Heika Sample ... Seller Beware

[Heika]

Any good breeding program should be built on the back of healthy, high quality animals that are accurately represented by the seller. I wonder, where do you get that number? Is that an accurate description of the success that people have who have purchased ChamCo animals, or animals from other sources? I wonder if purchasers of animals from Blue Beast, Chameleon Paradise, Chameleons Only, etc. have those kinds of results?


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Obviously, most would welcome more quality questions and quality posts, while a few still favor the personal attacks and other nonsense. You take the good with the bad.
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Yes, obviously people would rather spend their time reading quality postings about chameleons rather than Area 51 and 16 inch members. But, that concept seems to allude a few.


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BTW, the light here is not only "good", but its the real McCoy. I hear it helps folks with a sense of humor too !
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I suppose if the lighting there resembles a bar room, your comment would have generated the response that you expected.. since I suspect it doesn't, I still question your judgement in the first place.

And, just as a reminder of another poorly thought out thread.. how about some of your own advice.. Home Depot is having a special on shovel handle extensions, Jim. Might want to pick one up. (Or two, maybe Ivan needs one?)

Chameleon Company 07-23-2007 01:18 PM

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Heika,

You seem to have an axe to grind, shovel to purchase, etc. etc. Rather than continue things in this vein here, which I believe a few find tedious and unbecoming, might I suggest taking your concerns to the BOI and chop or dig away? I believe it has a reputation more well suited for such exchanges. Otherwise, I would ask Brad to give things a look and snip the snipes as he did before. My hope was to illuminate certain things here. Mission accomplished. Of course, if certain things would rather wallow here, then in the mud they will be !

Heika 07-23-2007 01:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Chameleon Company (Post 33558)
You seem to have an axe to grind, shovel to purchase, etc. etc. Rather than continue things in this vein here, which I believe a few find tedious and unbecoming, might I suggest taking your concerns to the BOI and chop or dig away? I believe it has a reputation more well suited for such exchanges. Otherwise, I would ask Brad to give things a look and snip the snipes as he did before. My hope was to illuminate certain things here. Mission accomplished. Of course, if certain things would rather wallow here, then in the mud they will be !
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Oh, I am sorry, I thought that we were all about open exchange and clearing the air. No, I won't go to the BOI.. I don't like to play in other people's playgrounds. If you have an issue that you feel needs to be addressed there, I would certainly love to respond. There may even be an army that would like to chime in.. there usually is over on the BOI. Yes, you are very good at illuminating certain things on this lovely forum.. as we have seen in the past. Since you seem keen on dropping it, I will.. I feel much more illuminated than before you posted this thread, do you feel better about things, Jim?

And more...

 

[Heika]

Ok, ok.. so I took full opportunity to really snap out some good ones. Jim and company were snapping them right back, though. Also note that not a single time did I ever directly refer to the problems I was having with the chameleons I had purchased from Chameleon Company by name.

Then, Matt Jillson, part owner of the Chameleon Company, chimed in. I am including this version, because the moderator chose to edit out certain vulgar portions of it. I think the folks at Fauna might like to see what finally motivated me to spill the beans, so to speak.

mattjillson Offline Junior Member Posts: 3 Join Date: Dec 2006
Today, 12:55 PM
________________________________________
It seems to me that this scenario is a clear cut case of the have's, the have not's and the wannabe's and the jealousy the last two types on that list feel when they can't raise and keep their animals right. It is good to see in the time off I've taken from Chameleons the only thing that has changed are the names. It certainly appears the only people who have any type of idea what they are talking about that isn't a certified Vet or has run a commercial breeding facility involving Chameleons for years is Chris. Good question btw, enjoyed the read.

Where to start? Low hanging fruit first. Josh, money will never be a substitute for brains. If you can't see the immediate benefit of natural sunlight on your animals from keeping them indoors under UVA/B bulbs, ESPECIALLY during the initial 3-6 months of life, then you have absolutely no idea what you are doing or talking about nor are you raising your animals right. That is case closed, period, you aren't caring for your animals properly if you aren't seeing big differences from what you raise inside from outside. Buying a bunch of animals and calling yourself a breeder is a far cry from buying a bunch of animals, breeding them, hatching the babies and raising those animals up to be breeders and hatching their babies. It sounds to me from a few posts of yours I have read that you are great at regurgitating information that is told to you or that you read off someone else's website, but, let's not confuse you to be a breeder or someone that actually knows from experience what they are talking about. Man is this taking me back to some of the characters from 3-5 years ago.

Next, Heika. Hmmm. Your posts just seems bitter to me for some reason, reminiscent of a Ms. Haveshim, and much like Josh you don't really seem to have too much long term experience to really even be involved in this conversation. If you raise your animals inside and are having MBD problems, I would pretty much be willing to bet if you looked in a mirror you'd see who is responsible for ruining your animals. It seems you are just fishing for details to add to your repertoire of regurgitated husbandry info you got from someone else. I think you forget that Chamco is a commercial venture. This isn't a backyard, or living room operation for kicks. Were you will be gone in 5 years time Chamco will not, so unlike with you a name/reputation and husbandry secrets earned through hard work are important. Why would Jim share any information outside of Husbandry basics with you, especially when it is clear you are a menopausal douche bag? Did the children read that? I guarantee you all those breeders you cited earlier aren't sharing all their bags of tricks with the world and you are naive and/or stupid to think that they are.

At the end of the day, this thread is about Probiotics and the fantasy that in some way they are a type of growth hormone, which in itself if you know the product is laughable. Probiotics have long, long been in use with Reptiles mainly in Boids. Longer than most of you have been beating up and killing your Chameleons and this is with zero detrimental effects. Pretty much guaranteed none of us could brag about a number like that in terms of our success. If anyone can cite any type of scientific document saying different I invite you to post and bash away but it seems to me the opinion of morons don't hold much weight, much like 3-5 years ago, but the success and experience of Chamco says volumes.

-Matt

I think my response was appropriate under the circumstances, and I have no regrets.

