Chameleon Company
New member
Many of you know me and the business I manage. Those who don’t can click on my website link to learn more. I breed and sell chameleons as a commercial venture. Heika Sample is a customer of mine residing in Oregon who bought six female panther chameleons from me in January 2007. She's the "Heika" that posts in many chameleon forums, one of which she also moderates. We've been unable to resolve some claims originating from her and brought to my attention on July 10th, 2007. As we attempted to resolve matters since, her undocumented claims have become untenable in a different forum discussing these issues, and her stance and actions irresponsible. I have made the decision to post the actions of parties here, in the BOI, as I have no desire to chase her from one obscure forum to another. Moving forward there will not only be a clear record of “Seller Beware” when dealing with this individual, but also an accounting of events and actions taken by parties in a public forum on this issue where input is invited.
Heika has made statements, and taken positions, that are irresponsible and without merit. I have asked her repeatedly to elaborate these charges and claims, as well as provide source data (i.e. vet reports, test results, names and contact info), and have met a brick wall in my efforts. This would include her being contacted by two different veterinarians at my urging requesting her cooperation..
First, a paste of Heika's last version of her complaint from a different forum, which I take issue with:
1) January 2007. Heika purchases 6 panther chameleons, receives them on Jan 30th. All a bit “cold on arrival but OK” (email confirm)
2) 2-02: Heika reports a slight URI in one animal, which she attributes to the cold. She feels she can treat it.
3) 2-05: Heika reports: "This female appears to be recovering nicely. With any luck, she will pull out of this without any problems at all. On another note… all of the chameleons appear to be doing very well. One of the Ambilobes out of Anubis Jr. just completed a shed. No stress colorations, they are eating, drinking, and look well.”
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4) 2-23 Heika: "One female might be a male"; My reply "If so, I'll fix it. LMK", This is more than two weeks after my guarantee expired. I never heard more on it. (Since she now in July claims to have “six females” from me, I guess “he” was really a she all along) !
5) 6-16 (four and 1/2 months after purchase) Heika: One of the females is not doing well ... Not growing and eating poorly etc etc. Any suggestions ? I offer a list of 4-5 avenues to explore as possible causes.
6) 7-10 Heika is having trouble with a gravid female that she bred. She emails me, accuses us of a rumor that she heard we use growth enhancers that produce debilitating effects on our animals, and wants me to be "honest and forthcoming" . Claims the animal suffers from Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD), which the rumor says we cause in our animals by use of the growth hormone or growth-hormone-like substances, and this is now the reason for her female’s problems. (The “growth enhancer” claim is pure BS, btw, and was debunked in another forum. We use no such substances, and it is pure folly to think we would or could) She tells me now that the ill chameleon from 6-16 has died.
7) 7-10 My reply was professional. No such truth to the rumor. I discuss the situation. I ask her to call me, and Heika and I talk on the phone. It’s very civil.
8) 7-11 I volunteer 2 free Nosy Be females to Heika, as I check records and note a problem from another customer on an animal shipped in January, and reported to me then, where the customer (a veterinarian) felt it was not a serious situation. I had sent a replacement for free then (in February), and also let them keep the first animal. I enlist the help of close friend Dr. Ivan Alfonso, who is also our herd veterinarian, to look at Heika’s concerns. We spend considerable time communicating with Heika. Calcium deficiencies are always magnified by egg production, and as there are many causes of MBD and its symptoms, we request the bloodwork on the animal. Bloodwork is vital in an MBD diagnosis, and at the time of this writing, we do not know if any was ever done. More on MBD and “bone density” below. Heika refuses to send us anything, yet claims that it is our fault. Of note is that she had the animal for over 5 months, deemed it healthy to breed, and then ran into problems. Our guarantee is 5-days, not 5 months, FYI, but we have worked with many customers beyond our 5 day obligation.
9) 7-13 & 14 OK, according to Heika, the problem with this animal may not be MBD traced back to our "growth hormones". Its now filarial worms, as they cut the animal open to remove the eggs, and found it loaded with “filarial worms” in its gut. While not uncommon in WC animals, there is no known transmission of filarials specific to chameleons here in the U.S. They are not only almost exclusively host-species specific by type of filarial worm (two are known to affect chameleons), they are mosquito specific as well as the vector of transmission. It takes a specific species of mosquito depending on the type of filarial to transmit it between animals. Heartworms in dogs are a type of filarial worm. They are also not known to reside in the gut as described, or in the quantities described. This is an unheard of diagnosis in CBB animals, and would rate as the stuff of scientific case-studies and published articles that make careers. While it seems that everything about her description is wrong, and her vet does not know reptiles (her words), we obtain opinions from several other vets on our end about the possibilities (all say something not right), and ask Heika to put us in contact with her vet. We line up a Board Certified Clinical Pathologist to do the case study with available research funds if we can confirm all, as it would be that big of a deal. But the evidence trail has to be kept intact, fully documented, and be open to all scrutiny, lest someone just grab a filarial from a WC animal and say “here it is“. Heika refuses to pass on any info. Multiple refusals. No data or info period. Of big note here should be that Heika claimed in the forum that there were hundreds of the worms in the chameleon and that she has a jar full of them in the fridge. She refused to even provide pics of the worms.
