Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If one looks strictly at this incident and Emily's posts and removes the Ed part of the equation, it's not the kind of situation which many dealers would want to find themselves in.

I couldn't agree more. Admittingly, it is difficult to maintain an objective perspective of this situation in light of the recent shady dealings people have had with Ed Clark. However, there is no proof the parasites originated while the snakes were in Mr. Clark's possession and since he cannot prove they didn't, the point is moot. Too much time has passed between the acquisition of the snakes and the discovery of the parasites.

I am deeply concerned for the health of the snakes, and for the lack of professional ethics on the part of Mr. Clark. It is truly an unfortunate situation, and one that deserves a lesson gleaned from the experience. I am a strong proponent of quarantine and having fecal exams done on ANY newly acquired animal... regardless of the source.

Having been on both ends of the stick, I can sympathize. I have received geckos with parasite loads from other breeders, and fortunately obtained fecal tests immediately which took care of the animal's health before it could become problematic. Also, few years ago, a customer posted on a public forum that I had sold him a gecko that was infected with pinworms without having the courtesy to inform me first. He did have a fecal test performed within a couple of weeks of receiving the animal, which I recommend for all my customers. After a long conflict involving my vet and his, it turned out that the pinworms were actually from the cricket feeders and not infecting the gecko at all. The point was, that I got involved and suspended all gecko sales until the problem was resolved, which I feel was my responsibility as a breeder... something it appears Mr. Clark lacks.

Now, had it been nearly a year before the parasites had been discovered, would I would have handled the situation differently? Yes! Although I would have offered my help for the sake of the gecko's health and to educate the buyer, since I have no guarantee of how the gecko was being housed and cared for in that amount of time the responsibility would lie on the shoulders of the buyer.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Wilomn]

That's just the thing Marcia, Emily NEVER asked for anything from mr. clark.

ALL she wanted was to inform him so he could let other customers of his know.

Then HE started with the lies and evading.

If someone came to you a year later and said that they just wanted to give you a heads up but wanted no recompense in anyway, would you treat that person the way mr. clark treated Emily? I rather doubt it. My guess is you'd be thankful for the update, helpful in your advice, HONEST in your dealings with her and that you would then have done some spot checking and further having no problems posting the results of those spot checks.

Of course, you wouldn't rip someone off by giving them wildcaught, perhaps captive hatched, animals instead of captive born and bred future breeders from your own, "won't find cleaner out there," stock.

That's the thing that I, and apparently a few others, think mr. clark did. That's the crux of this issue.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Since most of us buy from "someone else" it does concern me to understand more fully what standards are the norm, what standards to expect from others when considering a purchase and what standards one should be meeting at some future date if you intend to sell or trade snakes to others. I never consider learning as "worrying".

I mis-took your post to mean that you didn't think that all folks will do the same procedures... and that that should somehow impact you. I'll bet you people's quarentine methods will vari.

So I meant my reply to address the inconsistencies you are likely to encounter. That your best bet is to quarentine, have fecals done on all animals & do random tests on your collection. I apologize if I sounded dismissive to your concerns it wasn't my intent.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I mis-took your post to mean that you didn't think that all folks will do the same procedures... and that that should somehow impact you. I'll bet you people's quarentine methods will vari.

That's an understatement. I've been surprised by some past posts that I have read.

A)different location
B)different room
c)across the room
D)different rack
E)different tub

 

[Dennis Hultman]

That's an understatement. I've been surprised by some past posts that I have read.

A)different location
B)different room
c)across the room
D)different rack
E)different tub

E)different tub same rack.

 

[shrap]

That's just the thing Marcia, Emily NEVER asked for anything from mr. clark.

ALL she wanted was to inform him so he could let other customers of his know.

Then HE started with the lies and evading.

If someone came to you a year later and said that they just wanted to give you a heads up but wanted no recompense in anyway, would you treat that person the way mr. clark treated Emily? I rather doubt it. My guess is you'd be thankful for the update, helpful in your advice, HONEST in your dealings with her and that you would then have done some spot checking and further having no problems posting the results of those spot checks.

Of course, you wouldn't rip someone off by giving them wildcaught, perhaps captive hatched, animals instead of captive born and bred future breeders from your own, "won't find cleaner out there," stock.

That's the thing that I, and apparently a few others, think mr. clark did. That's the crux of this issue.

Thank you, Wes. You saved me some typing.