Heika 07-23-2007 05:51 PM

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Originally Posted by mattjillson (Post 33565)
Next, Heika. Hmmm. Your posts just seems bitter to me for some reason, reminiscent of a Ms. Haveshim, and much like Josh you don't really seem to have too much long term experience to really even be involved in this conversation. If you raise your animals inside and are having MBD problems, I would pretty much be willing to bet if you looked in a mirror you'd see who is responsible for ruining your animals. It seems you are just fishing for details to add to your repertoire of regurgitated husbandry info you got from someone else. I think you forget that Chamco is a commercial venture. This isn't a backyard, or living room operation for kicks. Were you will be gone in 5 years time Chamco will not, so unlike with you a name/reputation and husbandry secrets earned through hard work are important. Why would Jim share any information outside of Husbandry basics with you, especially when it is clear you are a **** **** ****? Did the children read that? I guarantee you all those breeders you cited earlier aren't sharing all their bags of tricks with the world and you are naive and/or stupid to think that they are.
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Nice to hear from yet another pleasant ChamCo owner. Makes me want to run out and buy a cham from you guys. Oh, wait, I already did. 6, in fact.

Your superior airs are not helping ChamCo at all. I have heard that when the going gets tough for Jim and Ivan, Matt Jillson steps in and gets really unpleasant. I guess we all see that is true now. Maybe this is what Jim meant by mud slinging? Calling in Matt to do the dirty work?

To address my experience. I am not a newbie, but I am not a seasoned chameleon keeper. I suppose if the traverses of time and experience will lead me to be an all around unpleasant, arrogant, and degrading personality like some of the ones displayed in the thread above, I may want to find a new hobby. Since I don't believe that to be the case, I will stick around. I personally don't think that bad language and behavior have much place on a public forum, but this is a fine represention of what the Chameleon Company has to offer, and as such, it is informative for others considering making a purchase.

I have had some problems with "bone density", as one fine owner of your company seems to prefer calling it. Amazingly, although all of my panther and veiled chameleons are housed in identical fashion, the problems have been limited to.. well.. 6 animals. All 6 were purchased from the same company. You can guess which that might be.

When I contacted the company and originally asked if they were actually using ProZyme, I had no idea that my frank question would be met with such hostility. In getting to the root of the problem in 6 females that I am quite fond of, I have been accused of many things, and called a few names, the worst now blanked out by Brad. My hope was to find solutions and explanations for the health issues that I was seeing in a specific group of animals that I own. It seemed to me that the owners of the company simply didn't want to be blamed for the issues. I am more than willing to assess my own husbandry.. I do it daily, as any good keeper should. I am not sure even now if the responsibility lies with me. If it does, it seems coincidental that only 6 particular animals are affected by my husbandry faults.

Matt, I am very, very aware that Chameleon Company is a commercial venture. They sell to those of us who do keep chameleons "just for kicks." Have you forgotten that it really is about the animals? That is what people want.. the pleasure and joy of keeping these reptile gems. They want to keep them to the very best of their abilities, and yes, they turn to the larger keepers with questions about husbandry. I have never understood the secretive nature of this hobby.. why keep secrets? Shouldn't this be a combined effort? The person who owns only one chameleon still has input.. they have a method that is hopefully working for them. Why is that person discounted by a giant like Chameleon Company? Where is the threat?!? Why would Jim, Ivan, or you for that matter, share information beyond basic husbandry? Because your goal should be to help every chameleon keeper succeed. Perhaps I am naive or stupid in thinking that it should be that way.

I have no plans of going anywhere, but I am not sure if I will ever be a successful breeder. If I am, I will continue to share my observations with the chameleon community at large with no restrictions placed, because that is what is best for the chameleons we all strive to keep.

In the end, it is the relationships that need to be preserved.. but it seems that some people just don't get that.

Good luck with your company, Matt, Jim, and Ivan.

The thread was mercifully locked at that point. I was happy to have gotten the last word.. I understand that a few folk were grinding their teeth over that, and I think that is really the true motivation behind this thread. Jim and company can't stand to lose.

I heard grumblings from various people that Jim planned to continue this thread over on Fauna. Then, he sent an email stating his demands.

From: The Chameleon Company
To: Heika
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:45 AM
Subject: One last hope for reason
Heika,
I still have some problems to resolve regarding your situation and your posts. The best solution in my opinion would still include your cooperation, and so I am making this one last appeal.
I realize that you were rightfully upset at the post or posts of Matt Jillson, a 1.3% interest holder in my LLC. You also accused Ivan (2.0%) and I of sending Matt or some such thing. Matt is his own man, not mine or anyone else's puppet. He acted on his own, and gave me no advance notice. As soon as I saw his post, I emailed him and asked him to use the edit function to delete certain slurs, etc. Brad removed the post (I think), moved it, locked it down, and put his own edited version back in. Still not as much as I would like to see edited. Matt did apologize to Brad.
My problems to solve remain. They can be categorized in two areas 1) Our dealings with you as a customer regarding your issues with our chameleons; and 2) your deliberate non-cooperation in providing the medical evidence that supports some very serious claims.
1) Your paragraph from the forum, pasted below but now deleted there, is grossly inaccurate:
When I contacted the company and originally asked if they were actually using ProZyme, I had no idea that my frank question would be met with such hostility. In getting to the root of the problem in 6 females that I am quite fond of, I have been accused of many things, and called a few names, the worst now blanked out by Brad. My hope was to find solutions and explanations for the health issues that I was seeing in a specific group of animals that I own. It seemed to me that the owners of the company simply didn't want to be blamed for the issues. I am more than willing to assess my own husbandry.. I do it daily, as any good keeper should. I am not sure even now if the responsibility lies with me. If it does, it seems coincidental that only 6 particular animals are affected by my husbandry faults.
With full supporting evidence, my rebuttal will include all of your emails about problems that you did, and did not, have with these animals every month that you owned them. You told us you were a happy customer with our animal.
Week 1) An initial URI, which you blamed on the cold shipping, was cleared by you to your satisfaction.
Week 4) When you mentioned a possible sexing mistake, I said I would replace it.
Month 5) One animal growing poorly. Our response was something we are proud of.
Month 6) Problems with a gravid female, the rumor indicating it was our fault, etc. We offer two animals as replacements, almost six months after they had been in your care, and are very proud of that response.
To this point, we would argue that you were treated exceedingly well by us, and that we did more than most anybody would, if not more than anyone would. We have all of your communications, or possibly lack of them if you were not happy, but we can only respond to what you told us. Unfortunately, now the second area of problems arose.
2) Medical documentation.
My hope was to find solutions and explanations for the health issues that I was seeing in a specific group of animals that I own. It seemed to me that the owners of the company simply didn't want to be blamed for the issues
I understand completely your frustrations with the loss of animals. "Been there", I believe you would agree. Its one thing for me to replace an animal regardless of the time-frame. No proof was asked for or attached to my offer to send you two new animals. However, for the claim to remain that it is an MBD condition that could trace back to before you took possession of the animals requires an exact diagnosis of any of the 10 causes of MBD, which is actually about 10 diseases under one big umbrella. You took umbrage, but your continuing claim that there were problems with all, unfair if only because you had sat on that claim for months evidently, requires the hard data. As such, I will have a field day with the above statement, as you refused to share the medical evidence, and yet wanted to cast blame. Within 3 days we go from MBD traced back to me to filarials. An even more serious claim. You describe your vet as "non-reptile", tell us he is sending out the worms, etc. The magnitude of this as a finding would require incredibly meticulous documentation. Its the stuff of case studies. Its also a really bad conclusion to make if false. Dr. Wheelock and I have discussed this at length, as I hoped he could persuade you. He understands the enormity of the claim, and has contacted at least three other vets about it. We have a Board Certified Clinical Pathologist ready to allocate government funds if need be, providing the document trail is foolproof, to do a case study. Its not an attack on integrity, its an absolute need for it in every phase of process, and you confused the two. Your reply was not to any level of cooperation.
Here's the easier solution. You need to post and explain our response so that it matches the facts, basically that our customer service was very responsive, and include the details. It needs to include that you had the animals for over four months before you reported a single issue (you didn't tell me it died until the sixth month, when you told me of the other problem with the gravid female), and my offer to give you two free replacements was made. No one does that. No one. The MBD appears to have been a misunderstanding, but if you feel we have blame there, you are not free of it either. You made accusations, we needed the evidence that any veterinarian would want to see. I had a vested interest in the hard evidence. And lastly, the filarial situation. We need that to close. They either aren't, or if they are, full medical follow through. If you want to call me, and see if we can work out a joint statement that addresses both our issues/concerns, I am all for it.
And the not so nice solution. I have to open a thread, where such threads are appropriate, and rebut all that I need to rebut using your own communications. Those communications have me loaded for bear. I have those of Dr. Wheelock and others as well, showing how we tried to get info I believe many would agree was needed, considering the significance or your claims. Please do not underestimate my resolve to post the truth, aka exact words, of how you presented your complaint an how I handled it. It is the overwhelmingly less preferred option here, but if its the only option you leave me ...... its your choice. I will not post for 24 hours to give you fair time to reply.
Thanks.
Jim Flaherty
863-438-9477
The Chameleon Company, LLC
www.chameleoncompany.com

