Het pied or not?

[bpc]

OK, need a little advice from the "Brotherhood of the Ball." I have a farm raised ball that has a striped belly pattern. I showed it to Ben Seigal, and he said that a striped belly usually meant the snake was het for piebald. I noticed a thread on the BOI which stated people look for the striped belly when trying to decide which snakes out of het crossed clutch are truly het. Ben said the same thing, that you'll (almost) never buy a true het that doesn't have the belly stripe.

So the questions are:

those of you that have proven hets - are the bellies striped?

could this animal be sold as a poss. het based only on the belly pattern?

How much evidence is there to support the striped belly theory?

I have no real interest in breeding balls but I might keep this animal and grow it up until pieds come down to earth and I can get a male to throw in w/ it. But, I'd hate to lay out that kind of money of a hunch.

 

[TJEvans]

?

I have no real interest in breeding balls but I might keep this animal and grow it up until pieds come down to earth and I can get a male to throw in w/ it. But, I'd hate to lay out that kind of money of a hunch.

based on this statement, I don't think it should be sold as anything but a normal. It shouldn't be worth anything more than that based on a "hunch."

just my opinion. i know nothing of pieds, or het pieds. But if you got it as a "farm raised" (this doesn't mean I don't believe you...I just have a problem with that term in general) normal ball python, then that is what it should be sold as.

thanks
Todd Evans

 

[NEWReptiles]

could this animal be sold as a poss. het based only on the belly pattern?

That is a sickening idea. If you did not produce this animal from breeding a pied lineage, then it shoud NOT be sold as anything other than normal.


With this concept it should be ok for me to sell any normal in my collection with these markings as a "poss het ". Would that be acceptable?

 

[bpc]

That's what I'm asking here. Are striped bellies an indication of pied genes or not? If not, where does everyone get the idea that it is?

 

[Seamus Haley]

I always just found it really coincidental that the people who claim that there are indicator marks in het pieds *happen* just by pure random chance, to have a lot of neonates that display this trait up for sale as possible hets.

By the very defenition of heterozygous, there is no significant and genetic phenotypical variation in the animal carrying the recessive genes.

It's entirely possible that there is a dominant genetic mutation that causes striped bellies and also happens to be linked at some point to someone's pied stock... But that doesn't mean every stripe bellied baby suddenly becomes a possible het, just that Pied bloodlines will throw a lot of striped bellies.

Don't even think about selling them as "possibleish hetish for piedish" or any similar garbage either... I personally thought those "pastelish" ads warranted a bad guy thread for misrepresenting animals, but this would just be crossing lines into outright criminal fraud.

 

[bpc]

Ummm guys.... I have no intention of selling the animal. Damn you guys are some sanctamonious sons a .....tchs!

I made an inquiry as to whether or not the striped belly was/or could be used to as a selling point by people. I was given the impression that many people used this condition as a way to determine which animals were the true hets. If you read my post you will notice I said I was thinking about keeping the animal and breeding it later on. I wanted to know if your proven het pieds had striped bellies or not. As, if I plan on keeping it, I will some day need a male, and I want to know how evidence there was to support the theory. Before I wasted money on a hunch.

I have spoken to three people around here about the snake and all recommended breeding it with a pied or het pied male, because they all believed that striped bellies were good evidence of the animal being heterozygous.

Perhaps Seamus, the genes which cause the striping are linked to the pied phenotype. Perhaps that's why I asked!

Perhaps Seamus, animals exhibiting striping on the belly are showing the effects of incomplete dominance, much the same way tiger retics show a pattern mutation resulting from the incomplete dominance of the super tiger gene. Perhaps the pied condition is not as simply recessive as we once thought. Perhaps that's why I asked!

Perhaps, the pied condition is polygenic, and the striping is evidence of the presence of some of the required genes. Perhaps, I wanted to know how many people have proven hets that had striped bellies and how many had proven hets that did not have striped bellies. Perhaps genetics interests me and I wanted to investigate this phenotype a little further. Perhaps that's why I asked!

Perhaps you guys should get a grip on reality, and realize the world does not revolve around ball pythons!

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I have a pair of 100% pieds from Pete Kahl. The male has complete belly stripes, but the female only has partial. I still believe she is absolutely a het as I purchased her from what I consider a trusted source.

I suspect the belly striping is rather like going to Vegas and only betting the 6th slot machine in each row (Or whatever you consider your lucky number). I suspect SOME hets may have this marking, and I am sure some non-hets have it as well (I also have a CH 03 normal with the stripes). IF you have a clutch of possible hets (100% Het X Normal) then maybe the belly stripes help you decide which to keep ~ or maybe you will keep the 3rd to hatch from each clutch........but what ever you decide, I really think it is all just a gamble..............50% of those babies are hets...........which 50%.