 

[Wraith]

That's well and good Randal but doesn't address what I asked. A yearly fecal would quite possibly miss a number of snakes bought and sold within that year. I would very likely miss hatchlings/juveniles hatched and sold during any given 12 month period. Even in Emily's case if she did that, it wouldn't have picked up on these three snakes as she hasn't had them in her collection for a full calendar year yet (that of course being dependent on the dates she would have booked her yearly fecals for). Yearly fecals are quite likely a good idea for a core breeding group but otherwise, well I just don't see how it's going to address this particular situation.

if a breeder is feeding live food, they really should test the snakes before selling them off. It's possible snakes can become contaminated from F/T food, but not as easily as from live food. Also, if feeding live food.. best to have the rodent colonies checked twice a year.

Assuming the snakes were clean at the time received, pinworms (strongyloids) and tapeworm eggs can show up in a fecal check within a month's time of having the snake if the contamination was coming from the food source and not really the snake itself. I know this from experience. I received a snake that tested positive for pinworm and tapeworm eggs within the first month of having it. This snake was a problem feeder and I had been buying live mice locally to feed it (I avoid live food whenever I possibly can). Instead of warning people to watch out about buying from the person who I got the snake from, I decided to test my food source first. After testing the mice themselves, there was an exact match. Can you imagine how much grief was avoided in doing that?

Coccidia now is a different matter. It is something that an animal can potentially have for years and never show any concrete signs of having it - therefore they usually test false negative. It's not until there is some type of stress on the immune system that triggers it into action. I have had animals like this.. in one case, the animal (originally wild caught) has been in captivity for many years and old age seems to have been the trigger.

 

[XDeus]

That's an understatement. I've been surprised by some past posts that I have read.

A)different location
B)different room
c)across the room
D)different rack
E)different tub

You forgot one...

F) different hide

 

[ravensgait]

I think we all understand that Emily didn't ask for any compensation from Ed.. But!
My problem with the situation is how she came out guns blazing said in no uncertain terms that the parasites came from Ed ETC ETC. She didn't give him any time to respond after first contacting him before she posted about this problem. She didn't know much about parasites and instead of trying to get the information she needed she started the Blame game and Ed was the target. If it were me my advice to her would have been get them to a vet and tested then treat them for whatever they have.. I'd bet that she wouldn't have been happy with that advice either and here we'd be..


Now add in those that already disliked Ed and those that just like kicking someone else when they are down and bang Ed is tried and convicted over something that if it had the name Wes, Sammy or Bob attached to it instead of Ed's!! Well the OP in that case would have been as Seamus said nailed down as a easy target. Now In Wes's case and maybe in Sammy's and Bob's there would have been a few enemies who would have leveled a shot or two but the rest of us would have crucified the OP and likely put a quick end to it. Well if nothing else Ed this should show you what happens when you go out of your way to piss people off. It does come back to haunt you!!!

Like Seamus said I THINK Ed has some guilt in this situation but I don't know it!! and yes it does bother me seeing the Nay sayers here many of whom I respect, hanging someone with no evidence none at all. Might want to give that some thought in case the shoe is ever on your foot and your taking a hammering, Those of us interested in just the truth will dig for it but there will be those you've pissed off or who just like getting in that kick, taking shots at you. Yeah I don't much care for Ed either but don't look for me to fetch a rope or hold a torch for the lynch mob and I'm glad to see I'm not alone in feeling that way.... Randy

 

[Griz]

I think we all understand that Emily didn't ask for any compensation from Ed.. But!
My problem with the situation is how she came out guns blazing said in no uncertain terms that the parasites came from Ed ETC ETC. She didn't give him any time to respond after first contacting him before she posted about this problem. She didn't know much about parasites and instead of trying to get the information she needed she started the Blame game and Ed was the target. If it were me my advice to her would have been get them to a vet and tested then treat them for whatever they have.. I'd bet that she wouldn't have been happy with that advice either and here we'd be..

Baahhhh.... Randy, she did take them to a vet. She went off solely what he told her. Who are you going to trust more? Yourself or the vet? If my vet had told me the same thing then I am sure I would have responded similarly. And, Ed was given ample time to respond. He is typically the first one online to bash someone or to place an ad in someone's classifieds so one would think responding to a simple email would not have taken several days. It certainly would not have for you or 99% of the other good guys.

Now add in those that already disliked Ed and those that just like kicking someone else when they are down and bang Ed is tried and convicted over something that if it had the name Wes, Sammy or Bob attached to it instead of Ed's!! Well the OP in that case would have been as Seamus said nailed down as a easy target. Now In Wes's case and maybe in Sammy's and Bob's there would have been a few enemies who would have leveled a shot or two but the rest of us would have crucified the OP and likely put a quick end to it. Well if nothing else Ed this should show you what happens when you go out of your way to piss people off. It does come back to haunt you!!!