Now that I see the truth as Jim cared to present it, I understand why I should have been frightened! When my words are cut and pasted without the aid of his own, I certainly look much worse than I am. Also note that in this email, Ivan and Matt become minor holders in the Chameleon Company. That wasn't the case a few emails ago for Ivan when Jim said, "Dr. Ivan Alfonso is my very good friend and herd vet, and a part owner." It does seem to imply that Ivan is a substantial holder in the venture.

I replied to his email with this:

From: Heika
To: The Chameleon Company
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: One last hope for reason
Jim, I have those same emails and am prepared to defend myself.
I have no reason to share my medical documentation with you, and have no plans to do so. I have never asked you to replace animals. I simply asked for information, which you were less than willing to share.
Let me spell this out for you...
I want nothing from you.
You want something from me.
You and friends have been exceedingly rude, condescending, and degrading. I have absolutely no reason to share anything with you. Friends and collegues share information. You are neither.
I don't care if the problem is filiaral worms or ProZyme or both, the problem is there. I don't care if it is the making of a case study. It is my money that pays the vet bill. I will do whatever I want with my documentation, and sharing it with you simply isn't going to happen. I won't release it. My decision is final, and is based upon the fact that I don't need a single thing from you. I am not using the documentation to try and force you to pay back the money I spent or to replace the animals you sold me. The only reason I would have for releasing my vet records is to help you correct issues within your own herd. I have no intention of doing that. You have the resources to test your own animals. If you think the problems I am seeing in the 6 animals I purchased from you are of my own making, then don't test them. I don't care if people think that I am mysteriously lying about the problems I have had with your animals. I believe that anyone can read the emails in question and see that I am not. After all, once again, I made it very clear throughout that I want nothing. What would be the point of making all of this up? I have plenty of drama in my own life without ruining a relationship and creating more.
When Matt posted with information that only you could have given him, the door was opened. You have to take responsibility for your own actions in this, Jim. You pushed and pushed.. and I responded. I told you I didn't like controversy. I avoid it whenever possible. However, that does not mean that I will roll over and play dead. I think you are well aware of that now.
What are you trying to accomplish? You are slaughtering your own reputation. You have been rude, and your friends and co-owners have been rude. Do you think that posting this up on Fauna or somewhere else will somehow correct the customer service errors you have made when dealing with me? This was all so easily preventable. All I ever asked for was information. There is no doubt that the animals are flawed. But, once again, the only thing I ever wanted from you was your assistance. I got this instead.
Good luck in your business and your attempt to do whatever it is you plan to do. I am ready.. are you?
Heika

And, a final email from Jim:

From: The Chameleon Company
To: Heika
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: One last hope for reason
Heika,
I simply asked for information, which you were less than willing to share.
It was not simply, and we asked for information as well. We supplied you with much information. You refused us.
You seem to want to argue who got rude first. Kind of tedious, huh.
I do not want anything from you, and you misunderstand things. I feel you have an obligation to meet based on the charges you have leveled. That you care not to meet it will be judged by others to evaluate in a fuller context.
You have spoken mistruths about me and how I treated you. I have spoken no mistruths about you, nor did Ivan. Was he rude after you insulted him ? Who cares. Matt owns 1 share, just as if you owned some shares in GM. He lives 3000 miles away, and represents me no more than you represent GM. He was out of line, but not at my bidding.
There is no doubt that the animals are flawed.
Not by what your emails said. If they are flawed now, maybe you bear some responsibility ? Do you now a vet who would look at your above logic "Lets see .. the animals are flawed, what does the data say ... I can't see the data ? How am I to concur ?"
All I ever asked for was information.
And you made accusations. And then you insulted us when we requested the data. BS Heika. Complete BS.
I tried.
Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC
www.chameleoncompany.com

It is my opinion that these last two emails were written for the benefit of Fauna. They are quite dramatic.

