Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Wilomn]

I was using that sense as an example.

Let me make it better, just for you, okay. Would that make you feel better???

If a person is blind, they can usually hear better. What makes you think that if a snake is blind, or in this case eyeless, it cannot sense heat better, or feel vibrations better, or sense smells better, or any other sense be heightened? If anyone has proof that this is not the case, please show me. I would be highly interested.

Is that better for you?????

Jason Trott

Are you also aware that there are physiological differences between reptiles, that's what snakes are, and mammals, that's what people are?

To compare the two in such manner, the similarities of the nervous systems of to completely DIFFERENT types of animals is somewhat farfetched if you're looking for accurate information.

Are you one of the "scientists" that would be assisting in this "study" that this snake is to be submitted to?

Alan, it came out last night that this snake has a female sibling, or sister jason, that is ALSO eyeless. This was confirmed and some allusions were made to others in the clutch also being eyeless. My guess is now leaning heavily towards a genetic defect causing this DEFORMITY and not incubation fluctuation.

Whether or not this snake is ever bred is moot at this point.

The only thing that we can count on is that glenn will lie to us about this snake and will therefore most likely lie about the offspring it produces.

If a big female can lay, let's say 30 eggs, and 25% of them turn out to be eyeless and 25% of them are carriers of the gene and 50% of them are normal just how do you think he will label the normal looking babies? Possible hets? Or, as I think more likely, just normals without mentioning the fact that one or both parents are eyeless. Afterall, just how many people would want eyeless, much less het for eyeless scrubs? Heck, how many people want scrubs at all? And I'm not putting down scrubs, they are pretty. Pretty to look at and pretty mean too. They do not have that large a following that I know of. Am I wrong in this? Do they have a huge but secret following?

The snake is less the issue than is the trustworthiness of the owner and his friend. If they would lie about this snake what else might they lie about. Makes you wonder doesn't it? That's the main issue for me. Who can be trusted and who can't. In this case I vote for CAN'T.

 

[Lucille]

Wes, whether or not the snake is bred is not at all a moot point in my book; although it is true that there is not much we can do to stop it, I certainly would do my best to warn anyone from buying a baby scrub from this guy. (Or anything else). As to not trusting him, you got that right. In fact, with only a friend of his saying the snake was at the show, but no one else confirming and no pics despite repeated requests, I wonder:
1) whether this guy still has the snake and
2) whether this is some giant hoax
The only thing that lends a modicum of believability to this whole shenanigan is that Seamus picked up on the ad (good eye!), otherwise at this point, with no pix and no confirmation, I wonder if it is just some sad practical joke....

 

[gamerjjt]

Are you also aware that there are physiological differences between reptiles, that's what snakes are, and mammals, that's what people are?

There is no need to talk to me like a 5 year old. You don't have to be an @$$. I know that I am a mammal and snakes are reptiles, but cats are cats and dogs are dogs. Who freakin' cares. It is still senses, whether it be in dogs, cats, snakes, humans, slugs, snails.....etc. Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, smelling is smelling, feeling is feeling, and touching is touching. Who cares what species. It is still senses. Is there really that much of a difference. When someone stomps by you, you feel the ground vibrate. When somone stomps by a snake/dog/cat/snail/slug/bird, they feel the ground vibrate. What you are saying is that when someone stomps by a snake, they cannot feel the ground move? That is what I am getting from your statement above. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it sounds like.

Are you one of the "scientists" that would be assisting in this "study" that this snake is to be submitted to?

When did I ever say that I was interested in doing this. Don't put words, into my mouth. I don't care who you are, you are not special, and you will not twist what I said and make it suit you. Let me repost it for you:

If a person is blind, they can usually hear better. What makes you think that if a snake is blind, or in this case eyeless, it cannot sense heat better, or feel vibrations better, or sense smells better, or any other sense be heightened? If anyone has proof that this is not the case, please show me. I would be highly interested.

I don't believe that I said anywhere in there, that I was:
1. a scientist
2. interested in doing any type of study on this animal.

