Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Wilomn]

Rachel, how many scrubs of this size have you worked with? How many pythons of this size have you worked with? How can you, with only 5 years experiance and not an expert by your own word, make a statement like YOU KNOW this snakes other senses besides that of sight are heightened? On what do you base this conclusion OTHER than your own admittedly inexpert observations?

He may or may not have better heat sensing capabilities. Just because he has not eyes DOES NOT automatically make those senses he DOES possess more acute. After all, you are comparing mammals to reptiles and we JUST DON'T KNOW if that is an accurate way to measure two such different types of animals.

After all, how long could YOU go without food or water? How long could YOU hang from a branch 50 feet off the ground?

Those are just two of the most obvious difference between snakes and people and there are plenty more. If you had to depend on your sense of smell to find food, how long would you live?

You REALLY can't compare the two.

All this though has already been covered and is not particularly relevant at the moment.

What is relevant is that you keep saying he said some things that weren't true becuase he got picked on here, in essence.

Well, what happens when he breeds this snake to its eyeless sister and then has someone get mad at him. Does he then sell the clutch as normals because someone was picking on him? He's shown a definate lack of upstanding character.

Where's the picture? How long does it take to take another picture of a snake you already have in your possession? If your girlfriend has pics post those.

Please.

 

[Palustris]

you ARE cognizant of the fact that snakes NO NOT hear to begin with right?

Heh, I'm starting to feel that I am picking on you..
Anyway, seems to me that most scientifical interests are going towards genetics and procreation these days while the rest of the fields stay with the old 'scientific data'.
Either way, just because a snake does not hear as well as a human, or other reptiles, doesn't make them deaf. Snakes have an inner ear canal that picks up sound through the skin which passes on to the jaw bone. Snakes don't only hear 'vibrations' from the ground but they can also hear airborne sounds due to the arrangements of the bones in the snake's jaw. So, technically snakes do hear even so it's not as well as other animals.

Well, what happens when he breeds this snake to its eyeless sister and then has someone get mad at him. Does he then sell the clutch as normals because someone was picking on him? He's shown a definate lack of upstanding character.

Don't pick on him and problems solved. By the way, are we assuming there is an eyeless sister or did someone mention there was one?
Zane Neher

 

[Lucille]

Zane,
The snake should not be bred in the first place.
But then to consign the fate of the litter: not only the snakes themselves but the reverberations of having a clutch like this in commerce, to whether a person feels 'picked on' is ludicrous on the face of it.
Zane: The snake ought not to be bred, it will be too difficult to keep track of where all the hatchlings go in the future.
The same solid arguments against breeding have been presented page after page, and the responders' arguments are getting weaker and more ridiculous, this last : well if ya don't pick on him everything will be ok' takes the cake.
Surely Glenn can find other breeding projects (although at this point it may not matter, his reputation is gone).

 

[gamerjjt]

Jason,


I see that you failed to comment on the fact that we humans also used to (and in some cases still do) "cull' ourselves. Go grab an anthropology book and read about Tribal human societies.

Steph, yes I did fail to comment on this, because I don't feel that I am qualified to comment on something I know absolutely NOTHING about, therefore have no comments I can make. Sorry, I wish I did know more. Sounds pretty interesting. Any books that I should read(I am not sounding sarcastic, just a question).

Which is what this whole thread comes down to. You, I, Rachel, Glenn, Lucille......and everyone else who has commented on this thread has no idea how this snake "feels", "hears", "smells".........so why are we commenting on this. I am stating my opinion, and you, and others, are basically saying that it is wrong. Who are you to say that my opinion is wrong. Are you studying reptiles on a full time basis, and can talk to them, kind of a "Dr. Dolittle" thing. Without someone sitting down and talking to an animal, which is not possible, we have no idea what it thinks or feels. This animal may be the "superman" of the reptile species, and we would never know it, if we decided to cull it off when it was hatched. Are you willing to sacrifice a "super" snake, just to be "ethical." Even that is up for grabs right now. Who is to say what is ethical, and what is not? Are you, and others on this thread GOD, and can make calls like that and tell small time breeders, myself included, that you should "kill that animal, keep that one, give that one away, and sell that one". I know the "super" snake thing is a stretch, but how do you know if it is true? I refer you back to my previous question, are you GOD?