Littered throughout as things progressed was an escalation of rudeness and childishness as others began posting in forums, and forum dynamics emerged. It was not so initially, and I raise it because Heika’s emails to me now say “I came to you for help and was treated rudely and insulted”. That is not only not supported by the actual dialogue and communications, but IMMHO, when it did occur in forum, Heika began it by insulting Dr. Alfonso when, in eventually refusing his help, she felt a need in referring to him as biased and a poor chameleon keeper. Of note is that Dr. Alfonso had helped Heika in times past (2006) with other medical issues regarding chameleons from other sources, and she had extended her gratitude in-forum to Dr. Alfonso at that time. In the end, another acquaintance did make a very uncalled for characterization, but by that time Heika had insulted everybody remotely related to me. I am also not sure what she expects when she belittles people in forums .... a "Yes Ma’am"? Throughout it all, I was never malicious, or insulting, IMMHO, and I also see it as immaterial to Heika and me and her animals and the issues here.
I have pleaded with Heika to cooperate with the medical information. I have told her that her inaccurate accusations needed redress, and she refused. I told her that I would post in an appropriate forum (here) that would generate a public record to contrast her irresponsible accusations.
There are many characterizations in emails, posts elsewhere (many deleted now but which we have full copies of) besides what I have posted above. Heika's characterizations about how she was treated are grossly inaccurate. Her characterizations of her actions are grossly generous. Her characterizations about how my company takes care of customers is not true. Heika, I can only work with what you tell me when you tell me. What I have are undocumented accusations five months unsupported.
Again, Heika's words from above, now in a better light:
1- Heika herself called it "bone density" in her very first post in her filarial worm thread in another forum; and
2- How else can we call it when the condition she claims (MBD) was diagnosed ONLY with X-rays? What does an X-ray determine? Bone Density !!!
I am not sure how easy you thought success would be with panther chameleons Heika. All my animals are not perfect. Despite all the info available, it is my opinion that failure remains the most common teacher. Everyone with any sustained success with chameleons has learned plenty from their certain failures. My history of taking responsibility for my mistakes, when I do not meet my obligations to my customer on the first try, is time-tested. As of now Heika, your history of taking responsibility is to blame others and run from your own accountability and obligations.
Heika, we have been confidantes in the past. There is no doubt you expend enormous effort in various chameleon forums. I made numerous requests of you to fix this via any number of easier and more constructive ways, and was told to pound sand. Next time you ask others for help, consider that you have an obligation to help them to help you.
Heika, your line that says it all :
I can document all of the above, have all the emails and thread posts, etc. I would rather wait to see if anything is in dispute before I do, kind of as a Court Complaint. Otherwise, this thread will be as 50 posts long before the second true post.
To my many customers, as always I thank you for your patronage. To those where I have had problems to fix, I thank you for your helping me to do that when the situation arose.
Heika has made statements, and taken positions, that are irresponsible and without merit. I have asked her repeatedly to elaborate these charges and claims, as well as provide source data (i.e. vet reports, test results, names and contact info), and have met a brick wall in my efforts. This would include her being contacted by two different veterinarians at my urging requesting her cooperation..
First, a paste of Heika's last version of her complaint from a different forum, which I take issue with:
I have many email communications voicing Heika's issues, anger, etc. But since the above was from a public forum, in a now deleted thread, I also felt it best represented, in her own words, what I needed to respond to. My response will first be the dates and timelines of events and communications, briefly summarized. Full supporting emails can be posted if and when necessary. All dates are 2007.
1) January 2007. Heika purchases 6 panther chameleons, receives them on Jan 30th. All a bit “cold on arrival but OK” (email confirm)
2) 2-02: Heika reports a slight URI in one animal, which she attributes to the cold. She feels she can treat it.
3) 2-05: Heika reports: "This female appears to be recovering nicely. With any luck, she will pull out of this without any problems at all. On another note… all of the chameleons appear to be doing very well. One of the Ambilobes out of Anubis Jr. just completed a shed. No stress colorations, they are eating, drinking, and look well.”
.
4) 2-23 Heika: "One female might be a male"; My reply "If so, I'll fix it. LMK", This is more than two weeks after my guarantee expired. I never heard more on it. (Since she now in July claims to have “six females” from me, I guess “he” was really a she all along) !