Before you go spouting, you may want to get what was actually said, and what you read, and then figure out what actually happened.

Jason Trott

 

[KodiakWood]

Lucille you have a valid point but on the other hand the fact remains the same anything is possible ...Id love to find a boa or python that would sit down on a sunday morning and nosh on lox and bagels but in all reality is down right crazy and no I dont have scientific basis that they do exsist ....but then again neither do you .or do you. but back to the question my son asked 3 females give birth each to 1 no eye baby would you destroy all the babies to save the gene pool?Im no science wiz. Im just a simple man who reads alot and thinks that things change on a daily basis....so anything is possible

 

[gamerjjt]

Lucille you have a valid point but on the other hand the fact remains the same anything is possible ...Id love to find a boa or python that would sit down on a sunday morning and nosh on lox and bagels but in all reality is down right crazy and no I dont have scientific basis that they do exsist ....but then again neither do you .or do you. but back to the question my son asked 3 females give birth each to 1 no eye baby would you destroy all the babies to save the gene pool?Im no science wiz. Im just a simple man who reads alot and thinks that things change on a daily basis....so anything is possible

Thank you. That is an excellent point. If a child is born blind, why don't we prevent the parent from ever producing another offspring, and have the one that is blind, or have another physical/mental disorder/diformaty(sp?) "culled". That is an excellent point Kodiak.

If we cull one species, why not them all, but then who is to say that a mammal, reptile, or any other animal is perfect and does not deserve to be culled? Then when a more superior animal is produced, should the rest of the population be culled because a more superior animal has been produced?

Jason Trott

 

[Lucille]

Bill, sugar, you are asking the wrong person; I am an insignificant small time hobbyist and have never bred a reptile; I fear that if I answer this question, you would progress to the next obvious question and ask exactly where I would draw the line of which snakes to destroy and which to let live in future possible handicaps; but Bill, blindness is not a handicap I would like to foster and spread around.
But, since your question is perhaps meant for all, as an experience in thought and integrity: My answer would be yes, I cannot watch the lives of 60 snakelets as they are being raised to make sure those who have them will not breed them; I would indeed put them down.
I have very little in the way of financial wealth, but it would never cross my mind to compromise my honesty and integrity to save money, I would never ever sell an animal like that and of course would never breed one.

 

[Lucille]

Jason, your response it an attempt to inflame, not use reason.
Snakes and children are different. Surely you see that.
BTW the science of genetic counselling is becoming quite advanced, so if a child has a 100% chance of being born with a deformity because of his parents' genetic makeup, they are counselled and can decide to adopt if they wish. As a nurse I have talked to parents that have adopted children for that very reason.
But the fact remains Jason, that comparing snakes to kids is just not and equivalent and more, it is imho an attempt to provoke.

 

[Steph Scranton]

I was not going to get involved in this thread but......

Bill, to answer your question. In reptiles. sometimes eye deformaties are caused by incubation flucs. Last year we had a leopard gecko born with one reduced eye and one normal eye, and two chondro babies born, one with a reduced eye and one born with one eye. They were both incubated at the same time, in the same incubator. We had some wierd things going on in the incubator at the time, so everything was attributed to to that. The chondros didn't live long and the Leopard gecko was given as a pet to a little boy who loves to nuture things.

If, however, you had three female boas give birth at the same time all with a no-eyed baby in each litter. You would have to look at things a tad differently. IF all the females were unrelated AND had been bred to three different males, then I would say that the possibility that the condition was genetic would be very slim. Most likely in that case, there was some major flucuations going on in the temps of your snake room during the time that your females were gravid. Now, on the other had, if the three females were all siblings or if the same male had been used for all three, then that increases the possibility of it being a genetic thing. In that case, I would find them homes as pets, with strict instructions on the fact that they should not be bred. I have a problem putting down otherwise healthy animals but the responsibility to not pollute the gene pool rates HIGH on my list.