Jason

 

[gamerjjt]

Even a horrible picture would be good at this point. Most cameras today can take a heck of a picture from even 5 feet away and I'd sure like to see this animal. See if you can't get one posted please.

Originally posted by wilomn
Where's the picture? How long does it take to take another picture of a snake you already have in your possession? If your girlfriend has pics post those.

I am not sure if you took the time to read my previous post, but let me repost it for you, because you are special, just so you can reread it. Here you go, I have highlighted the important words just for you, since it seems you like to skip reading posts.

I will say it again, I have seen this animal in person, I stood about 5' from the beautiful animal, I did not want to get any closer. This animal is one of the most amazing looking animals that I think I have ever seen, well next to any Granite Burm, but that is another topic all together. If this animal would have been culled at birth, no one would be able to appreciate it's beauty. I will talk to Glenn and see if I can get some better pics. Yes, I do have some, but they are horrible, as my girlfriend was taking them, and she did not want to get extrememly close to it, and she does not have a Internet connection.

Let me know if you have problems reading this one, since you seem to have skipped it, or ignored it for some reason, and I will repost it, just for you.

Jason

 

[Palustris]

lucille,
I totally agree. I'm as much for limiting it's breeding ability as the next person-just a little more calm about it. I was just joshing when I said don't pick on him, felt there was a little room for a joke or two.
Zane Neher

 

[Lucille]

oops

 

[Seamus Haley]

Either way, just because a snake does not hear as well as a human, or other reptiles, doesn't make them deaf. Snakes have an inner ear canal that picks up sound through the skin which passes on to the jaw bone. Snakes don't only hear 'vibrations' from the ground but they can also hear airborne sounds due to the arrangements of the bones in the snake's jaw. So, technically snakes do hear even so it's not as well as other animals.

But Zane... You know as well as I do that it isn't "hooked up" and that there aren't any nerves connecting the inner timpanum to the brain. Snakes are 100% totally stone deaf and the only one who says different is Kaplan.

Who is to say what is ethical, and what is not?

... That is why there's a thread here skippy. See, I read the ad and said "Hey, that's not ethical!" and then asked for the opinions of others who are, for the most part, in agreement with many of the major points.

Are you, and others on this thread GOD, and can make calls like that and tell small time breeders, myself included, that you should "kill that animal, keep that one, give that one away, and sell that one". I know the "super" snake thing is a stretch, but how do you know if it is true? I refer you back to my previous question, are you GOD?

Jason, this is the second time someone is going to ask you to stop the sensationalistic garbage. Either have a legitimate discussion about the ethics shown by Glenn and some of the underlying issues or please, just don't participate. Garbage-posts like the one quoted above or your earlier ones comparing snakes to humans don't clarify the issue one way or the other, they merely lead to tangents. So cut it out, eh?

The major objection is really with the manner in which Glenn chose to market this animal. He hyped up the eyeless trait as being rare, beautiful and DESIREABLE in an attempt to generate interest and possibly raise the profits which might be generated by this animal. I have no qualms with people marketing animals to the best of their ability provided they are honest and ethical in their approach- lying to jack up a price is a terrible thing and so is promoting a negative trait as a positive one. The ethics are something any given individual has to decide for themselves, there are some people who apparantly think there's nothing wrong with what was done and that's okay, feel free to do business with Glenn. There are others who see his actions as inherently negative and certainly would prevent any money or animals going in his direction and there's a kind of intangible desire for potential buyers to know what a seller has been up to in the past. Plus if eyeless scrubs start showing up more frequently, now everyone will know who to blame, much the same way we know to blame Flukers for yellow fungus in bearded dragons and Rainwater for skin diseases in corn snakes.

And in that there were a few obviously false logins on this thread (i.e., Ford Prefect which is either a car or a character from Hitchhikers Guide but certainly not someone's actual name) I suspect the recent additions to the first option of the Poll are invalid and coming from a single individual. If any of the moderators happen to have time to kill and feel like wasting it tracking down IP addresses, would it be possible to see if the blatant false logins match anyone else who has participated on this thread? I suspect it would also be extremely telling about the character of the one choosing to behave in such a manner. If none have time, no big deal really since their minor interruptions didn't detract much from the content of the thread. Er... didn't detract any more than had already been detracted anyway.

 

[Rachel H.]

