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Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

monkeywrench133 said:
And everyone on here would rightfully be berating Ed for trying to blame Emily for parasites in animals he'd had in his care for 10 months.

At no time did Emily blame Ed. She had well founded suspicions that it came from Ed and contacted him privately in hopes of working with him about this problem. To find out conclusively. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have to say Erin, your constant need to ignore facts, distort facts and you creating your own "facts" the last couple of weeks has proven you to not be the person I thought you were.
 
Seamus Haley said:
Now we have more than one person who's refferencing the email correspondance from Post Eleven of this thread and claiming that Ed's response was damning. Look back at that post, read the text of the email that was supposedly sent to Ed, then read his supposed response. Ed's response is clearly, without question, a response to a question asking if the animals sent were CB or not. A question that is never asked in the email that he was alledgedly responding to. It's a broken email chain, something is clearly missing and it's omission constitutes a blatant, bold faced LIE on the part of Emily or whoever is coaching her in her responses. "I sent this" "This was his response" when the response makes absolutely no sense in relation to the email he was supposedly responding to. Ed's response reads a lot more like it was issued as a reply to an email asking if the snakes in that sale were CB, CH or WC and, not remembering the specific sale, he replies that he'll need to check his records. Where in any of that is there guilt of wrongdoing?

Sorry, quick amendment- post eleven, Emily said the text she was quoting was from private messages sent via this site. So every instance where I mentioned "email" above should have been "private message"
 
shrap said:
At no time did Emily blame Ed. She had well founded suspicions that it came from Ed and contacted him privately in hopes of working with him about this problem. To find out conclusively. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sammy, I didn't say that Emily was blaming Ed. She isn't.

I was responding to Joanna's scenario of "Ed would be screaming up and down the BOI wouldn't he, calling Emily every name in the book". Which I interpreted as meaning he'd be blaming her high and low. Then, Yeah!, people would rightly be hanging him out to dry.

Emily has been pretty reasonable about this whole situation actually.

Sorry you took what I said wrong.
 
monkeywrench133 said:
Sammy, I didn't say that Emily was blaming Ed. She isn't.
...
Emily has been pretty reasonable about this whole situation actually.

I disagree. Her first post she states-
This is proof enough for me that the snakes I received from Ed were infested with parasites at the time I received them. I should have been wise enough to run fecals on them immediately even though, at the time, I trusted the source.

She blames him, she names him as responsible.

Then she AGAIN blames him, blatantly in what she claims was her first contact with him about the situation. Check those last few lines especially, she not only blames him, but she proceeds to threaten him with an ultimatum.

Originally Posted by cookreptiles
hi ed,

remember the group of female ball pythons that you sent me last year in trade for a group of cresteds? one of them passed a mass of tapeworms yesterday so i took her to the vet today. a fecal found tapeworms, strongiloides and a high number of coccidia.

the girls all eat great but none of them have really gained much weight, which makes sense now. i have had fecals done on a few of my other snakes in the recent past, which all came out clear. my other snakes are also all growing normally, so i am almost 100% certain that the only snakes that have internal parasites are the ones i received from you. i will be having fecals done on all of my snakes over the next few weeks in order to confirm this.

i wanted to let you know this so you can take the necessary measures to test and treat your collection, especially since coccidia is fairly serious. i feel that this is something that others with snakes that came from you should know, so that they can test and treat their snakes as well. i hope that you will take the initiative to issue a public alert, however, should you choose not to do so, i will post a warning so that people can take the appropriate action.

thanks,
emily cook
 
Seamus, we've chatted about this and I STILL think that mr. clark sold animals that were not what he said they were. I STILL think the parasites came from the snakes mr. clark sold.

In view of the fact that Emily wants NO compensation and that even YOU, for whom I have a great deal of respect, cannot conclusively say they did NOT come from mr. clark with parasites, I must, once again, publicly disagree with your take on this.

There is NO love lost between mr. clark and I and I may have been more outspoken with him because of that, but being outspoken while spanking a scumbag does NOTHING to change the fact that he is, indeed, a scumbag.

Had it been anyone else, I would have said nothing I didn't say here. Perhaps not as often or loudly, but the facts as I interpret them are leading me to a different conclusion than the one you are reaching, as we both saw in chat.

I can see how you reached your conclusions, I have explored them myself, tried them on for size, walked a mile in your tiny (please see the humor that is intended) shoes, and concluded that I do not agree with your conclusion.

