CurtisF
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Heika Sample ... Seller Beware
- Thread starter Chameleon Company
- Start date
eric adrignola
New member
I started reading this very late into things. I think it's ridiculous to assume such growth is a result of hormones and probiotics and such. I've had disagreements with Jim over this very subject!
Fact is, I've seen pardalis and calyptratus, raised indoors, devoid of UVB, grow at incredible rates - nearly 10 inches long in 2 months for veileds.
It's not a result of growth hormones, and it's not simply because the sun is shining on Florida, it's a matter of getting a lot of food and the proper balance of nutrients.
It is also clear that it's FAR easier to GET that healthy balance of D3 and calcium absorption if the little suckers are in natural sunlight. But you DO NOT need it to obtain such growth - I've seen it in animals raised indoors with repcal dusted crickets only.
So, while I don't think ultra-fast growth is in and of itself a GOOD thing all the time (depends on a lot of variables - especially who the breeder is), I will say accusations of hormone usage are crazy, as they don't need hormones to grow that fast - just lots of food and D3.
I guess, Jim, the issue is not that the customer wasn't happy and complained, but that the customer went on spreading unfounded rumors (libel/slander) in order to lay blame not on themselves, but the breeder? That right?
This is one of those threads I would have read at my old job (hated it, killed time online), but don't get a chance to read in full because I like my new job (health inspector).
this is why I do't get into pardalis. One day, I'm going to end up with one, and I'll have to deal with all these wars and conflicts... maybe I'll stay neutral.
Fact is, I've seen pardalis and calyptratus, raised indoors, devoid of UVB, grow at incredible rates - nearly 10 inches long in 2 months for veileds.
It's not a result of growth hormones, and it's not simply because the sun is shining on Florida, it's a matter of getting a lot of food and the proper balance of nutrients.
It is also clear that it's FAR easier to GET that healthy balance of D3 and calcium absorption if the little suckers are in natural sunlight. But you DO NOT need it to obtain such growth - I've seen it in animals raised indoors with repcal dusted crickets only.
So, while I don't think ultra-fast growth is in and of itself a GOOD thing all the time (depends on a lot of variables - especially who the breeder is), I will say accusations of hormone usage are crazy, as they don't need hormones to grow that fast - just lots of food and D3.
I guess, Jim, the issue is not that the customer wasn't happy and complained, but that the customer went on spreading unfounded rumors (libel/slander) in order to lay blame not on themselves, but the breeder? That right?
This is one of those threads I would have read at my old job (hated it, killed time online), but don't get a chance to read in full because I like my new job (health inspector).
this is why I do't get into pardalis. One day, I'm going to end up with one, and I'll have to deal with all these wars and conflicts... maybe I'll stay neutral.
Chameleon Company
New member
All good points Eric,
And I thank you for posting your own anecdotal experiences. Regarding your question:
I would first have to say that the customer was happy, for an extended period of time. From her own emails, everything was OK, and she expressed great satisfaction, for at least four months. She lost one animal in the fifth month, and then one she felt was fit to breed ran into complications in the sixth month while gravid. For those contemplating these critters, success is not 100% when breeding, far from it, and setbacks are still inevitable. I will readily acknowledge that Heika may have been running into problems before she finally said something to me, but it only takes a couple of months to kill a healthy chameleon, if that. She had them far longer with no complaints. Even then, I offered two replacements free. After almost six months. No one does that. No one.
Going back to her first email, and well dissected by Laura, Heika had already assigned blame based on her swallowing the rumor fed her by a few of my competitors and their lackeys. It made the demise of a couple of chameleons in her care for approximately six months someone else's fault .... how friggin' convenient is that !! Anyone with experience knows that despite our gains in husbandry and ability to better disseminate information in the last decade, chameleon husbandry is still a school of hard knocks. My beef with her is that as recently as this week she was still spreading the rumor, which is as absurd as you recognize. Come on down and defend that Heika !
Heika also did not invent this rumor. My bigger beef is that it was fed her by a few others who otherwise pretend to have status in the community. Not one has the balls to come here and defend the allegation, or apologize. Chicken feces all.
And I thank you for posting your own anecdotal experiences. Regarding your question:
I would first have to say that the customer was happy, for an extended period of time. From her own emails, everything was OK, and she expressed great satisfaction, for at least four months. She lost one animal in the fifth month, and then one she felt was fit to breed ran into complications in the sixth month while gravid. For those contemplating these critters, success is not 100% when breeding, far from it, and setbacks are still inevitable. I will readily acknowledge that Heika may have been running into problems before she finally said something to me, but it only takes a couple of months to kill a healthy chameleon, if that. She had them far longer with no complaints. Even then, I offered two replacements free. After almost six months. No one does that. No one.
Going back to her first email, and well dissected by Laura, Heika had already assigned blame based on her swallowing the rumor fed her by a few of my competitors and their lackeys. It made the demise of a couple of chameleons in her care for approximately six months someone else's fault .... how friggin' convenient is that !! Anyone with experience knows that despite our gains in husbandry and ability to better disseminate information in the last decade, chameleon husbandry is still a school of hard knocks. My beef with her is that as recently as this week she was still spreading the rumor, which is as absurd as you recognize. Come on down and defend that Heika !
Heika also did not invent this rumor. My bigger beef is that it was fed her by a few others who otherwise pretend to have status in the community. Not one has the balls to come here and defend the allegation, or apologize. Chicken feces all.
Chris Anderson
Calumma parsonii
Jim-
For some reason, you seem convinced that my reasoning for entering my thoughts on your current dispute with Heika is somehow related to a feud from 3 years ago or that I hold a grudge still over this or have an axe to grind from it still. I am posting to express that this is not the case and hopefully set a few misconceptions straight.