My rather blunt, frustrated response, the last communication I had with Jim up until this rather nasty addition to the saga:

From: Heika
To: The Chameleon Company
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: One last hope for reason

Bahh.. why do you keep harrassing me, Jim?
Do what you need to do!

And there you have it folks, there is the rest of the story.

I will post a recap of the entire thing, and my current standing on the issue, as soon as my work schedule allows.

Thanks for the patient readers that have made it this far.

 

[Griz]

My stance remains the same Heika with the exception of Matt's comments. Those were uncalled for, period. But, I still see no real fault with Jim and place the vast majority of the problems here onto you. I will reread this saga later today to see if I've missed anything. But, just doing a cursory reading, your postings have done nothing to assist your case.

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Heika,
1) You did not mention my companies name in the filarial thread, nor did anyone ever say that you did. You did tell me that you had identified me as the source of that exact animal to a few of your friends. How many ? Who knows and who cares, as it isn't so much about who knew what when, as word will get around, but rather that you made a serious charge to me and refused anything to confirm it. The filarial diagnosis is extremely far-fetched, as outlined earlier, and quite serious if true.

2) All these emails and threads you want to post. Still no test results. MBD diagnosis by x-ray, if one was even done, is shoddy. Especially in an animal that appeared outwardly well enough to you to choose to breed it. Any competent vet would do blood work.

3) As my original thread starter says, you continue to foment a lie. If you want to believe it, that is certainly your right. To the extent that you have spread it through both forums and sharing of information to others, I will point out to the extent I care to that you have made accusations with no basis in fact, and continue to do so.

4) If you had "kept it all to yourself", we wouldn't be here. You did not.

5) You questioned both my ethics and those of Dr. Alfonso because it fit your blame model. I am very content with the tone of things from that point on. Some will enjoy the humor. Would you have preferred to have been called a "liar" where I chose instead a joke to point out your absurdity?

6) Every iota of MBD allegation that you have made can occur in a rather short period of care, especially in growing chameleons. Poor husbandry doesn't take a month to begin to produce symptoms of it in a young chameleon. You had them for well over five, and "all now have MBD" (your words), and you still expect all to swallow that it traces back six months. The majority of juvenile animals that have advanced as far as visual MBD symptoms can be made well again with 1-2 months of proper husbandry. You looked at them for many months. It begs of data needed.

7) You made serious ethical and medical allegations about my animals and my company, with animals that had been in your care for almost six months. By your own words and demonstrated actions, you told friends, you put it in emails, you posted it in forum. Yes, you need to post the proof, test results, etc. as that is the place that serious consideration to your medical concerns begin. Of course, "rumors" have no test results, do they ? Yes, "Them's the ropes".

Heika, how about trying to refute anything in my first post ? So far, the entire Complaint stands without a ding.

Jim

A post script:

The thread was mercifully locked at that point. I was happy to have gotten the last word.. I understand that a few folk were grinding their teeth over that, and I think that is really the true motivation behind this thread. Jim and company can't stand to lose.

As you know, Brad locked it, then he opened the thread to allow you a reply, and then locked it again. He also told me that he informed you that he might consider allowing me a reply. He made me the offer. I suggested that taking it all down might be the best idea, as it had too many off topic posts, to include every one you made. Remember Heika, "assumptions make and ass out of you and ...." well, just you in the above quote

Ok, ok.. so I took full opportunity to really snap out some good ones. Jim and company were snapping them right back, though. Also note that not a single time did I ever directly refer to the problems I was having with the chameleons I had purchased from Chameleon Company by name.

Yes, you became accusatory and unprofessional in the thread, along with another entity who need not be named (Matt's post was at the end, and I am not referring to him). So you reply in a thread about the growth hormone rumor that there's a "kernal of truth in it, and if we didn't grow chameleons to 16" in five months" but we should note that you didn't refer to us my name with such a foolish statement, just by "YOU". And you continued the falsehoods in later posts. At the end, you did mention all by name, so what are we to notice again?


Jim Flaherty
ChameleonCompany.com

 

[Chameleon Company]

If it got lost in the above maelstrom of emails that provide little if any context of value, posted ad nauseum by Heika, I want to restate the following, if only so she will read it again. I state them as fact, not opinion:

1) I made numerous requests of Heika throught the two-week time frame to please share the results, or give us the contact points to do so. An outside veterinarian, who has good relations with Heika via the internet, also requested on my behalf, at my urging. No luck.

2) I made at least two email requests of Heika to retract her false statements in the other forum. I even suggested she call me, and we would make a joint statement, although it would have to be about the facts. I told her that the BOI was the least preferrred of all my options if I was to do something, but take to heart that doing nothing was not an option. I made this request for a solution other than here at least three times. I will not bore you with the emails, but was told by her that she would do none of the above, and that should I post here, she was ready.

Jim

 

[kmurphy]

Heika?

Here's is a comment you made in your very first post.

Well, I do plan to come here and defend myself.

So far I've seen nothing but copies of emails where Jim, et al, are asking for proof of your claims and you not providing it. How is that defending yourself? These are serious claims and you cannot just make them and not be expected to be called out for it. At this point you need to back them up because the lasting impression of this thread will be that you are lying, and I'm sure you don't want that. Send Ivan all that you have so that this can be resolved.

And I agree with Bob(Griz), I didn't read anything on Jim's or Ivan's part that was other than profession.

 

[Heika]

No need to bore anyone with the emails, Jim. They are all there.

Here is my take on things.

Jim, Ivan and Matt are hardly the appropriate people to assess what those worms actually are. There is a vested interest. Regardless of all the BS in the previous pages, the bottom line is this.. the animals belong to me. The health problems they have are ultimately my responsibility, along with the vet costs and time I spend rehabbing them. The number has now dropped to 4, and they are only a small portion of the total animals I own. My concern is making sure that all the animals in my care are not at risk. I have taken steps to ensure that.

Case studies, replacement animals, ad nauseum. In the end, the decisions are mine to make. Will the actual pedigree of those worms be lost in this battle? No. I will make sure that the information falls into impartial hands if it needs to be passed on. At this point, I haven't received the final diagnosis. When I do, any case study that may result from it will be conducted anonymously.