Emily is a relative newcomer to ball pythons. The slow growth rate is entirely plausible and the not really noticing it is not unusual in a newb. I'm sure her vet scared the crap out of her when she brought in the tapeworms and had the one snake tested. That fear is to be expected, she does not have the wealth of experiance you and I and many others here have. It may well be that her vet mentioned only in passing that the parasites found in her snake are commonly found in imported snakes and that lead Emily to question mr. clark about the origins of her snakes.

Even so, she has asked nothing, provided everything she could in the way of information and yet you still insist on saying she is the puppet without naming a master. She has said point blank that she came here of her own accord. So far she has been NOTHING but honest as far as I can tell.

Can you say the same for mr. clark? He's being crucified because of his own actions and the lack of redeeming actions.

The guy got caught, I think, doing a bait and switch. It IS entirely possilble that it DID take 10 months for the parasite load to reach the level it did, you and I and many others both know this. It may not be common, but it IS possible.

In this case, I say benefit of the doubt goes to Emily UNLESS and UNTILL mr. clark can prove what he sold to her and that his collection is CLEAN.
 
The parasite issue will never be resolved due to the length of time that has passed.

The ONLY thing I can think of that would be conclusive is the origins of the snakes. I think Ed has had enough time to "check his records".

So....What is it Ed?

Were the snakes captive born and bred future breeder holdbacks OR were they CH imports?

That is the only issue I can see that Ed would be able to address after all the time that has passed.
 
Ed being quiet tips my views on him more and more. While Emily maybe presenting selctive info or drawing conclusions wrongly or without sufficient evidence, it is the only side we really have. Ed isn't providing anything. We can pick apart what Emily ahs posted but at least she has posted.

Ed's lack of resposne is more damning then anything anyone here types.
 
The reptile industry is a tight nit community. everybody knows everybody lol !! The only REAL thing you have going for you is your reputation , once you lose that, or it comes into question, you might as well pack it up and go home ! Ed may think that those stupid people on the BOI are just a small percentage and really don't make a difference to him. But in the big scheme of things , he is just killing himself slowly and surely by not rsponding to an issue he has with a past sale. He may be 100 % correct on every point , but his avoidence leaves it up to the general public to make there own conclusions about the situation. And that in my opinion is the WORST thing you can do.
 
exactly!

Seamus Haley said:
This has turned into something beyond reprehensible.

Conclusions are being drawn with insufficient evidence to support them, accusations are being looked at as if there were no alternatives andthere's a definite lynch mob kind of feeling to the entire thing.

I don't like Ed. I actively dislike Ed for a number of reasons. That said, as far as this situation goes he's being stomped on without justification.

Ten months after animals leave his posession they're found to have a parasite load and the current owner has the audacity, the sheer gall to decide without question or hesitancy that it's the fault of the dealer. More than three hundred days in her care and the idea that the issue was accidently introduced on her end doesn't even seem to enter into her head. It's an absurdity.

The thread is created anyway. Conclusions are pulled directly out of the collective asses of some people who would like to see Ed fail and apparantly do not care by what method that happens. No matter that condemning him includes writing tirades that go against all common sense and ignoring biological fact because it's inconveniently counter to their goal. Furthermore, after wandering into the Fauna chat on Parasite Gate: Day One and getting to see a few lines of what were clearly a calculated planning session outlining a strategy of attack- I'm personally convinced that Emily was strongly influenced by parties with an agenda into making her post.

A few people wander by, notice that there's some highly inaccurate garbage being thrown around about parasite transmission and impartially correct those pieces of misinformation.

Denied that line of attack, Ed's most rabid attackers decide that the prescence of parasites ten months after a sale is apparantly a conclusive piece of information that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he misrepresented wild caught or captive hatched animals as captive bred. A leap Evil Kneival couldn't make if he had NASA backing him with new rocket cycle designs.

Now we have more than one person who's refferencing the email correspondance from Post Eleven of this thread and claiming that Ed's response was damning. Look back at that post, read the text of the email that was supposedly sent to Ed, then read his supposed response. Ed's response is clearly, without question, a response to a question asking if the animals sent were CB or not. A question that is never asked in the email that he was alledgedly responding to. It's a broken email chain, something is clearly missing and it's omission constitutes a blatant, bold faced LIE on the part of Emily or whoever is coaching her in her responses. "I sent this" "This was his response" when the response makes absolutely no sense in relation to the email he was supposedly responding to. Ed's response reads a lot more like it was issued as a reply to an email asking if the snakes in that sale were CB, CH or WC and, not remembering the specific sale, he replies that he'll need to check his records. Where in any of that is there guilt of wrongdoing?

Where in ANY of this is there wrongdoing?