As you well know, since working out our differences after the referenced dispute, our exchanges and interactions have been cordial and of mutual cooperation. While we’ve not corresponded frequently, we’ve discussed a range of topics within chameleon care including discussion of supplementation regiments and nutrition, my seeking observation notes from you while checking on a submitted article for the E-Zine and also an interview article I published on the E-Zine on your company and experiences while running it. None of these correspondences would have occurred had I still sought any type of axe grinding or maintained resentment over the aforementioned dispute, least of all featuring anything in the E-Zine that validated or credited you and your company in any way. I would not have stood in the face of the implications suffered as a result of producing this interview had I had it out for you or your company.
You’ve claimed that I simply took the position I did because I was looking out for a friend and had been waiting for an excuse to attack you and your company yet the reality is that Heika and I speak rarely at best. In fact, prior to this situation, I hadn’t spoken to her in well over 5 months other then a couple brief comments on the few posts I manage to produce these days on various forum posts. As far as the notion that it was simply an excuse to attack you and your company, again I have to remind you that I had no itching to do so that was awaiting any type of excuse to come out as is evident by our cooperation over the last few years.
Returning briefly to my opinion on your BOI thread on Heika, my opinion is based on the impression I got having followed the original thread on chameleonforums. Following the thread originally, I felt that you came on from the start in a condescending manner. You were toward me immediately in response to my questions which I was very clear in my post were theoretically based questions. Whether or not you meant to come across that way or not, the impression I got from the get go was that you were out to turn it into a fight. Obviously as soon as Heika started to respond in that thread, it quickly deteriorated and both sides are at fault for it. The pretty picture you painted for yourself on the BOI was not an accurate depiction as far as I’m concerned though and I still feel that many of the accusations you made against Heika in the BOI thread were stretches to say the least. Do I think Heika is innocent in all this? No, not at all. She made statements in private to you and even in public which were in questionable judgment but after reading the email exchanges as well, it was clear to me that she wasn’t out to place blame (she expressed that it fell on her husbandry), wasn’t trying to get anything from you other then information and insight and at least initially, stayed away from implicating your company in her posts relating to the issues with her animals. It also seemed clear to me that you were ticked about the rumor itself and fully expected her to oblige you with everything you wanted to disprove the rumor in itself, even when she had said to you that it must be something in her own husbandry since you don’t use the products she had heard you had. Now, I do not know what she may have told other people in private about the situation or connection to your company with those animals and am not defending this aspect of the argument as a result. I’ve explained why I disagree with you on this thread before and provided references as to why. You’re statements that my opinion lacks factual backing are fine but my interpretation of the situation is different. Interpretations are subjective and I simply disagree, whether or not you like it and I am under no obligation to defend them further from your ridiculous theories as to my motive. I have no financial incentive to see you or your business suffer and I wouldn’t have published the E-Zine interview with you on your company and experience if I had an axe to grind over some “long-standing feud.”
Moving on to your assumptions about my involvement in this rumor, I have to point out that for someone so worked up about accusations being made about you and your company without evidence, you are sure loose about making them yourself without anything to back it up! For the record, any instance where I have discussed this rumor with anyone has been when it has been brought up to me. Generally, when it has been brought up to me, it is accompanied with questions about what health issues it could cause. I’ve never indicated that it was anything more then rumor and have been clear when answering questions about possible health issues that my thoughts were simply concerns I had that needed further examination. As the frequency of this rumor grew, it was discussed with my assistant editor of the E-Zine about a possible project to research the impact of raising veiled clutches with and without Prozyme enhanced gutload. We felt that with the notion of using such products in breeding practices growing, it was in the interest of the general community to examine these concerns and if need be, provide data to discourage its application. Unfortunately, neither his or my time has yet to allow for such a research project, hence my questions regarding Ivan’s thoughts on calcium impact. What those individuals who sought my thoughts on potential health problems may have done with the concerns I expressed, I do not know and do not have any control over. Blanket statements from you indicating that by answering questions about theoretical growth enhancing product use is to foment a rumor that I gave no indication was anything but is crap and the epitome of fishing for someone, anyone to point another finger at. Talk about whale dung and a weakness in knowledge and logic in one’s statements!
You’ve also brought up my failure to speak with you via telephone many times. Unfortunately, my free time during the period which I heard the majority of the reports was limited (as it still is) and I never was free to inform you after having had the rumor brought to my attention and didn’t think of it otherwise, my apologies. As for your reference to not calling you recently when you contacted me about hearing the rumor, I didn’t do so purposely! If you remember, after informing you that I was not a member of the private email list you thought the rumor was originally started and discussed on and having providing you with the contact information for the list owner, you asked me if I had any contacts I could get in touch with to snoop around the archives for you before you contacted the list owner. I didn’t call you as you requested or reply to your email because I have no interest in playing these types of games or being one of your goons!
Jim, I’ve recommended individuals consider purchasing from you many times in the past and never did I discourage anyone from purchasing from you having heard the rumor described in this thread. You and I have disagreed on things in the past and not seen eye to eye and I still maintained the same referral. Your desire to try to dig up long left disputes, drag in myself and other breeders as accomplices who you claim to be part of my or Heika’s or whoever else’s underground anti-ChameleonCompany taskforce with nothing more then conspiracy theories and anonymous hearsay will definitely impact that referral, however and as I already said, I will never personally conduct business with you either as a result. Further, your indications that I have any input or say in Heika’s actions or decisions are similarly bogus as she has always, to my knowledge and continues to act on her own account.
Good luck with your company.
Regards,
Chris
For some reason, you seem convinced that my reasoning for entering my thoughts on your current dispute with Heika is somehow related to a feud from 3 years ago or that I hold a grudge still over this or have an axe to grind from it still. I am posting to express that this is not the case and hopefully set a few misconceptions straight.
