hhmoore
tired & cranky shadow
(I hate auto-correct....)
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Responding to email notices you receive.
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In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.
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IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed
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Posted 08/15/2025
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Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.
Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."
Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....
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Addendum: 01/10/2026
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
Bad Guy Harlequin Hoard
- Thread starter FullMetalOctopus
- Start date
Meg90
New member
HHMoore, the OP refused to have her items shipped as seen in the screencaps. This to me, is not the same as citing she never received them. That function, IMO is to be used when your items do not in fact show up on the agreed upon date. But again, that's just my view of it. I do see it as a lie, in that she could easily have gotten her items, but chose not to. The seller didn't take her money and then not send her animals.
I am also curious who "told" the OP that her animals hadn't grown during the hold period, as was stated in the screencaps.
I am also curious who "told" the OP that her animals hadn't grown during the hold period, as was stated in the screencaps.
FullMetalOctopus
Owner, Shaky Tail Exotics
I will point out for sake of clarity that PDV is far from a large scale breeder and rather a respected herpetologist.
But yes, this was the point I wished to convey about the TOS, thank you.
Mononoke
New member
If you "simply thought it was small" rather than unhealthy, why ask for a refund?
Meg90
New member
So then OP what you are trying to say with this BOI is that you reserve the right to agree to terms, and then to disagree as soon as it suits you, and that that is perfectly within your rights by law of relevant business.
Explain to me why then, and this is a legitimate question, anyone should ever sell to you online again? If your word is so worthless, and you change you mind at the drop of a hat?
What's to stop you from taking action like this again and again, since you seem to see no issue with it? Why should another seller trust that you will abide by their terms, and take your money, only to be used as your banking service or ATM when you decide you've wasted enough of their time and want your funds back?
Explain to me why then, and this is a legitimate question, anyone should ever sell to you online again? If your word is so worthless, and you change you mind at the drop of a hat?
What's to stop you from taking action like this again and again, since you seem to see no issue with it? Why should another seller trust that you will abide by their terms, and take your money, only to be used as your banking service or ATM when you decide you've wasted enough of their time and want your funds back?
FullMetalOctopus
Owner, Shaky Tail Exotics
I didnt pay $200 to receive an animal I felt was small for its age, and as the screenshots show I was completely unaware of the age until I went to go find the baby pictures.
FullMetalOctopus
Owner, Shaky Tail Exotics
It was far from just a change of heart, I was genuinely excited about the purchase. I was quite literally getting baby pictures for my records in anticipation of it being shipped when I noticed the date on the baby photo.
Mononoke
New member
If you were receiving baby photos, why did you say you were told the animal had not grown?
Basically it sounds like you are asking for a refund because it is inconvenient for you to grow the male out.
Basically it sounds like you are asking for a refund because it is inconvenient for you to grow the male out.
emilylovesherps
New member
Jenn, can you tell us why the quick change of heart, in all seriousness? It really sounds fishy, like someone is feeding you info.
I've done growth rates on geckos, and nothing is alarming here. I have heard of those who powerfeed geckos having egg binding issues and early deaths, so a three year term to adulthood is normal, and arguably even safer than pounding food into these guys. They have a very simple digestive system and it can really ruin their bodies. That being said, many of us veterans will likely be scratching our heads at the info you are giving us, especially since its none of your own experiences? You say you have 3 sources, but that is a very small sample. There are lots of us who are happy to mentor new owners, but now we are all going to be scared to because of this BOI.
I've done growth rates on geckos, and nothing is alarming here. I have heard of those who powerfeed geckos having egg binding issues and early deaths, so a three year term to adulthood is normal, and arguably even safer than pounding food into these guys. They have a very simple digestive system and it can really ruin their bodies. That being said, many of us veterans will likely be scratching our heads at the info you are giving us, especially since its none of your own experiences? You say you have 3 sources, but that is a very small sample. There are lots of us who are happy to mentor new owners, but now we are all going to be scared to because of this BOI.
FullMetalOctopus
Owner, Shaky Tail Exotics
Honestly, I misspoke as I have tons going on this week. No one has ever own the gecko but Margaret/AJD as far as I know and my issue is not growing him out. I have stated before, the issue is the age and weight. We seem to fundamentally disagree.
I had no plans for the male this season but my females I am growing up are rather large. It is a valid concern to breed a smaller male, is it not? If he is only 16g at 18 months at his current rate it stands that he will be 32 grams in 4 years at adulthood?