As far as your ranched baby.....no, don't sell her as a possible het. She isn't. Keep her if you want, balls are a great snake. Don't keep her as an investment animal. The only investment she will return is if you breed her to a 100% het........she'll throw you some 50% hets.

Good luck!

 

[SPJ]

The belly stripe may help when choosing a het from a clutch. My het female has the distinctive dark black striping. She was produced from breeding 2 100% het pieds. In the clutch was one pied and the rest were possible het offspring. When I went to look at them, I chose one of the females that had the distinctive striping. I knew there was a really good chance she was a het since she was the sister of a pied but the striping just sealed the deal for me.
Does this work as an indicator? Doubtful (especially with CH animals) but I figured it would "help" me increase my odds when I bought my het.

 

[Wilomn]

Completely off the topic of whether or not het for pieds have striped bellies or not, doesn't breeding a 100% het animal to a normal result in 25% not 50% of the resulting offspring being het?

Wes Pollock

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I wouldn't swear to it, but I think the 100% to Normal makes 50% possible hets. The idea being that the 100% het would throw 50% Pied alleles (SP??) and 50% normal alleles. The normal would throw all normal alleles.

So,
Normal
a a
---------l------------------l------------------------
l l
H A l Aa l Aa
e ---------l------------------l--------------------------
t l l
a l aa l aa
----------l-------------------l--------------------------

See what I mean? I think they would be 50% het, but my square could be wrong

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

All that effort to draw that sqaure, and it didn't come out right!

Oh well. I do still think the answer is 50%

 

[NEWReptiles]

.

doesn't breeding a 100% het animal to a normal result in 25% not 50% of the resulting offspring being het?

100% het x normal = 50% poss hets

 

[Clay Davenport]

Just to expand the point a little, the reason the offspring are 50% het is the 100% het parent only has two genes to offer concerning the recessive trait, the dominant "normal" gene and the recessive gene. Every hatchling will have one of these two genes, resulting in each hatchling having a 50% chance of getting the recessive gene.
It's really more accurate in my opinion to say each baby has a 50% chance of being het individually rather than saying 50% of the babies will be het. The latter is not necessarily true, only a statistical possibility.
Imagine you flip a coin 10 times and get heads every time. The 11th toss still only has a 50% chance of hitting tails. Any given toss of the coin has no effect of consecutive tosses.

 

[bpc]

Steve, I'm curious, the striping "sealed the deal" when you were picking your het. Yet when the same striping shows up in a wild bred/captive hatched animal you think there is NO connection? I think everyone needs to remember that ALL these genes ARE represented in wild populations. If they were not we would not have all these morphs. The precentage of representation would be extremly small, but it would still be out there.

These recessive/codominate/incomplete dominate genes which vary from the "normal" phenotype causing genes ARE out there. If belly striping is shown in het pieds in captivity and not in other animals (non-hets), then we must assume that belly striping is "linked" to the genes causing the piebald phenotype, at least in the heterozygous condition. If that linkage can be proven, then animals coming in from the wild with belly striping should be hets as well.

The data I want is this:

Of those of you who have actually produced pied animals USING HETS, did the hets have belly striping?

If you haven't actually produced pied animals yet, (even if you trust your source), your animals are not proven hets.

Additionally, if you have produced pieds from hets, and the hets were striped, was there any correlation between the amount of striping and the size of the pigment free areas on the offspring? I.E. total belly stripe leading to babies which were more than 40% pied vs. partial stripe leading to animals with only small areas of piebaldism.

 

[gmherps]

100% to a 50% at the least will produce 50% het pieds, if you don't get a pied. Then that would mean your 50%er just went to 100%. Now is that always true, no. Sometimes you get a 3 egg clutch and no pieds, but all could very well be 66%ers. That's when you play the same record again next year by breeding the same snakes again. Greg Holland

 

[Clay Davenport]

While the line of questioning is interesting, you're not going to get an answer.
Even if every single proven het pied known had a striped belly, you're still going to have to prove every imported striped belly specimen is also het pied. The latter point isn't going to happen, it's just not practical. There's a great many such specimens brought in annually.
It will only take one of them to prove to not be het and the whole theory is gone.

In the case of choosing a possible het based on the belly striping, that's a whole different thing than assuming a CH ball is het based on that fact alone.
In the case of a known possible het clutch, the gene is known to exist in a certain statistical percentage among that group of snakes. Choosing one with the striping is as much a psychological assurance as anything. Basically saying IF it's true, then I'm increasing my chances.