5) 6-16 (four and 1/2 months after purchase) Heika: One of the females is not doing well ... Not growing and eating poorly etc etc. Any suggestions ? I offer a list of 4-5 avenues to explore as possible causes.
6) 7-10 Heika is having trouble with a gravid female that she bred. She emails me, accuses us of a rumor that she heard we use growth enhancers that produce debilitating effects on our animals, and wants me to be "honest and forthcoming" . Claims the animal suffers from Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD), which the rumor says we cause in our animals by use of the growth hormone or growth-hormone-like substances, and this is now the reason for her female’s problems. (The “growth enhancer” claim is pure BS, btw, and was debunked in another forum. We use no such substances, and it is pure folly to think we would or could) She tells me now that the ill chameleon from 6-16 has died.
7) 7-10 My reply was professional. No such truth to the rumor. I discuss the situation. I ask her to call me, and Heika and I talk on the phone. It’s very civil.
8) 7-11 I volunteer 2 free Nosy Be females to Heika, as I check records and note a problem from another customer on an animal shipped in January, and reported to me then, where the customer (a veterinarian) felt it was not a serious situation. I had sent a replacement for free then (in February), and also let them keep the first animal. I enlist the help of close friend Dr. Ivan Alfonso, who is also our herd veterinarian, to look at Heika’s concerns. We spend considerable time communicating with Heika. Calcium deficiencies are always magnified by egg production, and as there are many causes of MBD and its symptoms, we request the bloodwork on the animal. Bloodwork is vital in an MBD diagnosis, and at the time of this writing, we do not know if any was ever done. More on MBD and “bone density” below. Heika refuses to send us anything, yet claims that it is our fault. Of note is that she had the animal for over 5 months, deemed it healthy to breed, and then ran into problems. Our guarantee is 5-days, not 5 months, FYI, but we have worked with many customers beyond our 5 day obligation.
9) 7-13 & 14 OK, according to Heika, the problem with this animal may not be MBD traced back to our "growth hormones". Its now filarial worms, as they cut the animal open to remove the eggs, and found it loaded with “filarial worms” in its gut. While not uncommon in WC animals, there is no known transmission of filarials specific to chameleons here in the U.S. They are not only almost exclusively host-species specific by type of filarial worm (two are known to affect chameleons), they are mosquito specific as well as the vector of transmission. It takes a specific species of mosquito depending on the type of filarial to transmit it between animals. Heartworms in dogs are a type of filarial worm. They are also not known to reside in the gut as described, or in the quantities described. This is an unheard of diagnosis in CBB animals, and would rate as the stuff of scientific case-studies and published articles that make careers. While it seems that everything about her description is wrong, and her vet does not know reptiles (her words), we obtain opinions from several other vets on our end about the possibilities (all say something not right), and ask Heika to put us in contact with her vet. We line up a Board Certified Clinical Pathologist to do the case study with available research funds if we can confirm all, as it would be that big of a deal. But the evidence trail has to be kept intact, fully documented, and be open to all scrutiny, lest someone just grab a filarial from a WC animal and say “here it is“. Heika refuses to pass on any info. Multiple refusals. No data or info period. Of big note here should be that Heika claimed in the forum that there were hundreds of the worms in the chameleon and that she has a jar full of them in the fridge. She refused to even provide pics of the worms.
Littered throughout as things progressed was an escalation of rudeness and childishness as others began posting in forums, and forum dynamics emerged. It was not so initially, and I raise it because Heika’s emails to me now say “I came to you for help and was treated rudely and insulted”. That is not only not supported by the actual dialogue and communications, but IMMHO, when it did occur in forum, Heika began it by insulting Dr. Alfonso when, in eventually refusing his help, she felt a need in referring to him as biased and a poor chameleon keeper. Of note is that Dr. Alfonso had helped Heika in times past (2006) with other medical issues regarding chameleons from other sources, and she had extended her gratitude in-forum to Dr. Alfonso at that time. In the end, another acquaintance did make a very uncalled for characterization, but by that time Heika had insulted everybody remotely related to me. I am also not sure what she expects when she belittles people in forums .... a "Yes Ma’am"? Throughout it all, I was never malicious, or insulting, IMMHO, and I also see it as immaterial to Heika and me and her animals and the issues here.
I have pleaded with Heika to cooperate with the medical information. I have told her that her inaccurate accusations needed redress, and she refused. I told her that I would post in an appropriate forum (here) that would generate a public record to contrast her irresponsible accusations.
There are many characterizations in emails, posts elsewhere (many deleted now but which we have full copies of) besides what I have posted above. Heika's characterizations about how she was treated are grossly inaccurate. Her characterizations of her actions are grossly generous. Her characterizations about how my company takes care of customers is not true. Heika, I can only work with what you tell me when you tell me. What I have are undocumented accusations five months unsupported.