Does Jim use ProZyme or some other growth enhancing product on his animals, to the detriment of the animals? He says no. Ok, cool. I own many animals.. only a select few have health issues. I ask you, Fauna readers, if I was after something, wouldn't I have accepted the animals offered? I truly do just want what is best for the animals that I own. I made every effort to avoid a public brawl, and in the end, it was unavoidable. Matt Jillson upped the ante when he began posting information that he could have only gotten from Jim or Ivan in a brutal attack on me. Up to that point, it was all banter.

Of course Jim doesn't want anyone to read all the emails. They contain valuable information about how he conducts business. Threats, degrading remarks, insults, sarcasm. And, when he feels like he is losing the battle, he calls in the other owners. Tag team, triple tag team. I am a small time hobbyist and breeder in Oregon. Certainly not a threat to Jim and his megamillionchameleon industry.

The question that remains.. am I a risk to sell to? Over a dozen other individuals don't think so. In the end, I don't think people will have a hard time accepting my money.

The only redeeming quality that this thread has is that now the entire chameleon world will suspect that there may be something wrong with Chameleon Company's chameleons. He chose to bring the battle here.. it was deleted off of that other forum, and would have been forgotten soon enough. Now, there is a record of it forever. I am not the only one that has had very specific bone density problems with Jim's chameleons. I am just the only one who asked him what he was doing to cause it. The whispers are all over the chameleon community. Anyone who has been around for any length of time has heard the stories of jaws snapping, etc. And, no, I won't tell you where I first heard that rumor, Jim.

So, now I will leave you all to pass judgment. I know my footing in the chameleon community. It is solid, and I have solid associates and friends. This is embarrassing, but not the end of the world. And, I can console myself with the fact that this thread actually provides a service to the chameleon community, even if it is at my expense.

I don't plan to post on this thread again. Have fun disecting, discussing, bickering and picking it apart. The entertainment for the day.. may this thread grow in length and popularity, because then the story will have spread just that much further.

Enjoy the hole that you dug, Jim, Ivan and Matt. In the end, Fauna may paint me a criminal of the worst kind.. but those whispers about the health of your animals won't go away. The stain of this thread will remain on your business for a very long time. You can console yourself with the fact that you started the thread both here and on the other forum..

 

[mattjillson]

Like watching a train wreck....

Heika,
It won't be Jim, Ivan or I that are painting you as a criminal; you are doing a great job of that yourself. You make wild accusations, post on public forums and don't back up your claims when asked to do so. Amazing when you get all the emails and bs out for everyone to see nobody is agreeing that you were treated badly as a customer or that you got a raw deal in anyway. And mind you, some of these people are the same people who but heads with Jim on a consistent basis. It was only when you wanted to start bashing and just flatly lying about the demise of your animals and who is responsible that you got a slap across the face from me. And rightfully so. You animals started going south after 4 months of improper care and this is Jim's fault? You go to a vet who really isn't qualified to diagnose MBD - well, at least he isn't using the correct method clearly - then on top of it you aren't willing to supply any of the documentation he provided you. Not even a picture of these so-called worms? Did you even have the worms at any point, or is this just a big made up excuse to point fingers?

I don't know, where I grew up when someone yells draw, you had better have a gun in your holster. My advice is for you to just stop lying, look at yourself hard and the poor choices you have made with your animals and accept responsibility for not doing a good enough job to keep your animals healthy. It's pretty sad. All that time on the boards pretending you're knowledgeable on Chameleons when in reality you make still make the most basic and fundamental mistakes with them. Shocking really that thread posts don't equate to good husbandry practices. Oh well, like I said, in my time off from Chameleons only the names have changed.

-Matt Jillson

 

[kmurphy]

The only redeeming quality that this thread has is that now the entire chameleon world will suspect that there may be something wrong with Chameleon Company's chameleons.

Heika this is what you hope to gain from your posts? You're turning into someone to avoid. I will be very surprised if you'll be on a lot of seller's A list when they see you make claims against a breeder then refuse the back them up.

If you turn over your information to Ivan it is not lost from your possession. If they find differently you still have the option of doing your private thing.

IMO Jim's not the one that has dug a hole and BOI threads don't die.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

We have here three pages of Emails that can be condensed down accurately to the following few statements:

1.) 6 animals were received in January

2.) After six months in the buyers care, she complained of health issues in the animals

3.) The seller was accused of using chemicals to artificially enhance the growth of his animals. In that first accusation, his honesty was called into question before he even answered the question. The accusation was proved false in that the chemical cited would not have that result even if it WAS used.

4.) When asked to provide the documentation to back up her claims, the buyer refused any and all cooperation. She also refused any and all offers of medical help from experts in the field

5.) After stating in early communications that she had no intention of going public with any of the situation, the buyer took every opportunity to post about it in various forums.

I think that pretty well covers it.

Basically we have a lot of wild accusations being made by someone who is firmly convinced she can not possibly be the cause of something going wrong with her collection. Heika asked earlier what her motivation might be since she refused the offer of replacement animals. That is the easiest of all questions to answer. She is seeking to absolve herself of all blame in the situation and assign it to someone else.

Stick a fork in this one...it is way past done.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Its funny how you can post all of those emails, and really, none of them are relevant except for the fact you are not providing the information from your vet, even after jim repeatedly asked you to show it. I mean heck those animals did come from him, and i would think that he cares about his animals as much as any good breeder...so why shouldnt he ask, and WANT to know about what could be wrong with them? Its well within his right to do so.

You showing those vet results, would right there, ALONE, stop all of this. right here, right now. IF you are telling the truth about sick animals in the first place.... Anything can happen in six months time.... Especially to a chameleon.

If you cannot come up with that information, it is well within jims right to post a warning about you and your practices! Youre making SERIOUS accusations with absolutely NO "proof", in a seemingly crude attempt to tarnish his business reputation.
your refusal to show any, but the meaningless emails between the both of you, just goes to show that you are like all of the others here that come and make claims with ZERO proof. and usually, those people dont last that long here.... You're making all of this cause people to avoid you, and in my eyes, someone that everyone should avoid, for fear of their own reputations.

Usually, when youre an up and comming breeder... youd be all over it to show your information and findings from your vet... i certainly know i would! Why would i want to wait and tarnish my own name by being so darned stubborn.... when i have the proof sitting right there in front of me? Its not being OWED to anyone but yourself. Those results are your proof that you are not lying.

