Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[jsrocket]

All rivalries aside, I think the real question is, should someone be liable for a parasitic infection 10 months later? The answer is no.

No matter how you spin it, that problem is YOUR fault.

 

[Wilomn]

Guys, she's NOT blaming anyone or asking for anything.

It's just a headsup for anyone else who got something from mr. clark. If hers were misrepresented, someone elses may have been as well.

Try reading the whole thing before you over react.

 

[cookreptiles]

if someone contacted me about geckos i sent them being parasite ridden, regardless of the time frame i would immediately have all of my geckos tested. i would certainly want to know if i had parasites that i didn't know about in my collection. if i found parasites i would refund the person who contacted me for any vet costs and the cost of the gecko(s) they got from me. coccidia is extremely serious, and not something to be taken lightly by any means.

the other females i received from ed have vet appointments on thursday. i suspect that they have parasites as well, but of course i can't be 100% sure until i get the results of the fecal. the reason i suspect it is because all are great eaters, yet none have gained any substantial amount of weight since i received them, which is common in snakes with tapeworms. these are 2005 females that eat every week on the dot, yet only weigh 400-550 grams. obviously something is not right when all of my other snakes are gaining weight and thriving as normal, healthy snakes do.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

All rivalries aside, I think the real question is, should someone be liable for a parasitic infection 10 months later? The answer is no.

No matter how you spin it, that problem is YOUR fault.

i dont think that is the case. The parasites could have been there from the start, and just did not get to be too much until now.

The question is, if these animals are CB, there should not be any parasites in them at all right? the fact that there is now, and possibly was when she received them is what should be the focus of this thread.

 

[Junkyard]

What type species of tapeworm and strongyloides did the vet conclude? Some species of tapeworm have a life cycle of 6-8 weeks and other take 6-7 months. Strongyloides species can live from 400 days to longer. Coccidia is also capable of living for long periods of time without any symptoms showing in the reptile, but can become severe under stress by the reptile.

 

[monkeywrench133]

It's just a headsup for anyone else who got something from mr. clark. If hers were misrepresented, someone elses may have been as well.

I agree Wes, if she was sold captive BORN when she paid for captive BRED, then she has a legitimate gripe.

I'm curious to see what the emails contain regarding that matter.

 

[cookreptiles]

All rivalries aside, I think the real question is, should someone be liable for a parasitic infection 10 months later? The answer is no.

No matter how you spin it, that problem is YOUR fault.

it is my fault if i was sent snakes that were ridden with parasites?

i just want people to be aware of the situation so that they can take appropriate action with their animals.

 

[jsrocket]

Wes, she's not precisely blaming, she's doing the "passive aggressive" routine. Who me?

 

[Wilomn]

Wes, she's not precisely blaming, she's doing the "passive aggressive" routine. Who me?

I disagree.

She has flat out stated she wants nothing but to make others aware that she got animals that should have NONE of these problems from mr. clark.

Sounds like a pretty good guy to me, just looking out for her fellow hobbiest and taking responsibility for her own animals, their expense for treatment and care, on her own.

 

[monkeywrench133]

it is my fault if i was sent snakes that were ridden with parasites?

No, but it is your fault you didn't have them checked when you got them, or at least sooner than this.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Wes, she's not precisely blaming, she's doing the "passive aggressive" routine. Who me?

uh i dont see that, especially when she is clearly stating that is not her intent.

I have an animal that passed through eds hands as well, and while i have no personal issues with him, i WILL get a fecal exam done to be sure. Theres nothing wrong with a fair warning to others out there, Especially when it involves this sort of thing.