Vienna
New member
Crested geckos are cold blooded. Much of their growth rate depends on the temperatures they are kept at, the amount of protein provided, and genetics. If HH says that is normal for her colony, then it is normal. I keep my geckos colder than what some would consider normal, and thus they grow slower than pdv's definition of normal. 100% of the over 150 geckos I have raised to the size of the gecko in question took about 2 years to do so. All of the geckos I raised to adulthood reached 50+ grams by year 3. The fact that you consider it abnormal based on someone else's care is just a fundamental lack of understanding when it comes to these animals.
Mononoke
New member
This is all postulation on your part, though. His adult weight could be ascertained by a mean of the parent's weights; furthermore, I believe Phillippe de Vosjoli (a person who you respect for their expertise with crested geckos) has written that this species attains an adult weight at 30 grams.
I have not heard that breeding males at a smaller weight could injure them if paired with a large female, though I may be wrong. Purchasing a subadult gecko also does not guarantee its breedability as well. If your concern was being able to successfully breed a male harlequin, perhaps you should have purchased an adult male harlequin...?
Meg90
New member
One of my best animals was a 6g yearling. I think the main issue here, is that you have been reading outdated information.
Hatchdate, clearly stated 9.10.12
This animal at 11mos old and 6g
The same animal at 17mos old and 14g
And now, her currently, a healthy breeding adult at just under three years old and closing in on 50g (in the photo 46g)
As others have stated, there are plenty of factors that go into growth rate. I've personally never seen a healthy, yet slow growing animal become "stunted" in 8yrs in the hobby. Some just grow slowly. As Miranda stated, its a better field of thought to look at the adult weights of the parents, if you want an idea of what size the animal can/will attain.
I've had a couple slow growers, and they've usually personally been some of the best animals in my collection. The animal posted in the photos in this post is 100% healthy, a great eater, and has eggs incubating at this time. Slow growth does not mean a gecko is less desirable or unhealthy, or will not reach good size.
Hatchdate, clearly stated 9.10.12
This animal at 11mos old and 6g
The same animal at 17mos old and 14g
And now, her currently, a healthy breeding adult at just under three years old and closing in on 50g (in the photo 46g)
As others have stated, there are plenty of factors that go into growth rate. I've personally never seen a healthy, yet slow growing animal become "stunted" in 8yrs in the hobby. Some just grow slowly. As Miranda stated, its a better field of thought to look at the adult weights of the parents, if you want an idea of what size the animal can/will attain.
I've had a couple slow growers, and they've usually personally been some of the best animals in my collection. The animal posted in the photos in this post is 100% healthy, a great eater, and has eggs incubating at this time. Slow growth does not mean a gecko is less desirable or unhealthy, or will not reach good size.
ohsocrazie
New member
Sellers terms clearly state no refunds. You the buyer agree to these terms when you sent payment. If you had questions/concerns you should have brought them up prior to payment being sent. Temps greatly effect growth rate I have had some geckos take 4+ years to reach adulthood. Margaret is well known trusted breeder who has been in business many years.
This is my second season I've had a gecko in HH care on loan and she is thriving producing beautiful babies. My gecko is a nice high end female and worth a good deal of money and I trust HH completely with her care.
This is my second season I've had a gecko in HH care on loan and she is thriving producing beautiful babies. My gecko is a nice high end female and worth a good deal of money and I trust HH completely with her care.
ReptileFanBoy69
New member
So you're dismissing everyone's personal experience with growth rates as anecdotal and yet you're evidence goes as followed. You sight Brian Butlers article and in the first sentence he says he's sharing HIS PERSONAL FINDINGS on crested gecko growth rates.So you are dismissing a collective experience for basically one persons opinion which is in itself anecdotal. The second article says in the last paragraph "Regardless of the time it takes for geckos to grow and become an adult, as long as your gecko is eating and appears healthy, you have little to worry about." So that doesn't support your argument at all. Why would you even bother using that as evidence, did you even read the article thoroughly? And finally you post a book written ten years ago with the author dealing with mostly wild caught geckos and a few generations of their offspring so I wouldn't really see this as in line with the current state of the hobby. You're grasping at straws here. Maybe you should do actually research instead on clinging to one persons opinion as honest fact.
itsMiSTY
dark mark inc.
Buyer, you agreed to the seller's Terms when you sent payment. Nothing has been hidden from you, nor have you been wronged in the least.
I personally have a good few geckos from HH. Have done business with them for years. Their husbandry is spot-on.
These animals are not quick growers. It takes at least three years to reach the general adult size. The example given by Meg90 is very accurate, in regards to normal growth rate. Given I do not know you, but it simply seems to me that you should probably learn a bit more about the complete 'ins and outs' of these animals.