As you well know, since working out our differences after the referenced dispute, our exchanges and interactions have been cordial and of mutual cooperation. While we’ve not corresponded frequently, we’ve discussed a range of topics within chameleon care including discussion of supplementation regiments and nutrition, my seeking observation notes from you while checking on a submitted article for the E-Zine and also an interview article I published on the E-Zine on your company and experiences while running it. None of these correspondences would have occurred had I still sought any type of axe grinding or maintained resentment over the aforementioned dispute, least of all featuring anything in the E-Zine that validated or credited you and your company in any way. I would not have stood in the face of the implications suffered as a result of producing this interview had I had it out for you or your company.
You’ve claimed that I simply took the position I did because I was looking out for a friend and had been waiting for an excuse to attack you and your company yet the reality is that Heika and I speak rarely at best. In fact, prior to this situation, I hadn’t spoken to her in well over 5 months other then a couple brief comments on the few posts I manage to produce these days on various forum posts. As far as the notion that it was simply an excuse to attack you and your company, again I have to remind you that I had no itching to do so that was awaiting any type of excuse to come out as is evident by our cooperation over the last few years.
Returning briefly to my opinion on your BOI thread on Heika, my opinion is based on the impression I got having followed the original thread on chameleonforums. Following the thread originally, I felt that you came on from the start in a condescending manner. You were toward me immediately in response to my questions which I was very clear in my post were theoretically based questions. Whether or not you meant to come across that way or not, the impression I got from the get go was that you were out to turn it into a fight. Obviously as soon as Heika started to respond in that thread, it quickly deteriorated and both sides are at fault for it. The pretty picture you painted for yourself on the BOI was not an accurate depiction as far as I’m concerned though and I still feel that many of the accusations you made against Heika in the BOI thread were stretches to say the least. Do I think Heika is innocent in all this? No, not at all. She made statements in private to you and even in public which were in questionable judgment but after reading the email exchanges as well, it was clear to me that she wasn’t out to place blame (she expressed that it fell on her husbandry), wasn’t trying to get anything from you other then information and insight and at least initially, stayed away from implicating your company in her posts relating to the issues with her animals. It also seemed clear to me that you were ticked about the rumor itself and fully expected her to oblige you with everything you wanted to disprove the rumor in itself, even when she had said to you that it must be something in her own husbandry since you don’t use the products she had heard you had. Now, I do not know what she may have told other people in private about the situation or connection to your company with those animals and am not defending this aspect of the argument as a result. I’ve explained why I disagree with you on this thread before and provided references as to why. You’re statements that my opinion lacks factual backing are fine but my interpretation of the situation is different. Interpretations are subjective and I simply disagree, whether or not you like it and I am under no obligation to defend them further from your ridiculous theories as to my motive. I have no financial incentive to see you or your business suffer and I wouldn’t have published the E-Zine interview with you on your company and experience if I had an axe to grind over some “long-standing feud.”
Moving on to your assumptions about my involvement in this rumor, I have to point out that for someone so worked up about accusations being made about you and your company without evidence, you are sure loose about making them yourself without anything to back it up! For the record, any instance where I have discussed this rumor with anyone has been when it has been brought up to me. Generally, when it has been brought up to me, it is accompanied with questions about what health issues it could cause. I’ve never indicated that it was anything more then rumor and have been clear when answering questions about possible health issues that my thoughts were simply concerns I had that needed further examination. As the frequency of this rumor grew, it was discussed with my assistant editor of the E-Zine about a possible project to research the impact of raising veiled clutches with and without Prozyme enhanced gutload. We felt that with the notion of using such products in breeding practices growing, it was in the interest of the general community to examine these concerns and if need be, provide data to discourage its application. Unfortunately, neither his or my time has yet to allow for such a research project, hence my questions regarding Ivan’s thoughts on calcium impact. What those individuals who sought my thoughts on potential health problems may have done with the concerns I expressed, I do not know and do not have any control over. Blanket statements from you indicating that by answering questions about theoretical growth enhancing product use is to foment a rumor that I gave no indication was anything but is crap and the epitome of fishing for someone, anyone to point another finger at. Talk about whale dung and a weakness in knowledge and logic in one’s statements!
You’ve also brought up my failure to speak with you via telephone many times. Unfortunately, my free time during the period which I heard the majority of the reports was limited (as it still is) and I never was free to inform you after having had the rumor brought to my attention and didn’t think of it otherwise, my apologies. As for your reference to not calling you recently when you contacted me about hearing the rumor, I didn’t do so purposely! If you remember, after informing you that I was not a member of the private email list you thought the rumor was originally started and discussed on and having providing you with the contact information for the list owner, you asked me if I had any contacts I could get in touch with to snoop around the archives for you before you contacted the list owner. I didn’t call you as you requested or reply to your email because I have no interest in playing these types of games or being one of your goons!
Jim, I’ve recommended individuals consider purchasing from you many times in the past and never did I discourage anyone from purchasing from you having heard the rumor described in this thread. You and I have disagreed on things in the past and not seen eye to eye and I still maintained the same referral. Your desire to try to dig up long left disputes, drag in myself and other breeders as accomplices who you claim to be part of my or Heika’s or whoever else’s underground anti-ChameleonCompany taskforce with nothing more then conspiracy theories and anonymous hearsay will definitely impact that referral, however and as I already said, I will never personally conduct business with you either as a result. Further, your indications that I have any input or say in Heika’s actions or decisions are similarly bogus as she has always, to my knowledge and continues to act on her own account.
Good luck with your company.