The animal in question here, should just be kept as a pet. Especially since their seems to be at least one other sibling who has no eyes.

 

[KodiakWood]

"Sugar" thats so nice to here I forgot Texas gals call everyone that made me home sick for a sec aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh but now to serious I also am a small time person who has dreams of making in this bussiness{sp} I personally Wouldnt sell them But I couldnt kill them either the point that I was trying to make was This is really a middle of the road subject and by my post I in no way tried to ruffle nobody feathers Its just that new things happen everyday and I cant close my mind to that fact I hope y'all understand that

 

[KodiakWood]

Hi Steph,I am pondering what you just wrote and yes there are alot of variables to this ......But....The What If .....still remains one also but Ill be the first to admit when it comes to Pythons theres alot I need to learn But then again Boas are my thing so maybe those who Know pythons Know what caused this anomaly So no harm no foul

 

[gamerjjt]

Jason, your response it an attempt to inflame, not use reason.
Snakes and children are different. Surely you see that.
BTW the science of genetic counselling is becoming quite advanced, so if a child has a 100% chance of being born with a deformity because of his parents' genetic makeup, they are counselled and can decide to adopt if they wish. As a nurse I have talked to parents that have adopted children for that very reason.
But the fact remains Jason, that comparing snakes to kids is just not and equivalent and more, it is imho an attempt to provoke.

I can see what you are saying Lucille, but at the same time, you, and others, are talking about the superiority of an animal with eyes, over this animal that has none. So in a sense you are talking about animals that have eyes are superior to an animal that has none. This animal has no eyes, and is far from inferior to an animal that has eyes. From what I saw yesterday, he/she, is getting by/surviving fine with no eyes at all, and is not suffering in the slightest. On that point, one might say that I, who has sight, is superior to say, Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder, who never had sight, or in Ray Charles' case lost his sight at the age of seven. An animal is an animal, should Ray Charles have been "culled" at the age of 7 when he lost his sight, for fear that he would be inferior to say......me, or you, or Bill, or Wes, or anyone else for that matter.

I am not trying to provoke, I am just trying to point out my opinion. Maybe I took what you origionally wrote out of context, but I don't think so, and that is my opinion, which I am entitled to, even though some would not like to hear it sometimes(not finger pointing at you Lucille).

Jason Trott

 

[KodiakWood]

Good Thing they didnt Cull Ray we'd be with out some kick to the @$$ tunes

 

[gamerjjt]

Good Thing they didnt Cull Ray we'd be with out some kick to the @$$ tunes

That is my point, imagine what we would have missed out on if what everyone is say, "cull out the eyeless animal" would have happened to Ray Charles when he was 7. He still lived a full and very long life, and was an extremely(sp?) acomplished musician. Even though he had no use of his eyes, for what, 70-75 years? I have no idea how old he is/was. Sorry if my years is off.

Jason Trott

 

[Lucille]

Jason, sweetie, once again, kids and snakes are not equivalent; I would never enter a discussion about culling children: I have a son handicapped by insulin dependent diabetes.
When you are speaking of someone who is raising and selling animals, the focus is on future profit. When you raise kids, you do not think about selling them (well, maybe occasionally, when they are teenagers lol) and you certainly don't make a profit off of them.
So I think it would be appropriate to drop the comparisons with human beings. It is a more intellectually challenging argument if you stay within the realm of the animal world; but you are a thoughtful person, Jason, and quite capable of thinking through those arguments.

 

[gamerjjt]

I understand what you are saying Lucille, babe, but when you think about it, the animal world, as well as the "human" world is full of genetric diversity. Culling this animal would be like saying that it is not okay to have genetic diversity, given the snake has no eyes, but genetic diversity nonetheless. I say that is Glen is interested in breeding this animal, no one has the right to tell him not to. If you don't like the animal, don't look at it, and for sure don't buy it. It is easy as that. This world is full of CHOICES that is the beauty of it.