 

[cookreptiles]

e-mail correspondence for the transaction is as follows, with the most relevant items highlighted in red:


From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: trade

Emily,hi. sure I would be interested in trading some bps for cresteds, not looking for tiny babies. have a couple of 06 male pastels, some 05 hold back females that i produced last year. I do alot of pastels,mojaves,spiders and end up with alot of normals.which is ok with me. looking for 1.5 right now.all different colors if possible.may do a larger trade after yhis one.the females that i have are in the 250-350 gram range.I still have more than I want to keep and can send you some pics.heres a couple that I grabbed out of the baby rack.what kind of value do you put on the 1.5 group?

ps all my stuff is as clean as you will find.
_________________________________________________

Emily Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Ed,

Your females look good! I would love to get my hands on a mojave or spider male but that may have to wait until you want to do a larger trade.

The value of a 1.5 group depends entirely on the animals and their individual worth. An nice 1.5 group would be worth about $700 while a more high end group would be more like $900, so it just depends on what you are looking for, but I can easily put together a mixed group of colors/morphs and unrelated geckos for you. I have both males and females but most of my females are not breeding age/weight yet. Most of my available females are in the 5-9 month old range so some of them should be ready by the beginning of '07 if that works for you.

Thanks!
Emily

_________________________________________________

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons
To: Emily Cook
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: trade

Emily.put togeather a group of 1.5 older ones for 700.00 send to; ed clark
[address removed]
i will photo some nice females(2005's) and start sending you pics. for you to choose from. a fair trade would be me sending you 6 captive bred females.
I will pay shipping on my end. fedex
you pay to ship the geckos to me.
im really expecting some nice geckos for the 6 ball pythons.
if this trade goes well, I have plenty of mojaves and spiders.
if you want to check me out. fauna classifieds, boi. user name ED CLARK

_________________________________________________

Emily Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Ed,

I just got finished feeding and cleaning gecko cages and picked out a nice 1.5 group for you. The male is a nicely structured patternless red and unrelated to the females. The females are an assortment of morphs and colors. I have louped all of the females to check for pre-anal pores and at this time they show none, but just in case one of them does turn out to be male (I am 99% sure they are all females) as does happen from time to time with cresteds I will send you a replacement female free of charge. All I ask is that you send me a photo of the gecko showing that is has in fact turned out to be a male. Basically this just offers both you and I protection, so that you get a correctly sexed gecko regardless, and so that I have to opportunity to fix things should a gecko turn out male after several months with you. While it isn't likely that this will happen, with crested geckos every once in a while a male will develop late and throw things off.

How would you feel about trading this group toward a mojave or spider male? I will send them to you and you can check them out and think about it. If you decide that you want to go ahead and do a larger trade I will ship however many more geckos it takes to reach the value of a mojave or spider. If you decide that you do not want to do a larger trade you can go ahead and send me the 6 females. I am not in a rush to get the snake(s) because I am moving sometime between October 6-15th (depending on the final closing date on the house) so it would be better for me not to receive any new snakes until after the move, so if you need some time to think about it you can take all you need.

How does next week look for you as far as receiving the geckos? I can ship any day Monday-Wednesday. They will be shipped via UPS Next Day Air and I will provide you with a tracking number as soon as they go out, which is generally after 5:30pm since I like to wait until later in the day to drop them off.

Thanks and let me know what you think,
Emily

_________________________________________________

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons <[email protected]>
Date: September 27, 2006 4:30:13 AM EDT
To: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: trade

Emily, I can hold off on sending you your end of the deal. I have a clutch of mojaves that have recently hatched and would consider trading a male out of that group, I really hate selling these morph babies but understand thats the plan. over the past 2 years I have built up a group of 80 plus females and have decieded that I need to sell off about 70 of them thats what all the ads are about. Im making alot of people happy with them though. I really dont know how many geckos I'll end up with, got those 5 off of the guy from nebraska and yours, thats a nice group to start with. shipping on monday would be good. Thanks ED

_________________________________________________

From: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Date: September 27, 2006 1:54:07 PM EDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Re: trade

Hi Ed,

That sounds great. I think that some of Tanner's females are close to or perhaps ready to breed already so that will help you get a little head start.

What is the trade value for one of your mojave males? I want to go ahead and start pulling some geckos to hold for you for the second trade group so I'm sure I have enough when the time comes.