Bottom line is this: You agreed to the seller's ToS. Nothing untoward about the transaction has occurred. Next time, I would ask any questions you might have before agreeing to the seller's terms and sending payment.
I personally have a good few geckos from HH. Have done business with them for years. Their husbandry is spot-on.
These animals are not quick growers. It takes at least three years to reach the general adult size. The example given by Meg90 is very accurate, in regards to normal growth rate. Given I do not know you, but it simply seems to me that you should probably learn a bit more about the complete 'ins and outs' of these animals.
Bottom line is this: You agreed to the seller's ToS. Nothing untoward about the transaction has occurred. Next time, I would ask any questions you might have before agreeing to the seller's terms and sending payment.
FullMetalOctopus
Owner, Shaky Tail Exotics
Thought I'd post a closing statement, as there is nothing more to be said past this.
I did my best to resolve the business matter quickly and with discretion until the seller made clear this was no longer a private matter. I have laid out the issue, stated my position, presented sources instead of personal anecdotes.
I had only heard good things about the seller in the past and while they may have had perfect transactions with her, mine was not. I am not calling into question others' experience as buyers but was put in a very unfortunate position by the seller.
I was threatened with a BOI very quickly and our private business dealings were being discussed with parties not involved in this transaction on Facebook.
Put another way, the seller had many chances to come clean about the gecko's age and didn't (see attached image that states something entirely different for selling, no age given.) The outcome would have been different had this been mentioned by the seller. At this point, the issue was outside the TOS, as the seller was not forthcoming with this.
That was the issue, a breach of trust and the subsequent threats of negative a BOI filed for not closing out a chargeback (which is something I see constantly advised here on Fauna's BOI against doing so) until the seller and buyer have resolved the matter at hand.
Lastly, I would like to address the debate on growth rates: I don't understand why others are admitting to having slow growing animals themselves, if most geckos are 40g at two years old, then perhaps instead of defending methods that are resulting in animals much smaller at this age, the focus should be on how can one improve their practices.
I did my best to resolve the business matter quickly and with discretion until the seller made clear this was no longer a private matter. I have laid out the issue, stated my position, presented sources instead of personal anecdotes.
I had only heard good things about the seller in the past and while they may have had perfect transactions with her, mine was not. I am not calling into question others' experience as buyers but was put in a very unfortunate position by the seller.
I was threatened with a BOI very quickly and our private business dealings were being discussed with parties not involved in this transaction on Facebook.
Put another way, the seller had many chances to come clean about the gecko's age and didn't (see attached image that states something entirely different for selling, no age given.) The outcome would have been different had this been mentioned by the seller. At this point, the issue was outside the TOS, as the seller was not forthcoming with this.
That was the issue, a breach of trust and the subsequent threats of negative a BOI filed for not closing out a chargeback (which is something I see constantly advised here on Fauna's BOI against doing so) until the seller and buyer have resolved the matter at hand.
Lastly, I would like to address the debate on growth rates: I don't understand why others are admitting to having slow growing animals themselves, if most geckos are 40g at two years old, then perhaps instead of defending methods that are resulting in animals much smaller at this age, the focus should be on how can one improve their practices.
Attachments
MLSH
New member
Hi Jenn, I just hopped on and would like to respond to your closing statement. I did not threaten you with a BOI "very quickly" - I simply informed you that if you filed a paypal dispute for items not received after refusing shipment I would file a BOI. I was not hasty on the BOI and you posted one on me before I posted anything on you. At 7:05 PM ( as seen in this first screenshot ) I offered you full sibling replacement animal and you ignored my offer choosing to file a chargeback. After you filed a chargeback, I messaged you at 10:19pm AGAIN offering you store credit or a replacement full sibling animal which you again refused. LATER after I said I would post a BOI, you suddenly wanted to take me up on seeing possible replacements.
You say that I had "many chances to come clean about the animal's age" but the animals age is not an issue to me, there is nothing to "come clean about" as the age of the animal is available publicly at any time. As several others have now corroborated, this growth rate and age is NOT something completely abnormal. This animal was a previous growout/holdback and there are multiple dated photos of it available publicly on my page like any other holdback or growout. The age or size of the animal has nothing to do with why I sold it - exactly like the short description on the animal's sale ad states, I was choosing to part with him due to the proximity of related animals in my colony and due to wanting to prune back the number of growouts I kept. I have been completely transparent with you and ANY and all questions you asked were answered about the animals and my husbandry. If you had asked ANY of these questions prior to purchase, I would happily have answer them at that time as well. I re-iterate, we keep geckos different and as such they grow at different rates.
