all.
 
Darin Chappell said:
And Brian, I may be wrong about LOTS of things, I may be less than articulate at times, and I may even be seen as being less than completely compassionate on some of these issue ... but I do NOT lie! If I tell you that I would freeze an animal before I would allow it to pass on a genetic defect to an entire species, you can believe that is EXACTLY what I would do. I don't care how much money we're talking about either. My own personal integrity is priceless to me, even if no one else values it very much at all.

He's got YOU there, brian.
 
Simple fact is this should be a rescue not sold. So someone didn't have the heart to do the right thing and freeze it when it hatched, but they should have enough of an idea to make a decision not to breed this animal nor even offer it for sale. It should be a rescue pure and simple and given to someone who would not ever breed it. If money is a big worry have the person you give it to pay shipping. But it isn't ethical to sell a deformed animal for breeding.
 
Darrin, good for you. But, I'm telling you right now, if two headed corns were proven genetic tomorrow, they would be the hottest thing to hit the market since albino balls. And I think most people would ride that gravy-train for all it's worth.

Also, did he say the snake was being sold for breeding purposes, or was it just for sale? What he sells his snake for (purpose wise) is between him and the buyer. Thousands apon thousands of snakes are sold every year as feeders. Many people have a problem w/ that and would refuse to sell their animals if they knew what they were being sold for. But most of the time animals are just "for sale," and what happens to them after said sale is up to the buyer.

Bottom line is: I feel he can sell his animal for whatever price and purpose he wants. If yall are correct and the entire world can plainly see this animal belongs in a freezer or behind five locks so that it might never accidently breed and immediately pollute the entire scrub python gene pool, thereby causing the entire reptile industry to come to a screeching halt, then so be it, it will not sell. Plain and simple. What bugs me is when 3 or 4 of you get together and DECLARE that someone is an absolute scumbag just because you don't like something they are selling or their particular marketing technique. "Your reputation is RUINED!!!!!" No it's not. Now true, the four of you that think that, might not buy from that person, but it's not like every person who might ever buy a reptile lives on thin site 24/7 like some of you do. I would venture a guess that about 99% of the retail reptiles sold in this county are sold to people who don't check this site first. Besides, if it's really that bad, don't you think most people can see it?

This animal is handicapped, NOT unhealthy. There are two very different conditions.
 
Whooops! That should read "THEY are two very different conditions."
 
I think this has wound up being somewhat less about the snake and its eventual disposition and more about the lies and stories told by these two guys.

And that is the shame about it being here in hell instead of on the boi.

The snake is his to do with as he wants.

His reputation has suffered by the way he changed his story.

Character counts. So does lack of it.
 
All dogs have many complications due to the amount of inbreeding they subdue. Hip dysphasia has been joined by an ever-lengthening list of genetic disorders of most purebred dog breeds. -Not just Retrievers. For any effect you would pretty much have to kill off whole breeds of many breeds. I would be wary of any purebred dog I bought.. Point being, the dog will feel pain with H.D. Just being eyeless, the snake will not. Therefor, there is a difference.


Any trait that is bred into a gene pool can be bred back out if it needs to be. Again, I seriously doubt eyelessness is a genetic trait. Yes, I know it has been linked to the albino gene in boas, but this is not a boa.

Since I am on the dog analogy; Good luck at fixing the genepool..
You do realize Boas and pythons aren't truely all that different, right, and pretty much, only one thing truely seperates them?


"THEY are two very different conditions."

Indeed.
 
ENOUGH!
Seamus, Tegu, and everyone else: We have come to an uneasy and delicate truce; several of us have said we will be good: If the party who is selling the scrub is not good, perhaps this could be moved back to the BOI and on the promise of everyone else's good behavior, he can use all the rope he wants to hang himself.
**Please**
Moderators: please, will you consider our respectful request to move this post back, if we all behave ourselves on this thread?

OK. Let's see what happens....
 