Once again . . . what makes you think he's actually going to breed the animal? As far as I know, he hasn't even suggested it. And I'm not talking about on this forum. We stood at the shop and spoke of this snake for three solid hours. And never once did he say "Hey, I wanna breed it and make babies" He said something to the extent of wanting, not only, to speak with the previous owner and learn what he's lgotten out of the experience of owning this animal for as long as he had. And he would like to speak to the original breeders to find out what they think went "wrong". He never once, and I doubt ever will, want to breed this animal to the female eyeless Scrub Python. What you guys are doing is taking his words and twisting them around, making him sound like he WILL breed this animal and he WILL breed it to the female patternless eyeless Scrub, who ALSO is his sister. Go figure. You have taken this from a simple question of curiousity to an outright attrocity on his part in a matter of days, if it even took that long.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Oh and as to the freehandling of the stilleto thing...

Rach and I had a nice long talk about it via another means late last night and came to a sort of mutually satisfactory conclusion. I remember something about an old discussion she doesn't and vise versa, but it happened over a year ago and the reality may be entirely lost.

The thread is about Glenn, not Matt and my comments were overzealous at best, inappropriate and inaccurate at worst and I'd hereby like to retract them (at least until Rachel and I can find a third party who was there for the original conversation) and apologize for bringing it up. Had nothing to do with the issue of Glenn's proposed sale of this animal and the input of people who know him personally has a great deal of value. If the impression he has given Fauna and it's members is not accurate, he really should speak up and explain himself... unless he wants to be remembered as a bad-trait breeding, price jacking liar. His choice I suppose.

However since Matt is here (and Rachel if she was there for the sale) how was this animal sold to Glenn? My understanding was that it was fifty dollars for an animal which was outwardly healthy upon cursory inspection but displaying an obvious deformity- a far cry from "Amazing beautiful one of a kind be the first to own this amazing new trait" which he was hyping it as on his ad.

 

[JJFOUTZ]

I see that you failed to comment on the fact that we humans also used to (and in some cases still do) "cull' ourselves. Go grab an anthropology book and read about Tribal human societies.

I have been waiting for pages for someone to touch this in a modern day sinerio but it just hasn't happened. What about abortion, would that fall under culling ourselves?
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way supportive of abortions but it is something that happens every day.

 

[gamerjjt]

Jason, this is the second time someone is going to ask you to stop the sensationalistic garbage. Either have a legitimate discussion about the ethics shown by Glenn and some of the underlying issues or please, just don't participate. Garbage-posts like the one quoted above or your earlier ones comparing snakes to humans don't clarify the issue one way or the other, they merely lead to tangents. So cut it out, eh?

I think that, yes, I did get a little off, but it still leads to one simple fact. One mans trash is another mans treasure. Who is to say that this animal is "trash". I think that if it is bred, which from what it sounds like it will not, this animal could produce perfectly normal offspring, and the eyeless trait is just an incubation flux/malfunction. Until the breeder of this animal steps forward and tell us what really happened, we will never know. I would not say that Glenn is "unethical" for simply stating in his original classified ad that he is taking offers. Which is exactly why this thread was started. If I am wrong about this Seamus, please let me know, since you are the one who started it. I am not trying to be a smart@$$, just trying to understand why this could not be handled in the form of an email to Glen instead of this publicly taken care of in a forum......or 42 pages of an email, and since it either looks like Glen was kicked off, or is chosing not to post anymore, it is easy to talk about how unethical someone is when they can't even defend themselves.

Jason

 

[JJFOUTZ]

since it either looks like Glen was kicked off, or is chosing not to post anymore, it is easy to talk about how unethical someone is when they can't even defend themselves.

Jason

Neither of Glenn's login names are showing as being suspended so I would think that he could defend himself.

 

[tool66]

Jason,

about taking the pictures, glen said he called you and left a message today rqsting a c/b with his work ph#. Talking about heightened senses, nobody has talked about what happened on saturday at the show. But I guess you would have to have been there to know what I'm talking about.

 

[tool66]

referring to glen's acct, he originally registered back in 02' and now he doesn't remember his password??? Don't know how he posted the snake on the acct last week. Do any of the "honorary members" know how he can gain access to his previous acct and reset the password? He last posts came from a friend's computer w/ a different ip address. Thanks.

 

[gamerjjt]

Jason,

about taking the pictures, glen said he called you and left a message today rqsting a c/b with his work ph#. Talking about heightened senses, nobody has talked about what happened on saturday at the show. But I guess you would have to have been there to know what I'm talking about.