Regards,
Chris
ravensgait
Convoluted Member
Chris you posted this
""For some reason, you seem convinced that my reasoning for entering my thoughts on your current dispute with Heika is somehow related to a feud from 3 years ago or that I hold a grudge still over this or have an axe to grind from it still. I am posting to express that this is not the case and hopefully set a few misconceptions straight. ""
Well from what I've seen you post in this thread it sure looks like you have a hard one on for Jim.. If you want to do something useful why not talk to Heika and get the info that she claims to have and post it here. Or if she can't provide the info IE Proof!! then come back here and say as much!! And please don't try and match Jim with your own overly long and drawn out post, just spit it out....Randy
""For some reason, you seem convinced that my reasoning for entering my thoughts on your current dispute with Heika is somehow related to a feud from 3 years ago or that I hold a grudge still over this or have an axe to grind from it still. I am posting to express that this is not the case and hopefully set a few misconceptions straight. ""
Well from what I've seen you post in this thread it sure looks like you have a hard one on for Jim.. If you want to do something useful why not talk to Heika and get the info that she claims to have and post it here. Or if she can't provide the info IE Proof!! then come back here and say as much!! And please don't try and match Jim with your own overly long and drawn out post, just spit it out....Randy
Chameleon Company
New member
Chris,
I thank you for better explaining your involvement or lack there-of. I still disagree with many of your other conclusions, feel they struggle for support with even a twisted reading of the communications, and just do not hold water. To pick one of several glaring examples:
Do you consider yourself an astute reader ? While she did state the above in one email, did you miss the posts, and now continued direct efforts by Heika to spread the falsehoods ? All threads started when it became clear that she was not taking any responsibility in the issue, but rather making efforts to continue to perpetrate a lie fed her by others.
Chris, did you forward email communications from me to you to others of late ? Could they have been then forwarded again ?
And yet "for the record", and "as the frequency of this rumor grew", and you and J "discussed a possible project to research .... " it never occured to you that the decent thing to do was give me a call or contact me. Have we not spoken on the phone, traded emails, etc in the past six months in friendly exchanges ? BTW Chris, your own actions above were to foment the rumor. Here's your explanation for not contacting me:
But yet you had time to discuss it in greater frequency, contemplate a project ....
Unlike others Chris, when I hear a "rumor", I get to the bottom of it. In this case, Heika had stated that falshoods about my business were discussed in a private forum, I was able to get a contact for S., and another, and confirmed that Heika's statement was false. What a surprise that was, huh.
I thank you for those times when you have sent me customers, said good things about me and my business, etc. But your decision to join these threads, draw conclusions that are not supported by the words and actions of others, or parsed so poorly as to be unrecognizable as to what emails and communications are you reading, is not excused by past claimed good will.
Chris, what is clear by your own words is that the rumor became popular in your own circles, as it "grew in frequency". Not in other circles it seems, just yours. As Ricky would say: "Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do"
I thank you for better explaining your involvement or lack there-of. I still disagree with many of your other conclusions, feel they struggle for support with even a twisted reading of the communications, and just do not hold water. To pick one of several glaring examples:
Do you consider yourself an astute reader ? While she did state the above in one email, did you miss the posts, and now continued direct efforts by Heika to spread the falsehoods ? All threads started when it became clear that she was not taking any responsibility in the issue, but rather making efforts to continue to perpetrate a lie fed her by others.
Chris, did you forward email communications from me to you to others of late ? Could they have been then forwarded again ?
And yet "for the record", and "as the frequency of this rumor grew", and you and J "discussed a possible project to research .... " it never occured to you that the decent thing to do was give me a call or contact me. Have we not spoken on the phone, traded emails, etc in the past six months in friendly exchanges ? BTW Chris, your own actions above were to foment the rumor. Here's your explanation for not contacting me:
But yet you had time to discuss it in greater frequency, contemplate a project ....
Unlike others Chris, when I hear a "rumor", I get to the bottom of it. In this case, Heika had stated that falshoods about my business were discussed in a private forum, I was able to get a contact for S., and another, and confirmed that Heika's statement was false. What a surprise that was, huh.
I thank you for those times when you have sent me customers, said good things about me and my business, etc. But your decision to join these threads, draw conclusions that are not supported by the words and actions of others, or parsed so poorly as to be unrecognizable as to what emails and communications are you reading, is not excused by past claimed good will.
Chris, what is clear by your own words is that the rumor became popular in your own circles, as it "grew in frequency". Not in other circles it seems, just yours. As Ricky would say: "Lucy, you got some 'splainin to do"
Heika
New member
Yes, I emailed the gentleman who asked for testimonials about Chameleon Company on a public forum. I gave him my phone number and told him he could call if he wanted to hear about my transaction. He called. Once again, Jim has a twisted version of the truth. Not once did the words “growth hormone” leave my mouth. That is a Jim phrase.
The person in question was looking for people’s experiences as buyers of animals from Chameleon Company. I gave him mine. There was nothing secretive about it. I told him that the animals I purchased from Chameleon Company had problems with “bone density”, and then quite simply directed him to this Fauna thread. After all, it tells the whole story. I am not sure why Jim would find that offensive. He feels this thread puts him in a good light.
Veterinarian documentation. I have quite a bit, but it won’t prove that Jim is feeding his animals any particular substance, especially not after the amount of time I have owned them. I can show x-rays of the animals from Chameleon Company with low “bone density”, but what exactly will that prove? How will I even be able to prove that the animals came from Chameleon Company? After all, x-rays don’t show where the animal came from. Anything I add in this respect is simply giving fuel to Jim’s obsession with me. The same goes for the parasites. Yes, there is a problem with them. Unfortunately, the worms aren’t stamped with “Made by Chameleon Company” and there is nothing that I can show that will positively prove that the parasites shipped with the chameleons from Chameleon Company. I still don’t even know what the damn things are, but two knowledgeable and reputable bodies are working to solve that mystery. Jim is aware of this, but still pushes for the information. Why do you want the information, Jim? Are you looking for yet another way to attempt to discredit me?
Because that is what this is really about.