I will say it again, I have seen this animal in person, I stood about 5' from the beautiful animal, I did not want to get any closer. This animal is one of the most amazing looking animals that I think I have ever seen, well next to any Granite Burm, but that is another topic all together. If this animal would have been culled at birth, no one would be able to appreciate it's beauty. I will talk to Glenn and see if I can get some better pics. Yes, I do have some, but they are horrible, as my girlfriend was taking them, and she did not want to get extrememly close to it, and she does not have a Internet connection.

 

[Steph Scranton]

Jason, I am not getting into a flame war here, just making a few points.

Ray Charles was not born with no eyes, he was born fully sighted and lost his sight due to severe glacoma (if I remember correctly).

Comparing PEOPLE to ANIMALS is completely mute anyway. We have different rules that people live by (in most cultures) However, there was a time in human history when deformed children were left in the elements to DIE. Even just a few years ago (back in the 50 or 60") there were places here in the USA that sterilized mentally handicapped people. It also was not too long ago that when children were born with "problems" they were placed in institutions away from the general population.

I am not one of the ones that would have put the snake down at birth. I believe that if it eats on it's own then it can live. I am constantly given "misfits" because I will find them good homes, that will not breed them. They can live out their lives as pets.

If you look at other "animal hobbies" the breeders of purebred dogs and cats, will "cull" litters. The ones who are not up to par are sterilized and sold as pets. There are even some breeders who put down deficient animals.


Yes, some animals (albinos, pieds, etc. ) might not be able to survive in the wild. There are documented colonies of these animals living in the wild, though and not just ones who were "released". The fact remains that these animals survived AGAINST THE ODDS. Deviation from the norm in the wild is not beneficial (usually). Hence we get the saying "Survival of the fittest". So would a no eyed snake (that is not a cave animal or subterranean animal) survive in the wild? The odds are against it. It might be possible for it to live and mate but not very likely.



Bill,

Boas and pythons can both have incubational problems arise. If the female was not kept up to temp for some reason, or the temps flucuated oddly, it can affect boas, too. Since they also depend on the outside environment for their body heat. I was just stating that if there was some of the same blood running through the animals, it would increase the chance of the problem being genetic. It still might not be genetic but the chances have increased. The problem is that you never really know. Many species have been so inbred because of the lack of a large diverse captive population, or just because we are inbreeding them to produce morphs, that you have a hard time identifying what is genetic and what might just be incubational. There is still alot we don't know about these animals

 

[gamerjjt]

Jason, I am not getting into a flame war here, just making a few points.

Ray Charles was not born with no eyes, he was born fully sighted and lost his sight due to severe glacoma (if I remember correctly).

The point I was making with this, is that he was still blind. Yes, you are right, he DID have sight, but then he lost it, for whatever reason. From what I gather, everyone is saying that "animals" should be culled when this happens. When a snake is bit, or whatever happens, looses it's eyes, from what I gather, the general population who was posting previously would have froze the animal. Is this right? If it is, then the same should have happened to Ray whether human or animal(other than human).

If you look at other "animal hobbies" the breeders of purebred dogs and cats, will "cull" litters. The ones who are not up to par are sterilized and sold as pets. There are even some breeders who put down deficient animals.

I know exactly what you mean by this. I get messed up animals(rabbits) all the time that I use as feeders. I understand this, and could not agree with you more, but at the same time, does it make it right? Just because a dog is born with 3 legs, doesn't it still make it a dog? Can't it still reproduce and the offspring be 4 legged? Does a dog that has 3 legs carry the gene that makes him that way? If so, then the sire and the bitch, in the case of dogs, should be put down as well because they are the ones who passed the genes.