I will ship your geckos out Monday evening and will send you the tracking information once they have gone out.

Thanks!
Emily

_________________________________________________

Emily Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
Ed,

I shipped your geckos out this evening via UPS Next Day Air. The tracking number is 1ZX8101R2492679150. Please let me know when they arrive so I know they got there safely. I hope you like them!

Thanks,
Emily

_________________________________________________

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons <[email protected]>
Date: October 3, 2006 10:24:17 AM EDT
To: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: tracking info

Emily, hello. recieved the geckos in good condition. got to get them warmed up now, let me know when you can handle the ball pythons. thanks ED

_________________________________________________

From: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Date: October 3, 2006 4:26:31 PM EDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Re: tracking info

Hi Ed,

Thanks for letting me know they arrived. Hopefully they will all color up for you tonight so you can see them looking at their best Just so you know they are all unrelated except that the red dalmation female and the dark chocolate/orange flame female have the same father.

Just let me know when you want more...

Thanks,
Emily

_________________________________________________

Emily Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Ed,

Just wanted to check in and see where we stand on the trade. I am all set up and ready to go now, so I can receive a mojave or some normals or anything else any time Just let me know what you want to do.

Thanks!
Emily

_________________________________________________

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons <[email protected]>
Date: October 31, 2006 12:26:11 AM EST
To: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: trade

Can ship tuesday for wednesday. if my heat packs come in tomorrow. ED

_________________________________________________

Emily Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
That works for me, just let me know for sure which day. Here is my shipping info:

[address removed]

Thanks!
Emily

_________________________________________________

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons <[email protected]>
Date: October 31, 2006 2:21:15 PM EST
To: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: trade

Fedex tracking # will be there wednesdau am 8582 6414 3514 please let me know that they arrived safely. Thanks ED

_________________________________________________


From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons <[email protected]>
Date: October 31, 2006 8:25:16 PM EST
To: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: trade

Emily, the 4 in the big bag eat rats. the 2 in the smaller bag eat mice. but that can change. one of those needs a 10 minute soak, you will see her she has a stuck piece of skin on her face. I seen it, but did not have time to soak her. would have missed fedex. ED

_________________________________________________

From: Emily Cook <[email protected]>
Date: November 1, 2006 11:47:30 AM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Re: trade

Hi Ed,

The girls arrived safely and all look great. Most of the skin on the one girl peeled right off. I am in the process of switching my one mouse eater over to rats right now so I'll just add these 2 mouse eaters to the process

Thanks again,
Emily

 

[Wilomn]

No, but it is your fault you didn't have them checked when you got them, or at least sooner than this.

Of course, if one purchases captive bred animals, holdbacks as it were from a personal collection from someone who pretends to breed a great many when in fact he produces relatively few, then not getting a fecal can be understood.

Afterall, mr. clark talks it up pretty well. I would not be surprised if he told her no fecals were necessary since they were from his personal collection.

Of course, that is pure speculation on my part, but I could EASILY see it happening, knowing mr. clark as I do.

 

[KelliH]

if someone contacted me about geckos i sent them being parasite ridden, regardless of the time frame i would immediately have all of my geckos tested. i would certainly want to know if i had parasites that i didn't know about in my collection. if i found parasites i would refund the person who contacted me for any vet costs and the cost of the gecko(s) they got from me. coccidia is extremely serious, and not something to be taken lightly by any means.

Absolutely, and I have no doubts whatsoever about your integrity. Would you think it would be the right thing to do for this hypothetical person to post about such a matter on the BOI? If you (and others I respect) think that is a perfectly ok and acceptable thing to do in a situation like this then perhaps my brain is foggy from lack of sleep and a rather irritating migraine headache I have had all day, but in my state of mind at the moment, I have to say that is not only an unprofessional thing to do, but in basic terms, well, it was a really, really uncool thing to do as well. Again, maybe I am missing something here, and I do understand your reasoning about wanting to warn others and give them a heads up to have fecals done on snakes purchased from Ed, but should not that be something for Ed to do himself, and not on a public forum, but rather privately via telephone and email?