Ed sent some snakes, the buyer was happy for ten months and then finds a parasite load. They send him an email, according to their timeline, the first one on the subject, that contains unfounded accusations and has an ultimatum as it's closing line. His response was short and unhelpful but the approach was agressive and combative. No wrongdoing.

He may have sent animals that contained a parasite load so minor and difficult to detect that the new owner wasn't aware of it for nearly a year. No wrongdoing.

This thread is created and immediately explodes with contributions from people who, like myself, don't like Ed. Anyone know for a fact how long the thread was when he first saw it or was informed that it existed? I have no idea myself but it looks possible based on the time frame between the first fifty odd posts that it was pages and pages long. The bulk of that being made up of what I can only call abusive judgement founded in erronious reasoning. What could he have possibly said at that point that would have explained *anything*? What could he possibly say now? It's clear that nothing but an admission of guilt will be accepted by some of his detractors, there are many, many people who have clearly made up their minds and won't even attempt any kind of impartiality if asked to weigh evidence that might exhonerate him.

And that isn't sitting well with me. This is not a situation where someone has clearly and without question performed a misdeed for which they are being held culpable. This isn't an analytical and logical breakdown of suspicion or proof or evidence; it's an attack. An attack fueled by personal vendettas and supported by nothing more than spurious reasoning and baseless accusations. I find myself looking at posts made by people who I generally feel have the right idea and hating their tactics, these filthy methods that pervert the honest ideals these same individuals proclaim themselves as holding. So it's all about honest analysis and weighing the facts and making an informed and unbiased judgement based on the realities of a situation... right up until there's a chance to gang rape a guy who isn't widely admired.

I think Ed's a liar, a thief, a conman and generally a pile of gently steaming crap pretending to have the same intrinsic value as an actual human being BUT I won't lie to convince someone else of my viewpoint. I won't twist facts, I won't omit information, I won't turn inane assumptions into accusations and I won't mistake personal animosity for proof. Scum needs to be shown to people as the slimey dirty thing it is... and ONLY the slimey dirty things it ACTUALLY is. People need to be comdemned for what they have actually done wrong, held culpable for things they are actually guilty of. Not just anything they can be beaten into not refuting.

Some people I respect have behaved in a way that I do not. If you think that statement applies to you, then it probably does.



That sums it up.
The fabricators of this mess are quite possibly the same ones from the
destroy stephenson thread.
clearly a plan of attack carried out with much skill to twist the truth any way they feel like doing.
in the stephenson thread he was branded guilty and he never got the geckos! no refund or lone surviving gecko back from the seller totally zero for just missing the delivery guy once! same players!
And the saneness of it all of it all, in the name of truth and justice!
no names mentioned but look at the similar negative posters
The boi used in its worst as a device used to destroy.
this is what it has come to webby time to hit the delete boi button.
its out of control.
as I see it.
 
bud mierkey said:
That sums it up.
The fabricators of this mess are quite possibly the same ones from the
destroy stephenson thread.
clearly a plan of attack carried out with much skill to twist the truth any way they feel like doing.
in the stephenson thread he was branded guilty and he never got the geckos! no refund or lone surviving gecko back from the seller totally zero for just missing the delivery guy once! same players!
And the saneness of it all of it all, in the name of truth and justice!
no names mentioned but look at the similar negative posters
The boi used in its worst as a device used to destroy.
this is what it has come to webby time to hit the delete boi button.
its out of control.
as I see it.

Once again, I refer you to numbers 4, 7, and 8 of post #139.

Bud, how can you justify what Bruce did? He did not miss the delivery guy. He refused to get up to accept the delivery and then refused to drive to the hub to get them in a timely fashion. It is unacceptable to not open the door when a package arrives when you know it is live animals.

He screwed up, cost some geckos their lives, and deserves NO compensation.
Bruce was in the WRONG.

Ed can't come forward to answer a simple question about where the animals he traded came from. His silence makes me think he is trying to avoid the fact that he misrepresented imports to get the animals he wanted from Emily.

And you.......go sit on your lightsaber. You live in a fantasy world and are not helping anyone with your idiotic posts.

Face it Bud...............2 of your friends SCREWED up and you are not helping them with your posts.
 
Cat_72 said:
No Deb, I never said anything about the fact that they had the parasites proving ANYTHING, did I? It had already been established waaaayyyyy before that post that Ed didn't know what snakes he sent her, and whether they were CBB as he had sold them as or CH.

The only difference between when that post was made and now is that Emily has proven other snakes that did not come from Ed are free of parasites, and that he still hasn't bothered to answer any of the questions asked of him.