Integrity Randy. Those of us that have it are given more leeway. Call it a perk of being honest.

Like Seamus said I THINK Ed has some guilt in this situation but I don't know it!! and yes it does bother me seeing the Nay sayers here many of whom I respect, hanging someone with no evidence none at all. Might want to give that some thought in case the shoe is ever on your foot and your taking a hammering, Those of us interested in just the truth will dig for it but there will be those you've pissed off or who just like getting in that kick, taking shots at you. Yeah I don't much care for Ed either but don't look for me to fetch a rope or hold a torch for the lynch mob and I'm glad to see I'm not alone in feeling that way.... Randy

Again, not quite sure how much more plain I can say this but......THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT PARASITES! IT'S NOT ABOUT HANGING ED! IT'S ABOUT SHOWING A PATTERN OF LESS THAN STELLAR BEHAVIOR THAT SHOULD MAKE ANYONE AND EVERYONE WARY OF ED CLARK!

It's funny, Ed PM'd me awhile back asking to bury the hatchet and to call a truce. I pm'd him right back and told him that would be a waste of time. Why? To issue a truce would imply that I was at war with him or worst yet....that I cared. Truth be known, I don't care about Ed but I do care about his victims. The people who are trying to make a small living in this hobby who end up getting taken by him. Emily may not be in that group but her thread has showcase, yet again, what type of guy Ed Clark is. And for that she gets green from me!

Griz

 

[shrap]

Randy,

Parasites can happen to any of us regardless of how well we maintain our critters. So most of us are not trying to lynch Ed over parasites or place blame or guilt on him over parasites. That fact has been stated, by many, over and over but somehow you do not seem to be able to comprehend that.

The problem most of us have is Ed's total lack of cooperation. There is no excuse what so ever for the way Ed has handled this situation. And I am just talking about doing the right thing fellow herper to fellow herper. Why would you NOT do some spot fecals and go through your records and work with someone who contacted you about an issue like this? Personally, I cant comprehend not working with the person.

And let me make one other thing perfectly clear for you. Who someone is has no bearing on right and wrong. It would not matter to me if this was Ed or Wes. I would still have the same stance on the matter. My values, my sense of right and wrong, do not vary based on who someone is.

 

[Wilomn]

I'm with Sammy and Bob on this one Randy. I have no personal feelings for mr. clark that amount to enough to make me go gunning for him.

HE simply put on the bad guy shoes and went for a looooooooooooooooooong walk.

Emily went by what her Vet told her. She did not see a mass of worms and go directly to mr. clark. She waited, I think, a couple of days after he said he would get back to her, which he did NOT do, and THEN she came here.

Now, given the evidence of past behaviour and total lack of involvment in PUBLIC on this thread, as he did try to stab her in the back in a forum she had NO access to, I am SURE, just me going by what I see and feel, that he is guilty of ripping her off, lying to her and then trying to make it look like it was all her fault.

Had ANYONE behaved in the past as mr. clark has and then proceeded to handle the situation as mr. clark did, I don't see how I, personally, could have come to any other conclusion than the one I did. He's a lying scumbag theif.

The fact that he and I have had some "time in the ring" so to speak, has nothing to do with this. It's just his bad luck that he had to lose there as well as here.

 

[ravensgait]

Well hell I wrote a out a longer response and clicked the wrong button oh well.

Anyway to say this isn't about Parasites is well bullshit.. The little critters are in the title of the thread and they are what got us all here talking about Ed so yeah it's about Parasites. Take that how ever you wish..

I don't see Ed as a Bad guy the way you folks seem too.. I see people like Chris Johnson and his ilk as Bad Guys and Ed isn't a Chris Johnson. He's more like Bill Leverton though Bill did Far worse. I don't see Ed as a good guy either he is more in that grey area where you watch carefully to see which way he's going.

Sammy I think you remember my opinion on that. I will say this, if this thread were about you Sammy, I know that I would have to see some real hard facts of your wrong doing before I'd hang the label "Bad Guy" on you.. Randy

 

[shrap]

Anyway to say this isn't about Parasites is well bullshit.. The little critters are in the title of the thread and they are what got us all here talking about Ed so yeah it's about Parasites. Take that how ever you wish..

It's not about the parasites to me, Randy. Period. You are obviously incapable of seeing any deeper than your own reflection so I am not going to waste my time explaining it again. Take that how ever you wish...