Jason

 

[Steph Scranton]

Jason,

Animals in captivity are at OUR MERCY. It is up to us NOT to pollute the gene pool further. I know of some people that if the dog was born with three legs, he would be put down upon birth. Does it make it right, not really but that is the point of BREEDERS. We strive to better the breed, NOT to degrade it. Would I put it down? no, would I allow it to be bred? NO!!!! Things work a tad differently in the herp world, right now. As it stands, it is not economical to sterilize less than perfect reptiles. (not like in dogs and cats) It is still expensive to sterlize dogs and cats but the fact remains it is easier and cheaper to do so. Dog breeders, can sterilize an "imperfect" dog and sell it off as a pet. In the reptile world, we have to TRUST the person who is taking the animal. Since trust can be hard to find, many breeders choose to put the animals down.

I see that you failed to comment on the fact that we humans also used to (and in some cases still do) "cull' ourselves. Go grab an anthropology book and read about Tribal human societies.

 

[Wilomn]

There is no need to talk to me like a 5 year old. You don't have to be an @$$. I know that I am a mammal and snakes are reptiles, but cats are cats and dogs are dogs. Who freakin' cares. It is still senses, whether it be in dogs, cats, snakes, humans, slugs, snails.....etc. Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, smelling is smelling, feeling is feeling, and touching is touching. Who cares what species. It is still senses. Is there really that much of a difference. When someone stomps by you, you feel the ground vibrate. When somone stomps by a snake/dog/cat/snail/slug/bird, they feel the ground vibrate. What you are saying is that when someone stomps by a snake, they cannot feel the ground move? That is what I am getting from your statement above. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what it sounds like.



Jason Trott

jason, let me see if I've got this right. We're going to compare mammals and reptiles to arthropods and it makes no difference what species it is because they all feel, and by that I assume you mean detect sensory input, the same? Is this really your reasoning?
Then we're going to compare reptiles, mammals, arthropods and aves and determine on your say so that they all feel, again I assume you meant detect sensory input and by that I mean from what ever sensors they have. Whether it be by eye, common to all of your examples by the way, smell, touch, or taste.

While I do agree that they may all fell the same things, as in the gound moving if I stopmed my foot, but I am not willing to go along with your theory that they all "feel" the same things the same way. My guess is snails are less enthusiastic about "hearing" me stomp my foot than than dog would. Or a cat for that matter. Or a bird. Or hey, how about fish? No, better not go there in this thread, no need to talk about hooks and all that fishing paraphenalia.

I just don't think you're on the right track. I think you don't have enough facts yet to make such speculation as you have. All animals DO NOT "feel" the same. It DOES make a difference.

Even a horrible picture would be good at this point. Most cameras today can take a heck of a picture from even 5 feet away and I'd sure like to see this animal. See if you can't get one posted please.

 

[Rachel H.]

Alright, I planned on just reading the posts and seeing where this all goes. But . . . I have a couple things to say.
First off. . . Army. Matt got the Stiletto in, I didn't know what it was, neither did he. Heck, nobody knew what snake it was. I don't even remember where it came from. But I DID NOT touch it, but once. And that was to open the container and put it in a proper enclosure. As soon as I realized that I had never seen something resembling that animal before, and neither had anyone else, I steered clear, and so did Matt, so did everyone else. It was not handled. Do not question Matt's ethics or his capability of keeping his employees safe.
Second off, IF Glenn bred and decided to distribute the babies for profit, which I still hope he won't be doing, he wouldn't do so without properly informing the buyer of the condition of one of the parenting animals. I highly doubt, in fact, I KNOW that he would not leave that detail out. He is not stupid, he is not irresponsible, and he is not in it for the money solely, no matter how his words may be twisted in here. Most of the things he has said, as far as breeding goes? Simply to irritate those of you who have jumped and harrassed him throughout this thread. And third, the animals heightened senses. I would bet every single animal I own on this. The way this animal holds and handles itself, shows for a fact that the other senses are heightened. It senses heat better than any animal I've ever had the honor of working with(those of you who were there will not argue!) That animal jumps at anything that has heat. I've only been working with reptiles for five years, I'm still a beginner, I know. But I have enough experience with snakes to know generally how snakes handle themselves, and how they carry themselves in certain circumstances. And this snake carries himself completely different than any other snake I've ever seen, or come in contact with. That's all I have to say. For the time being.