It started with a rumor. I had the temerity to ask if the rumor was true after discovering that the animals I purchased from Chameleon Company had low “bone density”. Believe me when I say I regret ever mentioning it. Jim launched on the Chameleon Crusade, headed up by my name. Apparently, I am the embodiment of all that is wrong with the rest of the chameleon community that is treating him so harshly. I am somehow responsible for the rumor itself, responsible for other breeders who he feels treat him unfairly, and the mouthpiece of everyone who is afraid or unwilling to take him on.
Let’s set that straight right now. I am no one’s mouthpiece. I am my own person, and my views and actions are my own.
Jim recently contacted me, and I feel obligated to share that charming email with those who are following this thread.
I think it is best to dissect this email. First this:
My statements to the gentleman were not malicious or false. This thread speaks for itself, and how the gentleman chooses to interpret the information here is up to him.
This last line is truly the disturbing part.
What this whole thread really boils down to is that Jim and I had a personal disagreement. I was unhappy with the animals that he sold me. Things progressed from bad to worse, and the disagreement exploded onto a public forum. When the situation went in a way that Jim wasn’t happy with, he came over here to launch an attack on me personally, and then, more recently, on anyone who supports my view of the situation, real and imagined. Somehow, he believes that many people are conspiring against him. He really is not that important in the theme of things. All the other panther breeders manage to get along. In fact, they often work together to accomplish goals within the hobby. Not so Jim. He stands apart, because, in his own words, “It can be a cutthroat business.” Yes, cut throat is right. Cut throat to the point where Jim is willing to come in “..behind every post you make in any forum, to post as to your character and link to the BOI thread..”
Jim continues to accuse Chris and me of spreading this rumor. The ball is now in his court. Show the proof. Where are the emails where either of us told someone you are using a growth enhancing product? Or, are you just “fomenting” rumor in yet another attempt to discredit people?
I didn’t start the rumor. I didn’t “foment” it. I am the only person to even ask him if it was true. The biggest “fomenter” of this rumor is Jim himself, casting doubt upon his business and his character with his threats of guerilla tactics and his disturbing conspiracy theories.
Get a grip, Jim. You are frothing at the mouth and punching at nonexistent shadows. You simply aren’t that important.
The person in question was looking for people’s experiences as buyers of animals from Chameleon Company. I gave him mine. There was nothing secretive about it. I told him that the animals I purchased from Chameleon Company had problems with “bone density”, and then quite simply directed him to this Fauna thread. After all, it tells the whole story. I am not sure why Jim would find that offensive. He feels this thread puts him in a good light.
Veterinarian documentation. I have quite a bit, but it won’t prove that Jim is feeding his animals any particular substance, especially not after the amount of time I have owned them. I can show x-rays of the animals from Chameleon Company with low “bone density”, but what exactly will that prove? How will I even be able to prove that the animals came from Chameleon Company? After all, x-rays don’t show where the animal came from. Anything I add in this respect is simply giving fuel to Jim’s obsession with me. The same goes for the parasites. Yes, there is a problem with them. Unfortunately, the worms aren’t stamped with “Made by Chameleon Company” and there is nothing that I can show that will positively prove that the parasites shipped with the chameleons from Chameleon Company. I still don’t even know what the damn things are, but two knowledgeable and reputable bodies are working to solve that mystery. Jim is aware of this, but still pushes for the information. Why do you want the information, Jim? Are you looking for yet another way to attempt to discredit me?
Because that is what this is really about.
It started with a rumor. I had the temerity to ask if the rumor was true after discovering that the animals I purchased from Chameleon Company had low “bone density”. Believe me when I say I regret ever mentioning it. Jim launched on the Chameleon Crusade, headed up by my name. Apparently, I am the embodiment of all that is wrong with the rest of the chameleon community that is treating him so harshly. I am somehow responsible for the rumor itself, responsible for other breeders who he feels treat him unfairly, and the mouthpiece of everyone who is afraid or unwilling to take him on.
Let’s set that straight right now. I am no one’s mouthpiece. I am my own person, and my views and actions are my own.
Jim recently contacted me, and I feel obligated to share that charming email with those who are following this thread.
I think it is best to dissect this email. First this:
Jim wasn’t privy to the phone conversation I had with the gentleman considering purchasing animals from him, and doesn’t know what was said. I spread no falsehoods. I never said that Jim was feeding his animals growth hormone as Jim claims. I told the facts, plain and simple, and then directed the gentleman to this thread.
Now, this is the joke of the century! I am going out of my way to discredit JIM? I think this thread, started by Jim, says a lot about who is trying to discredit who.
Definition of slander: a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
My statements to the gentleman were not malicious or false. This thread speaks for itself, and how the gentleman chooses to interpret the information here is up to him.
I take this as a full admission that his goal is to discredit me. He is very concerned that I am attempting to discredit him, but admits quite freely that he is doing his best to discredit me. Disturbing, really.
This last line is truly the disturbing part.
I think this last statement really says it all. This is a personal, threatening statement of intent, and I take it very seriously. It doesn’t matter that Jim and his buddies, and all of their created names, will be summarily removed from the forums that he chooses to do this in. It is the fact that Jim freely admits that he is willing to stoop to these levels and the statement that makes about his character.
What this whole thread really boils down to is that Jim and I had a personal disagreement. I was unhappy with the animals that he sold me. Things progressed from bad to worse, and the disagreement exploded onto a public forum. When the situation went in a way that Jim wasn’t happy with, he came over here to launch an attack on me personally, and then, more recently, on anyone who supports my view of the situation, real and imagined. Somehow, he believes that many people are conspiring against him. He really is not that important in the theme of things. All the other panther breeders manage to get along. In fact, they often work together to accomplish goals within the hobby. Not so Jim. He stands apart, because, in his own words, “It can be a cutthroat business.” Yes, cut throat is right. Cut throat to the point where Jim is willing to come in “..behind every post you make in any forum, to post as to your character and link to the BOI thread..”