Sammy I think you remember my opinion on that.

I have no clue what you are talking about, Randy.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

For me, my opinion on this has nothing to do with it involving Ed. I would feel the same and would have drawn the same conclusion whether it had been Ed Clark or someone like the Sutherlands, Ralph Davis, or some random newbie breeder like myself.

 

[Cat_72]

Anyway to say this isn't about Parasites is well bullshit.. The little critters are in the title of the thread and they are what got us all here talking about Ed so yeah it's about Parasites.

Randy, I'm not sure why you just can't seem to fathom what folks are saying, and it was kind of uncalled for to be calling it "BS". Just because that's all the deeper you can see doesn't mean there isn't something just a wee bit deeper.

Sure, it says, "parasites" in the title of the thread, but it could have been any of a number of things, and I would still feel the same way about Ed's customer service and integrity(or lack thereof). I think everyone here has agreed that there is no way to positively prove where any of those parasites came from, therefore it comes down to Ed's unwillingness to even correspond with Emily, more less address the issues here on Fauna (other than one lowdown dirty underhanded cowardly post on the mods forum). In other words, HOW HE HANDLED THE SITUATION SUCKS. I don't know how much clearer one can state it.

Ed may not be a "bad guy" in the sense of Chris Johnson, but between his lack of care in addressing this issue, his underhanded method of trying to make Emily out as the "bad guy" and his other questionable past behaviors, I certainly don't think he qualifies as a "good guy".

 

[KelliH]

Well hell I wrote a out a longer response and clicked the wrong button oh well.

Anyway to say this isn't about Parasites is well blankety blank.. The little critters are in the title of the thread and they are what got us all here talking about Ed so yeah it's about Parasites. Take that how ever you wish..

I don't see Ed as a Bad guy the way you folks seem too.. I see people like Chris Johnson and his ilk as Bad Guys and Ed isn't a Chris Johnson. He's more like Bill Leverton though Bill did Far worse. I don't see Ed as a good guy either he is more in that grey area where you watch carefully to see which way he's going.

Sammy I think you remember my opinion on that. I will say this, if this thread were about you Sammy, I know that I would have to see some real hard facts of your wrong doing before I'd hang the label "Bad Guy" on you.. Randy

I know what you mean Randy, and agree with you.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Would it have been any better to title it, "Yet another questionable transaction with Ed Clark" ? The center of the thread would amount to the same thing. The snakes she received from Ed have parasites. Hers don't.

IMO it is about Ed and yet ANOTHER questionable transaction. Emily can't prove they came from Ed, granted. But Ed offers nothing in his defense either, except the statement of total denial on page one. Ed has been tight roping the fence for far too long IMO. Way too many shady transactions and displays of dishonest character. It is time for him to choose which side of that fence he wishes to be on.

 

[cookreptiles]

This thread was started because of parasites and because of Ed's unresponsiveness to my private messages. Yes, my finding parasites in snakes that came from him began this whole ordeal. However, this is about FAR more than just parasites. This is about whether I received the CBB holdback females I was supposed to, or whether Ed actually sent me CH imports. It is about Ed's total lack of communication and willingness to address to either of these issues. It is about Ed posting about me in a forum that I do not have access to and calling me a liar and who knows what else. It is about Ed's all-around poor handling of this entire situation. It is an attempt by me to let others know of my experience with Ed.

I had a bad experience with Ed Clark--should I not post that here? No, I can never provide 100% proof positive that the snakes I received from Ed had parasites when I received then. No, I cannot provide absolute proof that Ed sent me CH imports instead of CBB holdbacks that he produced himself. However, with the proof that I do have, it is my responsibility to warn others so that they will not find themselves in the same situation and so that people that may have already can get their snakes tested.

Ed's unwillingness to provide even one shred of proof or documentation, or to even respond privately or publically with a simple yes or no to any of the questions presented speaks volumes to me, even moreso than any proof that he or I could ever provide, and I can only hope that others might see things in the same light and take heed.

 

[ravensgait]

Emily while I do have doubts that your animals are as you were told they were, there is no way we'll know the truth of that unless Ed get a case of conscience and I wouldn't hold my breath.

I would imagine that the thought that they might be WC or just CB animals popped into your head when you found out they had Parasites. That thought would cross most peoples minds in the situation. I hate to say it but I think you would have gotten father with Ed if you had kept this between the two of you and only brought it public after exhausting that effort. Where most people would respond to a BOI thread about them, Ed has in the past clamed up when people post anything at all negitive about him here. Hope the snakes do well for you..Randy