Any chance of seeing a picture of this "eyeless" scrub? Not being morbid here, just curious. Besides after all these pages and pages I'm starting to wonder if there is an "eyeless scrub". Not calling anyone a liar here. It just seems there's been a few people that have stated they've seen it and it looks great. There's just not been a picture posted to show the rest of us. Unless I missed it. If that's the case could someone please direct me to where it is. :)
 
It will be at the Texas Reptile Expo here in San Antonio tomorrow. I will get a pic of it there, and if it is okay for me to post it, I will. I have to ask the owner of the animal. If they don't want it posted, it will not be posted. If anyone posts a pic before me, I will post mine as well if it is okay with the owner.

Jason Trott
 
Brian,

You wrote, "What bugs me is when 3 or 4 of you get together and DECLARE that someone is an absolute scumbag just because you don't like something they are selling or their particular marketing technique."

Speaking only for myself, I have NEVER done what you have described above. I have MY opinions for myself, and I have locked horns with Seamus, Wes, and a few others here, who happen to agree with me this time.

What bugs me is your broad sweeping generalizations about me and others. Please cite specific wrongs I have committed, or be kind enough to leave me out of your broadstroke paintings, will you?

Thanks in advance...
 
Darrin, my posts are not meant as a "personal" attack towards you or any other particular person. As I stated, what bugs me is people "ganging up" on someone, over what amounts to personal "tastes." This animal is not unhealthy, therefore, there is no reason he should not be able to market it and sell it as he sees fit.

There's another post about some leopard geckos which were being sold on Reptibid which I have no problem w/. Those geckos were obviously unhealthy, therefore they should not be sold, or at least they should not be sold w/o a big warning attached to them.

This man originally posted the animal "for sale." After he got questioned by Seamus, he said he had gotten offers for offspring showing the trait. At which point, the BOI Brethren attacked w/ both barrels. All he wanted to do was see if he could get offers for the snake! People approached him asking for offspring. When that happened, he probably thought, "Well damn, maybe I should breed this thing. People seem pretty interested in it." I'm sorry, but I don't see anything wrong w/ responding to market demand.

As I sit here typing this right now, there is an ad for ALEX HUE (someone whom the BOI holds in high reguard) on the right side of the page, PROUDLY displaying, for all the BOI to see, a deformed mutant of a corn snake. Not only does it display a color pattern which would kill it in about 2.7 secs in wild, it also has two freaking heads!!!!!!! No one is attacking Alex for displaying that hideous beast. I would say this scrub is less abnormal than a two headed snow corn. Yet, yall are ready to march on the freaking castle, freezing everything the guy owns along the way. It just seems heavy-handed to me.

Sorry, if my comments were to personal, they were not intended to really single you out. That's why I put the et. al.
 
Brian,

I'm afraid you've missed my point entirely. I'm not upset that you singled me out in the "BOI brethren" comments. I'm upset that you mentioned me at all.

You have made your perceptions about BOI behaviors known, and true or not, you are entitled to your opinions. However, you are not entitled to just lump my name in with behaviors that I have NOT taken on the BOI. I do not get marching orders from Seamus or anyone else. I have my own opinions, and if they should happen to agree with others from time to time, it is only because we share values, and not talking points.

So you see, what I am asking you is this: Unless you can cite specific examples of my doing otherwise, I am asking you not to include me in your BOI brethren diatribes any longer. Thanks for your attention to this request.
 