Jim continues to accuse Chris and me of spreading this rumor. The ball is now in his court. Show the proof. Where are the emails where either of us told someone you are using a growth enhancing product? Or, are you just “fomenting” rumor in yet another attempt to discredit people?
I didn’t start the rumor. I didn’t “foment” it. I am the only person to even ask him if it was true. The biggest “fomenter” of this rumor is Jim himself, casting doubt upon his business and his character with his threats of guerilla tactics and his disturbing conspiracy theories.
Get a grip, Jim. You are frothing at the mouth and punching at nonexistent shadows. You simply aren’t that important.
Chameleon Company
New member
Brevity is the soul of wit ..
... which would seem to be lost on a few here. I will let the reading audience evaluate the bulk of your statements Heika, but will highlight a couple that say it all for me:
No, it boils down to you repeating falsehoods to others over the phone (your personal admission to me, and I believe you said such in an email), your posting in thread of the same (documented here), and then your soliciting of a customer to continue the nonsense. I used the customer's characterization and impression of your words and actions.
Secondly, you continue with the nonsense. You are correct that no tests will prove that low bone density traces back to causative agents six months latent, alleviates you of responsibility for the animals while in your care, etc. Lets continue to disregard your earlier evaluations and praise of the quality of the animals. Lets ignore that you judged a female that had been in your care for five months as being fit to breed, and then things went poorly due to that decision. Guess they need better tests.
Ummmmm ... you already documented such Heika. I thank you.
... which would seem to be lost on a few here. I will let the reading audience evaluate the bulk of your statements Heika, but will highlight a couple that say it all for me:
No, it boils down to you repeating falsehoods to others over the phone (your personal admission to me, and I believe you said such in an email), your posting in thread of the same (documented here), and then your soliciting of a customer to continue the nonsense. I used the customer's characterization and impression of your words and actions.
Secondly, you continue with the nonsense. You are correct that no tests will prove that low bone density traces back to causative agents six months latent, alleviates you of responsibility for the animals while in your care, etc. Lets continue to disregard your earlier evaluations and praise of the quality of the animals. Lets ignore that you judged a female that had been in your care for five months as being fit to breed, and then things went poorly due to that decision. Guess they need better tests.
Ummmmm ... you already documented such Heika. I thank you.
ravensgait
Convoluted Member
Heika you said above " Jim and I had a personal disagreement. I was unhappy with the animals that he sold me. Things progressed from bad to worse, and the disagreement exploded onto a public forum. "
Yet didn't he offer to replace them well after his TOS limit?? so that comment doesn't fly.. Hey don't get me wrong here, I think Jim's an Ass but he seems to be an honest Ass and has pretty well backed up what he has said. Where you on the other hand have made accusations and statements and have yet to provide any proof to back them up.
As for giving out the Vet info on these animals IE ""
Veterinarian documentation. I have quite a bit, but it won’t prove that Jim is feeding his animals any particular substance, especially not after the amount of time I have owned them. I can show x-rays of the animals from Chameleon Company with low “bone density”, but what exactly will that prove? How will I even be able to prove that the animals came from Chameleon Company? After all, x-rays don’t show where the animal came from. Anything I add in this respect is simply giving fuel to Jim’s obsession with me. The same goes for the parasites. Yes, there is a problem with them. Unfortunately, the worms aren’t stamped with “Made by Chameleon Company” and there is nothing that I can show that will positively prove that the parasites shipped with the chameleons from Chameleon Company. I still don’t even know what the damn things are, but two knowledgeable and reputable bodies are working to solve that mystery. ""
Well if you hadn't gone off like you did and waited till you had documentation and then presented it in a more professional manner then I doubt many would question your motive . I'm not a lizard person but can't imagine that very many lizard folks can have much faith in you after this mess.
I do wonder if the person or persons who told you the rumors are having a good laugh at your expense IE they got their rumor out and didn't have to risk their own name(names) to do it. Just have to tell it to someone they feel likely will blurt it out and their job is done. Well other than to sit back and watch the fireworks...Randy
Yet didn't he offer to replace them well after his TOS limit?? so that comment doesn't fly.. Hey don't get me wrong here, I think Jim's an Ass but he seems to be an honest Ass and has pretty well backed up what he has said. Where you on the other hand have made accusations and statements and have yet to provide any proof to back them up.
As for giving out the Vet info on these animals IE ""
Veterinarian documentation. I have quite a bit, but it won’t prove that Jim is feeding his animals any particular substance, especially not after the amount of time I have owned them. I can show x-rays of the animals from Chameleon Company with low “bone density”, but what exactly will that prove? How will I even be able to prove that the animals came from Chameleon Company? After all, x-rays don’t show where the animal came from. Anything I add in this respect is simply giving fuel to Jim’s obsession with me. The same goes for the parasites. Yes, there is a problem with them. Unfortunately, the worms aren’t stamped with “Made by Chameleon Company” and there is nothing that I can show that will positively prove that the parasites shipped with the chameleons from Chameleon Company. I still don’t even know what the damn things are, but two knowledgeable and reputable bodies are working to solve that mystery. ""
Well if you hadn't gone off like you did and waited till you had documentation and then presented it in a more professional manner then I doubt many would question your motive . I'm not a lizard person but can't imagine that very many lizard folks can have much faith in you after this mess.
I do wonder if the person or persons who told you the rumors are having a good laugh at your expense IE they got their rumor out and didn't have to risk their own name(names) to do it. Just have to tell it to someone they feel likely will blurt it out and their job is done. Well other than to sit back and watch the fireworks...Randy
Chameleon Company
New member
Randy notes:
Randy, I have customer testimonials, as well as info direct from other breeders, to include a couple who had a hand in spreading the rumor. I know exactly who at least a few are, and it is exactly as I have hinted earlier. I have also asked more than one to "come on down" directly. If you haven't been able to see the laugh I have been having throughout this, here it is:
I can feel the love Randy Thanks.