If youre not lying, how come no one else has come forward with this information about jim, and his chameleons in the past? i mean, it was 6 months ago.... theres BOUND to be someone who ALSO has a problem with their chams, if he was even using the "hormone" at all.
They haven't because i don't think there was anything wrong with those animals when they left jims possession.

 

[Jim O]

John Schmitt summed it up really well a few posts up, but I'll condense it down to one sentence.


WHERE ARE THE VET REPORTS HEIKA?

Or, put another way...

 

[Griz]

Heika, you are absolutely foolish if you think that Jim is walking away from this damaged. I, for one, would be EXTREMELY hesitant to sell you anything as, based upon your own emails, your husbandry has led to the demise of these fine animals. As a seller, there is no way in the world, regardless of cash in hand, that I would sell my animals to you. Why would your cash be worth the demise of an animal?

I've called Jim many different names, a lot of which were unpleasant but even I, someone who has gone after him many times, agree 100% with him. Your behavior is nothing short of lacking....

Griz

 

[dprince]

Heika, I honestly think you can put this whole thing to rest if you could post pictures, reports, whatever you have. I understand that this is a tough situation, but it would go a long way to helping your credibility, as well as helping ChamCo understand what may or may not have gone on with their animals. Everyone wins.

 

[Serafim]

Heika, you are absolutely foolish if you think that Jim is walking away from this damaged. I, for one, would be EXTREMELY hesitant to sell you anything as, based upon your own emails, your husbandry has led to the demise of these fine animals. As a seller, there is no way in the world, regardless of cash in hand, that I would sell my animals to you. Why would your cash be worth the demise of an animal?

I agree 100% I could see an issue if the problems happened after 2 weeks or a month. But 6 months that is just insane. And then you attempt to stain his good reputation with false accusations. You have alot of nerve....

 

[Chris Anderson]

I’ve known both Heika and Jim for a long time. Jim and I have had differences in the past as well as mutual respect and cooperation trying to provide information to the general chameleon community. His name is known and his reputation for providing customer service beyond his TOS well respected. I also am aware of the great amount of care that Heika puts into her animals and the effort she makes trying to help others do the same. This situation is unfortunate and I have a couple observations and thoughts I wanted to bring up having read this thread and seen this going on.

The accusation was proved false in that the chemical cited would not have that result even if it WAS used.

Actually not. The cited substance was prozyme, which Ivan discussed with regard to its use on a patient’s animal experiencing growth issues. In Ivan’s email to Heika from Sunday, July 15, 2007, and in the thread started by Jim, Ivan states that prozyme and probiotics are not the same and act differently with different results. Discussion indicating that the result was not possible with use was in regard to probiotics, not prozyme.

Filarial worm issues: It seems that the only thing Heika discussed publicly was the connection between the animal's with bone density issues and having gotten them from you. She never publicly mentioned your name in the issue with the parasites or provided any public connection to your company with that issue (although now you have). The only mention of that animal being from you was in email exchanges to you and to be honest, I don't see her blaming you for it, only discussing it with you and asking for your thoughts. In fact, she states in her email:
“I would really, really appreciate your input. … This is not a blame game, and even if the females did ship infected with microfilarials, I can completely understand how they would go undetected. It is a non-issue. The issue is making sure it doesn't spread to the rest of my chameleons and treating the infected ones.”
She didn't accuse you of anything with regard to it or post anything in the forums accusing you of anything either. Telling you about a problem she had with an animal she got from you isn't really an attack on the company or an allegation that it was your fault. I don't see any remark to indicate such on the filarial worm issue. She brought it up for your input, not to blame you (she never has as far as all the communication shows) and its completely her right not to provide documentation as she isn't asking for anything or saying it was your fault. You, in this thread are the only one who has allowed the public to realize where the animal came from.

Also Jim, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it to in a way. You flip flop back and forth between embracing your partial, albeit small part, owners' words and turning your back on their actions as not representative of the company. You compare the situation to a small shareholder of a major public company speaking on behalf of the company, which I understand but at the same time, feel doesn't completely apply. There is a difference between a public corporation with thousands of shareholders and a small private company with two additional partial owners who you have posting on behalf of the company part of the time and then saying that their words don't represent the company when it so suites you as it seems. In the same thread, you have Ivan posting in conjunction to yourself (posted the same minute the thread was created by you) and also exchanging emails on the topic with Heika yet when your other part owner posts (in such a manner that he and you have both said was uncalled for), you say that believing that his words are a reflection of the company is absurd. Now, I'm sure Matt acted on his own and you don't condone his words in the post but expecting customers to embrace the words and thoughts of one part owner on this topic and to just know to ignore the third is unrealistic. If I were in your situation, I would make it very clear to my small-part owners that they are absolutely not to involve themselves with company issues unless discussed and agreed upon by the principle owner (you) and that as part owners, they have an obligation to the company to conduct themselves appropriately when doing so. Otherwise, you chose to take them on and be part of the picture and are responsible for how that impacts your company as a result. I may be alone in that feeling but I see it as a liability that you need to manage and accept responsibility for, especially if you are going to let your part owners speak on behalf of the company or herd at any point (which you do). It seems to me that Heika posted the connection to the bone density issues with her animals and your company directly as a result of Matt's actions and, following my previous train of thought, whether or not ii was right for that connection to be made publicly, a certain degree of responsibility for this allegation being made publicly lies on your company and its owners, whether that responsibility be direct or indirect. In reality, you started the threads that implicated your company in any accusations or health issues, not Heika or anyone else. She posted on forums seeking information on a condition without any note of the origin of the animals in the threads she created.

Moving on, you speak of the allegations on the use of ProZyme now like she started the rumor. She came to you speaking of a rumor she heard seeking answers to certain questions to help her animals. Any indication that you might not reply honestly, in my opinion, was not to indicate she felt you’d lie but to reassure you that you could speak openly with her without concern of her using the information against you. You replied that it was untrue and after discussing prozyme and probiotics, during which she never indicated she had any intention of posting that you sold her the animals or that she blamed you, it seems to me that you wanted to use her and her animals to dispel the rumor that she did not start nor had she implicated you in on any of the forum threads you are now using to condemn her. Ivan himself has stated where a notion of prozyme and its effects probably originated (a mistaken patient who crisscrossed his instructions) and it is not Heika’s fault that it spread to the rumor it has today or that curiosity over your growth rates have triggered mass speculation over what you are doing differently from everyone else. She was not asking you for anything other then information and advice and made clear that she had no intention of placing blame on you in the forums or making the connection to your animals. You sought to attack a widespread rumor and demanded her cooperation to do so which she was not willing to do once the tone turned into assigning her the responsibility to thwart the suspicion.