Again, Heika's words from above, now in a better light:
The email exchange was not as described. It was a bit more than a "frank question". Heika played the blame game from the beginning, all based on an absurd rumor. It was not met with hostility, just facts and help.
Heika began with the accusations, insults in emails and forum, etc. I did not accuse her of anything, or call her any names. I can't speak for others who felt slighted by H. Heika, once you post in forums, you invite ridicule when you are the first to spread it. Your "getting to the root of the problem" self-description is hollow.
Nope, I don't think so. You don't tell me of a problem which you attribute to me until the sixth month that you have the animals. At that point, you have had serious issues with two, one of which you had deemed fit to breed, and then ran into problems. You are correct, we do not want to be blamed … we want the data. You refused .... BUT .. we offer two free animals no-strings-attached. Heika did not ask for any compensation, and does later decline, as her uncooperative stance becomes more absurd. How can we offer help, support, or anything you are supposedly asking for, if you don’t provide any information/facts that you claim to have ?
We almost want to make a poster out of this one. Here is the only diagnostic info Heika has referred to in any and all communications about what she decided was “MBD”
So we are to assume that it is wrong calling it "bone density" problems when:
1- Heika herself called it "bone density" in her very first post in her filarial worm thread in another forum; and
2- How else can we call it when the condition she claims (MBD) was diagnosed ONLY with X-rays? What does an X-ray determine? Bone Density !!!
Now you reference problems with six animals, after six months <sigh>, but never provided any evidence to support such a "coincidental" claim. You have described issues with only two chams, yet not substantiated a single claim. You have refused all cooperation. And for the two you have lost, I offered two free female Nosy Be replacements right up front, no evidence required. So, at this point, on your word, I am to believe that all your other chams that are not my pedigree are fine, and the ones I sent are not, now that you‘ve had them for six months. And the first 4-5 months of “all OK” is now to be of no consequence. In all sincerity, looking at your track record in this whole incident, could you please identify the basis of credibility on which I can give any of your claims merit. At 4 ½ months you tell us of one animal with problems. At 5 ½ months your gravid female’s demise is now our fault. Two days later its all six. Not a lick of supporting documentation. The only fact we have is that you are providing no facts.
Then let me explain. I have a covenant with you as a customer to abide by my guarantee, and all other rules of accurate representation and ethics as a seller, both overt and implied. You have the responsibility such that, whatever occurs with your animals, if I am to be “blamed” as you said we “were to blame“, you are obligated to report it to me promptly, and with as much data as anyone could reasonably expect. ESPECIALLY if there are medical issues that you claim have been “dormant” for many months. Do not ask for help, then refuse the help as it does not assist you in your goal of transferring blame based on assumptions. Help is about solutions, and it takes as much information as can be had to figure out what has happened, and what can then be done to help. Six months after the fact is an exceedingly difficult "blame" to substantiate, and yet you expect it to be embraced while you withhold all medical data. 3-4 weeks after you deemed it fit to breed, the animal is doing poorly with the pregnancy, and you now want to assign a six-month-old cause, and yet won’t provide even a sticky-note of documentation. Then we have a first-in-history claim of filarial worms in CBB chameleons in the U.S., and you tell us (email) that asking for documentation and contact info is to question the integrity of you and your vet. Even the most experienced chameleon breeder would be hard-pressed to find any causative agent that could be six-months latent. If you are going to cast the "blame" on the breeder after so much time has elapsed, then you need facts and data, and you need to share them.
I am not sure how easy you thought success would be with panther chameleons Heika. All my animals are not perfect. Despite all the info available, it is my opinion that failure remains the most common teacher. Everyone with any sustained success with chameleons has learned plenty from their certain failures. My history of taking responsibility for my mistakes, when I do not meet my obligations to my customer on the first try, is time-tested. As of now Heika, your history of taking responsibility is to blame others and run from your own accountability and obligations.
Heika, we have been confidantes in the past. There is no doubt you expend enormous effort in various chameleon forums. I made numerous requests of you to fix this via any number of easier and more constructive ways, and was told to pound sand. Next time you ask others for help, consider that you have an obligation to help them to help you.
Heika, your line that says it all :
Of course not. How could it ? Nah.
I can document all of the above, have all the emails and thread posts, etc. I would rather wait to see if anything is in dispute before I do, kind of as a Court Complaint. Otherwise, this thread will be as 50 posts long before the second true post.
To my many customers, as always I thank you for your patronage. To those where I have had problems to fix, I thank you for your helping me to do that when the situation arose.
.
) that I began panicking. That was an expensive day at the vet, as I had several chameleons checked for problems. Considering the findings, that long-ago conversation about ProZyme flashed through my head again. I emailed Jim to ask him about it. Please note, I ask for nothing from him.