You say that I had "many chances to come clean about the animal's age" but the animals age is not an issue to me, there is nothing to "come clean about" as the age of the animal is available publicly at any time. As several others have now corroborated, this growth rate and age is NOT something completely abnormal. This animal was a previous growout/holdback and there are multiple dated photos of it available publicly on my page like any other holdback or growout. The age or size of the animal has nothing to do with why I sold it - exactly like the short description on the animal's sale ad states, I was choosing to part with him due to the proximity of related animals in my colony and due to wanting to prune back the number of growouts I kept. I have been completely transparent with you and ANY and all questions you asked were answered about the animals and my husbandry. If you had asked ANY of these questions prior to purchase, I would happily have answer them at that time as well. I re-iterate, we keep geckos different and as such they grow at different rates.
Attachments
sungmina
Member
Jenn, I hope that you can see that your actions were unjustified.
There is no "admitting" to having slow growing geckos because the word implies guilt or wrongdoing. There is nothing wrong with the rate at which the gecko is growing. It is within the realm of normal within the community, that is what everyone is trying to explain to you. Just because your opinion is different does not make everyone else wrong.
Margaret has clearly made every effort to try and resolve this issue fairly but you are not trying to meet her in any way as far as I can see.
Also, as far as the ad, I rarely put hatch dates or ages on my ads. I do not think it is required. The Harlequin Hoard Facebook page is public for anyone to find out ages or approximate ages of holdbacks. She never hid the information or lied about it. If you were so concerned about age, perhaps you should have asked before you sent a payment and therefore agreed to her ToS.
There is no "admitting" to having slow growing geckos because the word implies guilt or wrongdoing. There is nothing wrong with the rate at which the gecko is growing. It is within the realm of normal within the community, that is what everyone is trying to explain to you. Just because your opinion is different does not make everyone else wrong.
Margaret has clearly made every effort to try and resolve this issue fairly but you are not trying to meet her in any way as far as I can see.
Also, as far as the ad, I rarely put hatch dates or ages on my ads. I do not think it is required. The Harlequin Hoard Facebook page is public for anyone to find out ages or approximate ages of holdbacks. She never hid the information or lied about it. If you were so concerned about age, perhaps you should have asked before you sent a payment and therefore agreed to her ToS.
Loganwoody32
New member
My issue with all this is that you agreed upon the sellers terms and agreements when you sent your payment. This to many means you understand and abide by the terms given. If you can't respect the given terms do not purchase the animal. when I purchase an animal questions always come first, hatch date/age, weight, lineage, additional pictures of parents, siblings or any other related geckos. You did not as these questions it seems and you went ahead and made your decision upon no further "investigation" of the animal being purchased.
The other discrepancy in your statements is that you are seeking old information. Geckos all grow at different rates. I have geckos that are 3 years old and still not of breeding weight and this is probably due to genetics as I have others who are 18 months and sitting at 36g+. Your unbending thought that a gecko must or should be near breeding weight at the age of 2 years is true only to extent of what gecko/ genetics we are talking about.
I find it very rude that you filed a charge back through PayPal as this now makes the seller look bad. You are at fault for your lack in research with the seller and to say that you feel that the DOH should be included in the AD isn't the sellers fault, with a little search I even noticed you don't have a DOH on some of your listings. I don't mean to nit pick but isn't it hypocritical to say a seller should do something when you don't even do it yourself?
All in all the seller HH is in the right and what you have done makes you look bad to sellers as you seem to be not trustable to many now. as previously stated you agreed to the TOS when you sent your payment, any additional info should have been requested before hand by you and if you did not, thats is your fault.
The other discrepancy in your statements is that you are seeking old information. Geckos all grow at different rates. I have geckos that are 3 years old and still not of breeding weight and this is probably due to genetics as I have others who are 18 months and sitting at 36g+. Your unbending thought that a gecko must or should be near breeding weight at the age of 2 years is true only to extent of what gecko/ genetics we are talking about.
I find it very rude that you filed a charge back through PayPal as this now makes the seller look bad. You are at fault for your lack in research with the seller and to say that you feel that the DOH should be included in the AD isn't the sellers fault, with a little search I even noticed you don't have a DOH on some of your listings. I don't mean to nit pick but isn't it hypocritical to say a seller should do something when you don't even do it yourself?
All in all the seller HH is in the right and what you have done makes you look bad to sellers as you seem to be not trustable to many now. as previously stated you agreed to the TOS when you sent your payment, any additional info should have been requested before hand by you and if you did not, thats is your fault.