One other point that hasn't been mentioned. The stripes on the edge of trhe ventral scales isn't the only factor, it's considered a possible indicator when combined with the ventral scales being void of any black pigment.
I've seen many many balls with the stripes, but the majority have a few black spots on the ventral scales as well.
At any rate, proving it to the point that you could say with 100% certainty than an imported ball of completely unknown lineage is het for pied is highly unlikely.

 

[dwedeking]

I think what bpc is trying to say is if you get 50 balls in a shipment. One is showing a trait that he's heard rumor could be a sign of a higher end morph. Does he sell all 50 as normals and not invest the time or does he take this one, find a mate for it and see if it will produce the high end morph for him.

Now, scenario one, is that he takes this "cool looking" snake, invest time and money blindly into breeding it out to see if the rumor is true or...

Does he come on here and ask those with previous experience breeding hets of that morph if they've found this rumor to actually have any truth (and what degree) to it? He asked here because one of the sources of that rumor was this site (I saw the same statement on the BOI).

The reason is not to sell a import as a proven het but rather to decide whether the chances are increased for it to produce the desired morph before you spend the time doing such.

Now, the answer is either "Yes, that is a sign of the POSSIBLITY of the gene being present" or "No, it's not a sign" If it's not a sign then using it as a criteria to choose snake A from snake B from a clutch/or group of imports is an error and a false rumor.

While the line of questioning is interesting, you're not going to get an answer.
Even if every single proven het pied known had a striped belly, you're still going to have to prove every imported striped belly specimen is also het pied.

But if in a controlled group of captive born hets (we know their proven, blood lines etc) you get a proven factor then this would be a signal that breeding this one out would generate a return on the investment. Not a guarantee but hedging your bets so to speak. I wouldn't sell it as a Het (it's not proven) but I'd take a chance on spending time/energy/money to breed it out.

 

[SPJ]

In order to clarify my post I'd say that the striping IMO is one to look for when choosing het pieds from a CB clutch. However, I would not want to take the gamble with an import. Too much time and money would be wasted. The only reason I looked for the trait in the clutch I picked from was to try an increase my odds. I knew there were possible hets in the clutch but when spending the kind of money het pied females command and the time that would need to be put into it, I just felt "more comfortable" buying the one that had the earmark.
Pieds do exist in wild populations and I have no doubt that some imports probably are hets (look what the Barkers hatched from 2 "normal" imports) but I would not want to take the chance without having "more of a guarentee". It was more pychological than scientific in my case. I guess it just eased my mind a bit when spending the money.
Since some hets do not have this trait but some do, choosing one from a 1000 lot of imports may not be the best thing to do when you figure how many years it would take to prove it.

How about this one. Not pied related but het related. I have also heard a rumor that you can pick hets based upon an irregular lateral stripe on the tail. Instead of the solid stripe stopping short of the tip, the "so-called" hets have a break in the stripe. True? I have no idea but I do have one snake that has that earmark as well. Am I keeping him. Yes. Do I think he is a het for something? Nope.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I think what bpc is trying to say is if you get 50 balls in a shipment. One is showing a trait that he's heard rumor could be a sign of a higher end morph. Does he sell all 50 as normals and not invest the time or does he take this one, find a mate for it and see if it will produce the high end morph for him.

If you are basing the entire project on this animal and a 100% het, then no, don't waste the time and energy. If however this import is only a part of a larger project involving hets of both sexes or even better a homozygous animal of the opposite sex, then keep the import and include it into the project. Raising one more ball added to a group isn't any problem, and there's no real risk of loss when the animal proves to be normal, especially if she's female.
In short treat the animal as normal because in all probability that's what it is.

But if in a controlled group of captive born hets (we know their proven, blood lines etc) you get a proven factor then this would be a signal that breeding this one out would generate a return on the investment. Not a guarantee but hedging your bets so to speak. I wouldn't sell it as a Het (it's not proven) but I'd take a chance on spending time/energy/money to breed it out.

I'll agree with that, in a CB clutch situation. My statement was more directed to this comment by Brian

If that linkage can be proven, then animals coming in from the wild with belly striping should be hets as well.

I meant that the conclusive evidence of this blanket application would be very difficult to prove.

I have also heard a rumor that you can pick hets based upon an irregular lateral stripe on the tail.

You're going to hear alot of rumors now that the stripe belly het pied issue has come about, whether that one proves to be reliable or not.
Partially from wishful thinking, and largely I believe to increase interest in hets in general, particularly the harder to sell possibles, males specifically.

I have a black back male from this year with a spot on his neck. I've heard that this is a sign of a het genetic stripe. I'll take $2K for him.
See how easily rumors get started

 

[Audrina Head]

Ok. If a het 'may' show this characteristic, and normals also 'may' show the same characteristic, what's the use of looking for it?
Has anyone done some looking for what percent of known hets show this trait compared to what percent of 'normals' do?