Randy, I have customer testimonials, as well as info direct from other breeders, to include a couple who had a hand in spreading the rumor. I know exactly who at least a few are, and it is exactly as I have hinted earlier. I have also asked more than one to "come on down" directly. If you haven't been able to see the laugh I have been having throughout this, here it is:
I can feel the love Randy
Thanks.
Mooing Tricycle
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Im seeing such a Pile of doo its not even funny.
Heika, really, all you have posted just SOLIDIFIES what many people now believe, that being, you have nothing to back your statements up.
you keep saying "oh i have this, documentation, and that, and... oh He said she said" SO THEN POST IT. Prove you even WENT to the vet and HAD those tests done. cause right now.... i don't believe a word of it.
Another thing, you say after 6 months things would not be able to be proven if anything was used in the first place, so then... how can we NOT say that it WAS you who caused this problem due to lack of better husbandry? didnt you admit that part already though? ( Bad Husbandry on your part) So then.... why are you still here? because its fun to play on the BOI?
You asked jim for the truth, and he told you no. But Yet, the WAY you asked him for that truth implied that you KNEW he had been doing that to his animals. How did you find out that he was supposedly doing this, and from who? Why not drag those people into this, since they seem to be spreading this rumor as well? Cause frankly... like randy said, i bet you anything they are laughing their butts off right now.
Since you NOW have your answer that NO. he does not use the "growth hormone" on his animals ( and it has been proven it would not do anything significant anyway, and that the only real thing it does is AID in digestion and better absorption of nutrients) answer me this..... why you are still here? and do you even have that "proof"
Heika, really, all you have posted just SOLIDIFIES what many people now believe, that being, you have nothing to back your statements up.
you keep saying "oh i have this, documentation, and that, and... oh He said she said" SO THEN POST IT. Prove you even WENT to the vet and HAD those tests done. cause right now.... i don't believe a word of it.
Another thing, you say after 6 months things would not be able to be proven if anything was used in the first place, so then... how can we NOT say that it WAS you who caused this problem due to lack of better husbandry? didnt you admit that part already though? ( Bad Husbandry on your part) So then.... why are you still here? because its fun to play on the BOI?
You asked jim for the truth, and he told you no. But Yet, the WAY you asked him for that truth implied that you KNEW he had been doing that to his animals. How did you find out that he was supposedly doing this, and from who? Why not drag those people into this, since they seem to be spreading this rumor as well? Cause frankly... like randy said, i bet you anything they are laughing their butts off right now.
Since you NOW have your answer that NO. he does not use the "growth hormone" on his animals ( and it has been proven it would not do anything significant anyway, and that the only real thing it does is AID in digestion and better absorption of nutrients) answer me this..... why you are still here? and do you even have that "proof"
Chameleon Company
New member
Let me take a stab at this ...
Alicia asks:
Because she got busted spreading the rumor again this week. She emailed someone who had asked for info in a forum, asking him to call her. He did, and then he called me. I did email her and told her to stop, lest I have to continue to address her slander every way that I could, ie shine a light on her in every hole she tried to hide in. I posted again here, exactly as I have always told her I would.
Heika, does it take a rocket scientist to see that I want as many people as possible to read here ? I started the thread, and I resurrect it at will so long as Rich allows. I want to keep you in the spotlight so long as you and others continue the BS. I want everyone who heard the rumor via a private communication and gave it merit to look at the person that told them as being of diminished trustworthiness. I don't need to list the few that I know of here, as it doesn't matter. What matters is what people heard, and from whom, and they can weigh that against this thread. I know of no better way to combat these punks.
Alicia asks:
Because she got busted spreading the rumor again this week. She emailed someone who had asked for info in a forum, asking him to call her. He did, and then he called me. I did email her and told her to stop, lest I have to continue to address her slander every way that I could, ie shine a light on her in every hole she tried to hide in. I posted again here, exactly as I have always told her I would.
Heika, does it take a rocket scientist to see that I want as many people as possible to read here ? I started the thread, and I resurrect it at will so long as Rich allows. I want to keep you in the spotlight so long as you and others continue the BS. I want everyone who heard the rumor via a private communication and gave it merit to look at the person that told them as being of diminished trustworthiness. I don't need to list the few that I know of here, as it doesn't matter. What matters is what people heard, and from whom, and they can weigh that against this thread. I know of no better way to combat these punks.
Mooing Tricycle
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Chameleon Company said:
lol i should add "why are you still here, Spreading lies" ^_-
Chameleon Company
New member
One more falsehood, and a re-clarification ...
This is incorrect. I know nothing more than what is in this thread. Neither Dr. Alfonso or I have been told anything of any entities working to solve anything.
Heika, the only obsession that I have been aware of is this one stated by you back on July 23rd, in another thread:
I said it then and I'll say it again. My "16 inch chameleon" is only 10 inches long when he wants to show off, and he will never show off for you ! Get over it.
This is incorrect. I know nothing more than what is in this thread. Neither Dr. Alfonso or I have been told anything of any entities working to solve anything.
Heika, the only obsession that I have been aware of is this one stated by you back on July 23rd, in another thread:
I said it then and I'll say it again. My "16 inch chameleon" is only 10 inches long when he wants to show off, and he will never show off for you ! Get over it.
CurtisF
Look Closer.
4968 views on this thread. I'll go ahead and ask an open ended question: Who do YOU think was more hurt by this thread?
Proof? Are you out there? Hey, it's me again. Yeah, need you for another thread. Feel free to swing on by.