THAT is why I think "naming names" was important then, and now.

You concluded differently & much sooner than I.
 
bud mierkey said:
That sums it up.

You know Bud... if I thought you were fluent in English and actually understood anything I had posted, it might worry me to find you agreeing with it. Luckily you only speak Mongrel Idiot and couldn't understand a word of it.
 
bud mierkey said:
That sums it up.
The fabricators of this mess are quite possibly the same ones from the
destroy stephenson thread.
clearly a plan of attack carried out with much skill to twist the truth any way they feel like doing.
in the stephenson thread he was branded guilty and he never got the geckos! no refund or lone surviving gecko back from the seller totally zero for just missing the delivery guy once! same players!
And the saneness of it all of it all, in the name of truth and justice!
no names mentioned but look at the similar negative posters
The boi used in its worst as a device used to destroy.
this is what it has come to webby time to hit the delete boi button.
its out of control.
as I see it.
Wow. Whether they are pro, con or neither for Ed Clark this isn't some unjustified witch hunt. You act like they have to invent things out of the blue to post negative things about Ed Clark.

But some sun glasses. I think the glare from your light saber is affecting your eyes and your judgement. Hopefully there isn't any second hand effects that may get passed on to those reading your posts.
 
Seamus,

You are correct. Emily did initiate the matter with the conclusion they came from Ed. She has since learned and accepted that they may not have came from Ed and just wants some co-operation.

Emily is new to all of this and just learned an important lesson about both parasites and proper etiquette on how to handle situations like this in the future. As I said before, I believe her intentions here were not to hurt anyone, but to help people.

Ed on the other hand is not new to all of this. There is no excuse what so ever for they way Ed has handled this situation. And I am just talking about doing the right thing..... fellow herper to fellow herper. Why would you NOT do some spot fecals and go through your records and work with someone who contacted you about an issue like this? For me personally I just cant even comprehend that.

Has this hobby, to many, really became so much about money, blame, reputation and ego that the well being of the animals involved has stopped being priority one?
 
Seamus Haley said:
This has turned into something beyond reprehensible.

Conclusions are being drawn with insufficient evidence to support them, accusations are being looked at as if there were no alternatives andthere's a definite lynch mob kind of feeling to the entire thing.

I don't like Ed. I actively dislike Ed for a number of reasons. That said, as far as this situation goes he's being stomped on without justification.

Ten months after animals leave his posession they're found to have a parasite load and the current owner has the audacity, the sheer gall to decide without question or hesitancy that it's the fault of the dealer. More than three hundred days in her care and the idea that the issue was accidently introduced on her end doesn't even seem to enter into her head. It's an absurdity.

The thread is created anyway. Conclusions are pulled directly out of the collective asses of some people who would like to see Ed fail and apparantly do not care by what method that happens. No matter that condemning him includes writing tirades that go against all common sense and ignoring biological fact because it's inconveniently counter to their goal. Furthermore, after wandering into the Fauna chat on Parasite Gate: Day One and getting to see a few lines of what were clearly a calculated planning session outlining a strategy of attack- I'm personally convinced that Emily was strongly influenced by parties with an agenda into making her post.

A few people wander by, notice that there's some highly inaccurate garbage being thrown around about parasite transmission and impartially correct those pieces of misinformation.

Denied that line of attack, Ed's most rabid attackers decide that the prescence of parasites ten months after a sale is apparantly a conclusive piece of information that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he misrepresented wild caught or captive hatched animals as captive bred. A leap Evil Kneival couldn't make if he had NASA backing him with new rocket cycle designs.

Now we have more than one person who's refferencing the email correspondance from Post Eleven of this thread and claiming that Ed's response was damning. Look back at that post, read the text of the email that was supposedly sent to Ed, then read his supposed response. Ed's response is clearly, without question, a response to a question asking if the animals sent were CB or not. A question that is never asked in the email that he was alledgedly responding to. It's a broken email chain, something is clearly missing and it's omission constitutes a blatant, bold faced LIE on the part of Emily or whoever is coaching her in her responses. "I sent this" "This was his response" when the response makes absolutely no sense in relation to the email he was supposedly responding to. Ed's response reads a lot more like it was issued as a reply to an email asking if the snakes in that sale were CB, CH or WC and, not remembering the specific sale, he replies that he'll need to check his records. Where in any of that is there guilt of wrongdoing?

Where in ANY of this is there wrongdoing?

Ed sent some snakes, the buyer was happy for ten months and then finds a parasite load. They send him an email, according to their timeline, the first one on the subject, that contains unfounded accusations and has an ultimatum as it's closing line. His response was short and unhelpful but the approach was agressive and combative. No wrongdoing.