Description of the scrub python

Description of the scrub python
I have recently been made aware of the controversy surrounding the scrub python I, yes I, sold to Glen. I have taken the time to read every post. I would like to tell everyone what I know about the snake.
I was hesitant about receiving this snake. Scrub pythons have an aggressive reputation. They are powerful snakes that could easily crush a boa, or berm of like size.
I did take on the acquisition of the scrub python.
I was amazed at the beauty of this animal. The snake was a dark yellow with dark tipping on the scales. It was about 16 inches in circumference and 12 feet long and very solid. I was surprised by the strength when the snake wrapped my arm for support. The snake had no pattern, and no eyes or even a hint that eyes belonged on this snake. The head was completely covered with scales.
The snake was very calm and confident. There were several individuals present when we opened the snake bag. This didn't intimidate the snake at all.
This was the first scrub I had seen in person. I wasnt sure of the nature of an eyeless snake. more or less aggressive, more or less active.
This was a calm solid animal. I enjoyed handling the snake and felt no pity for it's eyeless state.
I added this because little description of the snake has been offered.
I will offer the snake for public viewing at my table at the upcoming reptile expo in San Antonio Saturday and Sunday.
Anybody interested in seeing this snake and judging it's viability as a lifeform is welcome to visit.
 
a closed mind cannot be expanded

I have read everyone of the posts on this subject. I think many of you should be ashamed of yourselves. This topic has brought out all that is bad in human nature and little of what is good. A bright spot light has been shined on some very closed minded people in this forum. I hope this forum serves to afford them, and they know who they are, the opportunity to learn.
When the immediate cry is to destroy all that is different then we lose all possibility of learning from the situation. From the progression of the posts it seems that there is little interest in education.
What can be learned from this worthless freak of nature, as it has been described.
I have seen no studies on the sensory acuity of eyeless snakes compared the snakes with full vision. We know the remaining senses of blind humans are far more acute.
We don't know if this is genetic or environmental. Either way it is important to know. As breeders we would want to know the minimum and maximum thresholds of incubation temperatures. This way we could prevent the creation eyeless snakes or to produce eyeless snakes if the market decides this is a valuable asset.
If this proves to be genetic it would be important to know if it is linked to the patternless gene. This would be of great importance to Clifford in his breeding endevors.
If this is genetic are there any other anomalies that accompany this eyeless gene that couls prove positive. EG. Resistance to IBD or other python maladies.
This kill first ask questions later mentality worries me.
 
kill first ask questions later

This kill first ask questions later mentality worries me.
All of the genetic cases discussed in earlier posts using dogs as examples are known because of research and continued breeding through many generations. These discoveries were not made because at the first sign of trouble the dog was gassed.
This scrub python, and yes, it's offspring are of great scientific value. As breeders of quality animals this should be immediatly apparent. There is much to learn here.
Darrin admitted that it would take several generations to know if this was a genetic abnormality that could be hereditary. He still believed the snake should have been frozen. What do we learn from this. We learn the length of time it takes for a given animal of a given weight to achieve a given temperature in a freezer. This may be important, but we can do better.
Rattles on rattlesnakes were an abnormality once. Vertical eyeslits or round eyes, I bet heat pits were an abnormality once, the first live birth of a snake.
I read a volley where the ability of this snake to hide in the shade was questioned. If this snake has hightened senses due to the lack of eyes it could easily detect the cooler shade and water, if it was diurnal it would have great nocturnal advantages. If it was nocturnal hightened senses would give it a nocturnal advantage. Increased sensitivity to touch could shorten it's reaction time. It could develope a stronger defense, or a more powerful offense. It would be more sensitive to vibration, a fine tuned jacobsons. This snake could live in caves, eat bats. This snake could upset the whole balance of nature. My God freeze it now.
BPC and Wilmar were the voice of reason in this forum. Even they found it difficult to keep from being sucked down by the lack of logic and breakdown of mutual respect displayed by those purposed to be ethical participants in the herpetological hobby.
The reptile hobby is driven by abnormalities. Animals that could not and would not ever exist in the wild are the mainstay of the hobby. Sunglow Boas, Paradox Albino, Snow, Ghost, Patternlesstangerinejunglealbinodoublehetforghost X Gianthetforbigeyespiderblackback.
and everybody wants to make a buck. Lets be civil.

Matt
 
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