Proof? Are you out there? Hey, it's me again. Yeah, need you for another thread. Feel free to swing on by.
critical bill
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CurtisF said:
Them are some pretty sweet lyrics Curtis. I air drummed it out on my new Wii, without giving my girl a black eye, and it works. All we need is a guitar and some backup vocalists.
LauraB
CLOSED ACCOUNT
Heika 8-8:
There was nothing secretive about it? Then why didn't you just post your transaction experience there in the forum for all to see? Perhaps you simply do not understand the difference. Posting in a public forum is not secretive; emailing an individual and giving out your phone number so you can talk privately IS secretive. I'm certain you don't care at this point, but if it was so important for you to speak privately with that individual, then it's only common sense that you may just have uttered the words "growth enhancer" (not necessarily "hormone"), "worms", "low bone density", etc. And if you didn't utter those exact words, it's a certainty you said enough to cast doubt, paint a poor picture of your transaction and portray yourself as the victim. Common sense also dictates that secretive communication is for nothing more than gossip, inuendo and contrived drama. Besides, that individual already called Jim and ratted you out!
Yes, that whole move on your part was not only secretive, it was another feeble attempt to provide negative feedback in a private, surreptitious manner and to further discredit Cham Co. You can backpeddle all you want; you can twist it any way you want. You tried, it backfired, you failed...and you look even worse now. It would also appear at this point you are the only one with an obsession!
As for all the veterinarian documentation, your convoluted reasoning and arguments are just more evasive backpeddling. X-rays don't show where the animals came from, worms aren't printed with Cham Co, blah blah blah. True. However, your previous emails & forum posts clearly display a frame of mind & attitude that had already decided the origin of your problems and you wanted answers from that "origin". The claim that two "knowledgable and reputable bodies" cannot identify the alleged worms sounds like pure rubbish, especially given it's nearly one month later.
=====================
Quote by Jim:
If that means myself or someone else coming behind every post you make in any forum, to post as to your character and link to the BOI thread, then it will happen.
Heika's response:
I think this last statement really says it all. This is a personal, threatening statement of intent, and I take it very seriously. It doesn’t matter that Jim and his buddies, and all of their created names, will be summarily removed from the forums that he chooses to do this in. It is the fact that Jim freely admits that he is willing to stoop to these levels and the statement that makes about his character.
====================
Are you threatening that Jim and any person who posts on his behalf will be removed from forums he or they choose to post on? That sounds like a statement of intent to me! You have the power to have someone banned from the 4 or 5 most frequented cham forums? If you are willing to stoop to the levels to surreptitiously contact a potential buyer and continue to slander a seller, then perhaps you too, should be banned. After all, what breeder/seller is now immune to claims of worms, MBD, or whatever malady may be contrived 6 months after purchase?
You are correct about one thing though .. it is true no one can prove what you may have said or not said in private conversation. Ironic, isn't it, that you have not proven any of those chams even have low bone density or worms.
~ Laura Bolt
There was nothing secretive about it? Then why didn't you just post your transaction experience there in the forum for all to see? Perhaps you simply do not understand the difference. Posting in a public forum is not secretive; emailing an individual and giving out your phone number so you can talk privately IS secretive. I'm certain you don't care at this point, but if it was so important for you to speak privately with that individual, then it's only common sense that you may just have uttered the words "growth enhancer" (not necessarily "hormone"), "worms", "low bone density", etc. And if you didn't utter those exact words, it's a certainty you said enough to cast doubt, paint a poor picture of your transaction and portray yourself as the victim. Common sense also dictates that secretive communication is for nothing more than gossip, inuendo and contrived drama. Besides, that individual already called Jim and ratted you out!
Yes, that whole move on your part was not only secretive, it was another feeble attempt to provide negative feedback in a private, surreptitious manner and to further discredit Cham Co. You can backpeddle all you want; you can twist it any way you want. You tried, it backfired, you failed...and you look even worse now. It would also appear at this point you are the only one with an obsession!
As for all the veterinarian documentation, your convoluted reasoning and arguments are just more evasive backpeddling. X-rays don't show where the animals came from, worms aren't printed with Cham Co, blah blah blah. True. However, your previous emails & forum posts clearly display a frame of mind & attitude that had already decided the origin of your problems and you wanted answers from that "origin". The claim that two "knowledgable and reputable bodies" cannot identify the alleged worms sounds like pure rubbish, especially given it's nearly one month later.
=====================
Quote by Jim:
If that means myself or someone else coming behind every post you make in any forum, to post as to your character and link to the BOI thread, then it will happen.
Heika's response:
I think this last statement really says it all. This is a personal, threatening statement of intent, and I take it very seriously. It doesn’t matter that Jim and his buddies, and all of their created names, will be summarily removed from the forums that he chooses to do this in. It is the fact that Jim freely admits that he is willing to stoop to these levels and the statement that makes about his character.
====================
Are you threatening that Jim and any person who posts on his behalf will be removed from forums he or they choose to post on? That sounds like a statement of intent to me! You have the power to have someone banned from the 4 or 5 most frequented cham forums? If you are willing to stoop to the levels to surreptitiously contact a potential buyer and continue to slander a seller, then perhaps you too, should be banned. After all, what breeder/seller is now immune to claims of worms, MBD, or whatever malady may be contrived 6 months after purchase?
You are correct about one thing though .. it is true no one can prove what you may have said or not said in private conversation. Ironic, isn't it, that you have not proven any of those chams even have low bone density or worms.
~ Laura Bolt
CurtisF
Look Closer.
critical bill said:
Too poor for a Wii. How about we just go for the PS1
critical bill
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I don't know about anyone else....but I'm really digging this Laura Bolt chick!
critical bill
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CurtisF said:Too poor for a Wii. How about we just go for the PS1
Sure! If you give me about 15 years to track down the kid who bought it from my garage sale. If I remember correctly....I think the kid said something about how he couldn't wait to get back to Lancaster, PA to start playing it. Doh!