Cory, Glen has not called me, and if he did, I did not get the message. If you talk to him, have him call me again, as I did not get the message. He has my cell phone number.

Jason

 

[Spitfire]

I had elected not to get involved in a thread that has taken so many turns but I feel I must point out a couple of things. I was offered two adult FEMALE Patternless eyeless SOUTHERN scrubs a few years ago by a gentleman who was not either of the men mentioned in this thread. He did state that if I did not sell him one of our patternless males, he was going to sell them. He offered them to us and I politely declined as we have a couple of females that have all of their faculties. But these were two females he offered. According to a post a few pages back, the ones in question are a pair. I dunno.
But they are surely not Australians as there are just a few in the USA (none breing bred) and they are quite distinct snakes.
And whatver the argument, Scrubs are not the easiest snakes to breed and it is likely that these snakes may never reproduce. But there is always the chance. I personally would not be interested in any offspring strictly due to the fact that there is not just one eyeless specimen but two, showing it is likely that the anomaly is indeed inheritable. I like my scrubs with all of their parts. Their eyes are just one part of what makes them the spectacular creatures they are. Everyone has their own interests. Just like those that are breeding scaleless snakes, there will be those that breed eyeless snakes. But this general hobby/industry will be the final judge as to how "interesting" this trait is.

 

[Lucille]

Jeff, of all the red herring, 'let's hide the issue so no one will address Glenn's irresponsibility' issues you could have brought up, abortion heads the list. I will say this one more time, slowly, pay attention Jeff: ***people are not animals***'.
It is an old lawyer's trick to divert arguing so that the real issue is hidden. The real issue is the way Glenn got this animal and attempted to sell it, and its future possible impact were it to be bred. Anyone starting a debate about abortion here is falling for one of the oldest debating ploys in the books.

 

[JJFOUTZ]

Lucille,

I am not arguing for Glenn. I am not falling for some lawyer trick. I brought up the abortion thing because of all the people that posted here acting like it is so unthinkable to cull the animal. I understand that snakes are not humans as do others posting here. I understand what Glenn has been doing from the initial ad that was posted and locked then the trip to hell and back. Some people think it is soooo unthinkable to cull the animal and that was a comparison to things that happen every day and there is no massive outcry because of it, it is not so unthinkable. How is that hiding the issue for Glenn?? Culling the animal was one issue that Glenn was facing on this thread. I think that would fall under the "its future possible impact were it to be bred" portion of your last post.

 

[clifford]

Two points and then hopefully I'll think better of posting anything more to this thread.

I just read Yasser's post ...and I think that about sums it up. People have been throwing around what "big names" might or might not do with an animal like this one. Well, although he had the tact to not mention it, in the rhelm of scrubs, his is about as big as a name gets. He didn't snatch them up as the next big 'morph', but instead politely declined. I also noticed that he managed to post with a lot more tact than I and many of the rest of you did. Which again, brings up a name's reputation, and makes me wonder what people think of me when I post...

The second point is how quickly this thread came down with BOI syndrome. Don't get me wrong, I love the BOI, and check it before every transaction I make....but it always amazes me how everyone has to add so much craziness to these discussions.

So many of the threads here are like that, and I think it takes a lot of credibility away from the posters, and the board in general. Some people might not like this animal coming up for sale, as I myself didn't....but when it comes down to it, this guy hasn't screwed anyone. If he had posted it as flawless and sold it, he should get a "bad guy" thread a mile long...as in my oppinion should anyone selling normal looking offspring from this animal as normal. But he didn't do that...he put up an add for an animal he wanted to sell, and people went nuts (including me) because we didn't like the subject matter.

I've never thought of the BOI as a disscussion forum to decide who's popular, well liked, or even an SOB...I've always thought of it as a well-managed free classifieds/consumer protection board.
I hope that's how some of the rest of you feel too. I know everyone has their oppinion, and maybe you feel the need to vent it...but I still think the direction that this thread took is way off topic for the forum and doesn't really have a place here.

I saw a lot of arguments about bringing this thread back out of hell...but I think the moderator was right on. That's where this belongs. That, or maybe the next time one of us sees someone selling a "beautiful something or other" that we think is ugly we can start a mile long thread about what horrible unethical people they are for not listing it as an "ugly something or other".

Thoughts?

Cliff Miller