 

[cookreptiles]

No, but it is your fault you didn't have them checked when you got them, or at least sooner than this.

You are absolutely correct. I should have had fecals done on them as soon as I got the snakes and for that I am now paying the price. So many others like me trust the source of their snakes and don't get fecals done, thus the point of this post. Regardless of the source, get a fecal done because you never know!

 

[jsrocket]

Good discussion, all. I gotta hit the sack.

 

[Ed Clark]

Emily, we did a trade deal about a year ago with some baby ball pythons, for some of your crested geckos.

Did you do fecal exams on these babies at that time when you recieved them? I know you added other balls to your collection after you recieved those babies from me...did you do fecals on them?

I have a very good herp vet that I use and we do random fecals on my adult breeders and have not had any positive results yet for internal parasites...all negative!

Dont you think these parasites would have shown up in these Ball Pythons before this. its been about a year since I shipped these to you?

 

[Wilomn]

Absolutely, and I have no doubts whatsoever about your integrity. Would you think it would be the right thing to do for this hypothetical person to post about such a matter on the BOI? If you (and others I respect) think that is a perfectly ok and acceptable thing to do in a situation like this then perhaps my brain is foggy from lack of sleep and a rather irritating migraine headache I have had all day, but in my state of mind at the moment, I have to say that is not only an unprofessional thing to do, but in basic terms, well, it was a really, really uncool thing to do as well. Again, maybe I am missing something here, and I do understand your reasoning about wanting to warn others and give them a heads up to have fecals done on snakes purchased from Ed, but should not that be something for Ed to do himself, and not on a public forum, but rather privately via telephone and email?

I can see both sides of this.

But, when I consider the source and how he has lied and tried to mislead others in the recent past, even if it weren't mr. clark, I would say go public and let the cards fall where they may.

Emily does not owe mr. clark anything. It's almost certain that she got imports, very EXPENSIVE imports, instead of the captive bred holdbacks she was promised.

Sometimes you're just too nice Kelli.

IF this were someone like you, someone who has NEVER lied on the boi, who has NEVER misrepresented an animal, NEVER hijacked someone elses add, NEVER pretended to be some sort of bigtime breeder, then I could see keeping it private.

That is simply NOT the case with mr. clark. He has done all of the above.

I, for one, think Emily did the right thing.

 

[KelliH]

I do understand what you are saying, Wes. I can see both sides also, I can, I am just leaning more towards one side than the other. I think I'll end my participation in this discussion for now at least, as I have expressed my views on the matter.

 

[cookreptiles]

Emily, we did a trade deal about a year ago with some baby ball pythons, for some of your crested geckos.

Did you do fecal exams on these babies at that time when you recieved them? I know you added other balls to your collection after you recieved those babies from me...did you do fecals on them?

I have a very good herp vet that I use and we do random fecals on my adult breeders and have not had any positive results yet for internal parasites...all negative!

Dont you think these parasites would have shown up in these Ball Pythons before this. its been about a year since I shipped these to you?

Ed, they weren't babies. You told me that they were captive bred 2005 females--I received them on November 1, 2006 so they should have been at least a year old or close to it.

I already stated that I did not do fecals on the snakes when I received them as you had assured me that your snakes were clean. I trusted you.

Tapeworms do not normally expel themselves from ball pythons and can live in their intestines indefinitely. They do not come out unless there is some kind of irritation that causes them to do so. Perhaps the tapeworm in this female started to cause a decline in her health which caused elevated levels of the coccidia--enough for the tapeworms to come out. So no, I do not think that the parasites should have shown up before now, I'm just lucky that they did now rather than later.

Can you post the results of the tests from your herp vet? Why do you only test your adult breeders and not any of the hundreds of other animals (many of which are ch) that come through your facility? Negative results from only your adults breeders, which are probably housed completely separately from the stock that you sell, doesn't mean a whole lot.