Further, any allegation or connection to you with her bone density issues was brought on directly as a result of your business partner’s attack in a thread YOU started on the topic, not her. She came forward with the information when Matt implied that she didn’t have the experience to contribute to a discussion on probiotics and prozyme. She then provided the information that for some reason, all 6 animals from you were experiencing bone density issues while other animals from other sources kept in the same manner by her were not. While I find it odd that other animals from other sources kept the same way in her care do not show these issues as well, the information does not exist yet to say whether it was a recent husbandry issue or secondary to previous condition or treatment.

Would it be interesting to determine what the filarial worm infestation was and where it came from? Absolutely!
Did she ever post on a forum on the filarial worm issue indicating you to be at fault? Nope
Did she ever blame you for the filarial worm issue? Nope
Is she required for any reason to provide you documentation on the filarial worm issue? Nope, no reason for her to other then to settle curiosity

Would it be interesting to see documentation looking into the bone density issue and a more definitive diagnosis? Sure would, I’m sure Heika would like more info on it too.
Did she post on a forum blaming you or implicating you in any way prior to her response to Matt, your business partner? Nope
Was her post provoked? Absolutely!
Was her post in need of additional data and support to tie blame to your company, Jim? Yeah, just because all 6 animals from you have bone density issues while 2 others from other sources don’t doesn’t prove anything definitive and more information is needed to decided either way. Its obvious to me, however, that you and your partners beat pretty hard before anything was posted from her implicating you with the issue.

To me it looks like you felt it was your right to demand and her obligation to provide documentation to dispel a rumor she didn’t start nor provide information on forum threads implicating you were responsible as you claim she did. A cooperative exchange turned into disapproval over how the other was answering the others questions (on both sides), which spread to unnecessary forum threads on a rumor and rude exchanges from both parties. Neither one of you are without blame on this getting to this stage but Jim, I don’t think the picture you so nicely painted for everyone is a very accurate representation of the situation.

Just my 2 cents,

Chris Anderson

 

[kmurphy]

Chris I understand your point but I respectfully don't agree. In a small community like reptiles, chams in particular, it doesn't take long for people to put 2 & 2 together. Besides the fact that no one knows who was told privately(Perhaps you were.). In any case it is safe to assume others knew of her problems and where she felt the blame fell.
Regardless of all this it is now out in the public, and I don't believe it is too much to ask for Heika to share the veterinarian reports with one of his colleague's. I would be surprised if her vet cares as much as she does. To say she is under no obligation to share this information is wrong. IMO.

 

[mattjillson]

Chris,

Consider my replies a cost of doing business if you're going to slander and libel the Chameleon Company. I think you've felt that burn before and can attest to my sincerity and the voracity of that statement. The best way to keep me quite is to have a legitimate gripe that wasn't addressed properly and some type, ANY TYPE of documentation to prove it. Problem is a lot has been said by Heika but nothing has been backed up at all, what so ever. The Company produces the best and healthiest Chameleons anywhere and we do it in numbers, say otherwise and you better have a valid point to back yourself up. I understand the whole "how in the hell do they do it", but unfortunately for the forum doggs, you guys will have to ride someone else's coat tails or find out yourself through hard work. I think the lesson to be learned here is if you aren't willing to put in hard work with Chameleons you can expect Heika type of results with your animals.

I love how you defend a forum buddy, so that she'll keep posting that you actually know something on the chameleon forums, but really don't really address the fact that Jim went above and beyond the company's TOS to try and help her out. Talk about having one's cake and eating it too, huh? I think one day when you become a real breeder and not an import middle man or a "buy low sell high" Parsonii owner you'll understand that going out of your way to please a bad customer is a good thing. Come back to us after 4 months and doesn't think at all the problem could lie with her. Really Chris? Is Cornell really setting the bar that low now in their grads?

-Matt Jillson

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Chris

Apparently you and i are interpreting the following statements differently

This was Ivan's reply to the link:
Jim, that product is ProZyme which is not even a probiotic. I remember mentioning on a chameleon forum about 4 years ago that I used a probiotic in a chameleon and recommended a client to use ProZyme for another animal. One person in the forums misunderstood me and used ProZyme with their chameleons which led to a great growth rate and better eating habits for the animal. ProZyme is a digestion helper in that it pre digests much of the carbs and fats by the time it hits the gut. Then, normal digestion breaks down even more carbs and fat and thus leads to much better absorption, therefore more nutrients available, therefore better growth and activity. If you have better growth but crappy husbandry practices, it indeed can lead to MBD but has nothing to do with growth hormones added.

Ronnie's product uses nothing of this sort. He uses regular probiotics like Lactobacillus and such which doesn't lead to increased rates. Furthermore, Ronnie's gutload has a incredibly accurate Ca ratio that should prevent any problems should they arise. Much more reason to believe that ignorant/jealous people are talking and they are getting others to listen.

In the end, even if we were using Pro-Zyme it could only be a good thing. But as it stands, we are not using the product anyway. I have used Pro-Zyme for many years on dogs, cats, birds and reptiles with absolutely no ill-effects.

And

Pro-Zyme is NOT a pro-biotic but a digestive aid enzyme. What does that mean? Well, as you probably know, any living being wastes a percentage of what it eats. In dogs it is suspected that only 70% of the food digested is actually absorbed. Well pro-zyme aids in pre-digesting the food so that up to 90% can be absorbed and thus more nutrients are available for the animal. Does that mean a better growth rate? Yes, but not an uncontrolled one. Of course, all that would have been very clear by just reading the website that Pro-Zyme has for all to see. However, the person that started the rumor doesn't seem to be literate or just believes that others will believe the rumor blindly without researching on their own. All that said, we don't use Pro-Zyme on our chameleons even though I encourage using it to my clients for weaker, stunted animals regardless of species.

And I believe that this is the first Email from Heika you stated you thought her manner was to reassure Jim that he could be open with her?

Hi Jim,

I need to address this with you, although I am very reluctant to. However, the health of my females seems to depend on it.

I heard rumors in January that you were using a substance that enhanced growth. I have a link to the product somewhere here. I also heard that this stuff increased growth at the expense of calcium uptake, and that some individuals developed MBD. I had already paid you for the females that I have now, and really thought that it was a bunch of nonsense.. I felt that your reputation and ethics would prevent you from selling animals who were part of this experiment without informing the recipients.