He may have sent animals that contained a parasite load so minor and difficult to detect that the new owner wasn't aware of it for nearly a year. No wrongdoing.

This thread is created and immediately explodes with contributions from people who, like myself, don't like Ed. Anyone know for a fact how long the thread was when he first saw it or was informed that it existed? I have no idea myself but it looks possible based on the time frame between the first fifty odd posts that it was pages and pages long. The bulk of that being made up of what I can only call abusive judgement founded in erronious reasoning. What could he have possibly said at that point that would have explained *anything*? What could he possibly say now? It's clear that nothing but an admission of guilt will be accepted by some of his detractors, there are many, many people who have clearly made up their minds and won't even attempt any kind of impartiality if asked to weigh evidence that might exhonerate him.

And that isn't sitting well with me. This is not a situation where someone has clearly and without question performed a misdeed for which they are being held culpable. This isn't an analytical and logical breakdown of suspicion or proof or evidence; it's an attack. An attack fueled by personal vendettas and supported by nothing more than spurious reasoning and baseless accusations. I find myself looking at posts made by people who I generally feel have the right idea and hating their tactics, these filthy methods that pervert the honest ideals these same individuals proclaim themselves as holding. So it's all about honest analysis and weighing the facts and making an informed and unbiased judgement based on the realities of a situation... right up until there's a chance to gang rape a guy who isn't widely admired.

I think Ed's a liar, a thief, a conman and generally a pile of gently steaming crap pretending to have the same intrinsic value as an actual human being BUT I won't lie to convince someone else of my viewpoint. I won't twist facts, I won't omit information, I won't turn inane assumptions into accusations and I won't mistake personal animosity for proof. Scum needs to be shown to people as the slimey dirty thing it is... and ONLY the slimey dirty things it ACTUALLY is. People need to be comdemned for what they have actually done wrong, held culpable for things they are actually guilty of. Not just anything they can be beaten into not refuting.

Some people I respect have behaved in a way that I do not. If you think that statement applies to you, then it probably does.

Well said, Seamus. I just find it hard to understand why Ed has not come forward with the records of the origins of those snakes and his "regular random fecals."

Ed has always been nice to me, and I figure this is simply a smear campaign, orchestrated by more than just the OP.

For whatever reason, Ed has chosen to ignore this thread, and that's what I find odd. It could be for many different reasons, not all of them dishonest.

I am not ready to declare him guilty and join the lynch mob, either, but it does leave a question in my mind.
 
Why do some people here think Emily has nothing better to do in life then make up a thread to attack Ed ? Whats the motive ? Why subject yourself to counter attacks ? Shes never asked for anything from the start. Why on earth would you want all this attention ? unless she did what she thinks is the right thing to do. Simply post her experiance on the BOI . I think she has all the rights in the world to do what she did . Seems only the "friends" of Ed are condemming her . I guess it's just easier to try to deflect .
 
Jbreddawg said:
Why do some people here think Emily has nothing better to do in life then make up a thread to attack Ed ? Whats the motive ? Why subject yourself to counter attacks ? Shes never asked for anything from the start.

Simple. A lot of people here don't like Ed Clark, and would seize any opportunity to stomp on him.
 
shrap said:
Ed on the other hand is not new to all of this. There is no excuse what so ever for they way Ed has handled this situation. And I am just talking about doing the right thing..... fellow herper to fellow herper. Why would you NOT do some spot fecals and go through your records and work with someone who contacted you about an issue like this? For me personally I just cant even comprehend that.

That's what irks me the most right there. Complete denial is all I've seen come from him on the matter so far. And to quote Seamus.."That ain't sitting well with me." At least Emily was open minded enough to go have her other animals tested. The ones that didn't come from Ed. Ed won't even let her know if he gave her the right animals, let alone go have some tests done to ensure the safety of his collection.

Just no excuse for that kind of behavior.

shrap said:
Has this hobby, to many, really became so much about money, blame, reputation and ego that the well being of the animals involved has stopped being priority one?

Shameful, but in too many cases, the answer is yes. :rolleyes: The almighty buck can even buy you extra powers if you need them. :thumbsup:
 
shrap said:
Right and wrong has nothing to do with whether you like someone or not, Jim.

I dont like Ed, but I was sure to come to his defense here just 3 weeks ago: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103493

Why? Because John was wrong. It had nothing to do with like or dislike.

In a perfect world, Sammy. I believe those are your standards, as they are mine.

But we both know that is not always the case on the BOI.
 
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