The young female that I emailed you about a while ago has now died. The necropsy revealed MBD as the cause. When I received the results, I panicked. I thought, holy shit, what have I done wrong?!? I have the right lights, the right supplements, the right everything.. why MBD? That was yesterday. Today, I took one of the nosy be females in because I suspected she was egg bound. She is.. and also has MBD. She is egg bound as a result of it. I drove home, collected chameleons, and drove back to the vet. I have a monstrous vet bill, but one thing is certain. Only the females that I received from you have MBD. The nosy be females are the worst off.. they were the oldest females I received from you. The younger ones have it to varying degrees. 2 other females and a male were also x-rayed that came from other sources, and they all proved to be healthy animals with no sign of MBD. They were kept in exactly the same conditions as the females I purchased from you, and were purchased at approximately the same time.

I am not asking for any compensation.. the money is spent, and I don’t want replacement animals. I can’t imagine that you don’t know about this issue, and I want to know how you are treating your affected animals. I need to know. I also need to know if your animals are showing genetic problems. Are you seeing poor hatch rates out of treated animals? Are the offspring strong? Please be forthcoming, I need to know everything about this stuff, because I need to make decisions based upon what you have to say.

I don’t want to go public with this.. no BOI, no nothing. I don’t want my breeding stock or my husbandry to be viewed as substandard. My success as a new breeder depends upon a good reputation, and I don’t want that smear on my name. I am sure that is your goal too. So, please, just answer my questions honestly so we can move on from this.

Thanks,

Heika

As the statements in bold indicate, she had already decided that Jim was conducting some wild hormone experiment and was simply looking to pull an admission out of him. When he did not oblige her was when she started posting. As Kevin stated, it is a small community. She is a forum rat and her thinly veiled posts were pretty obvious to those that frequent the forums.


Chris, i would be the first to call Jim out on this but unless you are reading this exchange through biased glasses, not a single accusation she has made has been backed by a shred of evidence or documentation.

Is Heika obligated to provide that documentation if it exists? Absolutely not from any legal standpoint. But to smear a company and make specific allegations and then simply refuse to back it up is both ethically and morally wrong. And, in the court of public opinion it pretty much brands you as both a Crank and a Liar.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,
You assumed way to much, and your post is full of multiple innacuracies. In the hope that each of your paragraphas has a theme. I will summarize each with one sentance that suits you, then reply.

Paragraph #1) No disagreement.

#2) Prozyme vs probiotics: Your points are irrelevant and immaterial, as Heika referred to it as our possible use Prozyme (see her post #27) even after we said we had no use of the product ever. She's still suggesting the rumor.

#3-4) Filarial worms; You say it was not a slight on me as she didn't identify me publicly in forum. But she had already acknowledged telling people Chris. And OBTW, you admitted to me that you heard the rumor a while back of the alleged use of probiotic and hormone-like growth enhancers, and you didn't read it on line ! One of the weakest logic points I have seen lately ! Its called word of mouth. Whatever her concerns are for filarials, it is also a larger issue. You know the magnitude that a genuine diagnosis of filarials in CBB animals would be. The issue is that the diagnosis has to be accurate and confirmed. I suggest it was neither. It also does not take two weeks to ID a worm.

#5) Interest holders and obligations: You say I flip flop. Sorry, but read again. First off, LLC's are run by managing members, who speak for the LLC. That's the law. You have confused owner with shareholder. Both can be interchanged to a degree, but the correct designation of a shareholder would be an "owner without any managerial or decision making authority in the operations of the LLC". Check up with SEC and Florida Secretary of State Statutes. I have not disassociated myself from their comments, yet they also speak for themselves. I asked Ivan to participate, and as such, I take full responsibility for his involvement here. Others said his conduct was fine and contributions right on the money. Matt shouldn't have said a few things, and as soon as I saw what he posted, I asked him to edit it. I also acknowledged such in the firt post.

#6) this quote catches it pretty well:

.... it seems to me that you wanted to use her and her animals to dispel the rumor that she did not start nor had she implicated you in on any of the forum threads you are now using to condemn her. Ivan himself has stated where a notion of prozyme and its effects probably originated (a mistaken patient who crisscrossed his instructions) and it is not Heika’s fault that it spread to the rumor it has today or that curiosity over your growth rates have triggered mass speculation over what you are doing differently from everyone else.

Read the thread starter on Digestive enzymes Chris. Heika was not in the thread until she posted about my "16 inch chameleons", a lie in itself, and a deliberate propagation of the rumor. Did you miss how the thread was hijacked ? BTW, the issue to us was now to dispel the rumor, which was a complete lie. Should we not have tried to dispel it Chris ? You had heard of it prior. Thanks for the phone call you never gave me about it BTW. Heika's own words in the very bginning were that whe felt the rumor had hurt me. Wonder who spread it .. any people we know ?

#7) Further, any allegation or connection to you with her bone density issues was brought on directly as a result of your business partner’s attack in a thread YOU started on the topic, not her.

No, it was in her very first email, asking for help. The only diagnosis she ever claimed to have for MBD was "bone density", and it was a dicussion for 12 days before what you claim of her posting it because of Matt. She interchanged the two often. She asked for help on MBD. Look at the amount of help others tried to give her, and was it not prudent to determine if it truly is MBD before we suggest changes ? Or maybe we should just have her make changes without being sure of what really needed to be fixed ! Her stonewalling and the disagreements were all revved up long before the moment you cite. Read the emails again. And no, she has provided only unsubstantiated accusations. Believe what you want to hear I guess. At this point, I would need full contact info to verify anything she produced, as there was nothing stopping her in the beginning, and yet she chose not to advance it.

8) Filarials again, and that Heika has no obligation. See above. Sorry, but I expected a more seasoned opinion from you considering all the ramifications. And yes, she did tell others.

9) You have a right to your opinion. Others have read plenty and feel otherwise.

In summary, Chris I do not think you could composed a more innacurate summary in almost every category as you did if you tried. The amazing thing you find out when you investigate such a false and maliscious rumor as this is that, while you are appreciative of those who will at least admit that they heard, it from the mouth of an unknown entity, you can't find a soul that then spoke it to another set of ears, and yet it propagated in certain circles, didn't it.