Het pied or not?

[Seamus Haley]

could this animal be sold as a poss. het based only on the belly pattern?

When combined with the entire long thread about selling animals as "Pastelish" just show a repeated pattern where Brian tries very hard to apply additional value to animals.

Yes, they are his animals and he can sell them for whatever he wants.

That doesn't mean he can sell them as WHATEVER he wants. Increasing the price when misrepresenting the animal is fraud, plain and simple.

 

[bpc]

Seamus,

I'll assume for the moment you grew up in Russia.

Now, here in America, one must actually commit the crime before being convicted of it. Please show me where you've seen me selling ANY Ball Python as Het for anything.

Now, for our next lesson in capitalism. Here in America people (often called consumers) will often spend more for animals which look different from the "norm." Because we live in a capitalistic society charging more for "special" animals is ok. The down side to this is that not everyone agrees as to what special animals are. Many people feel that only thier animals are special enough to garner any extra money, and because they themselves have invested heavily in thier animals, they often try to down-play the "specialness" of other people's animals. The truth of the matter is, that no matter what a ball python looks like it is still just a Python regius, a small python.

My argument about the "pastel" ball python was about the use of the word pastel. Pastel is an adjective in the English language and as such can not/should not be used to trademark a phenotype. Pastel is not specific enough, "Pastel Jungle" may be.

To give you an example, one of my students refers to her 4-cylinder Chevy Cavalier as a "sports car." Now many people, (myself included), would not consider a Cavalier a "sports car." If she walked into a convention for sports car enthusists and said, "Yeah, I drive a sports car", she would probably get laughed at when she told them what she considered a sports car. However, if she were to place an ad in the local paper selling her sports car, and someone were to purchase it, she would not be in violation of ANY law. As there is no universally accepted definition as the term "sports car" she can not be held liable for fraud. I still think many, many people call many, many light colored snakes "pastels" every single day. Now at the Brotherhood of the Ball annual convention "pastel" may very well have a set definition, but outside the "Ballcave" Ballman, it won't hold-up. And watch out, the Mite-ler might be after you!

Has anyone done some looking for what percent of known hets show this trait compared to what percent of 'normals' do?

This is what I'm trying to do here. I am guessing there are probably less than 200 PROVEN hets out there. If, out of those PROVEN hets, there is striping present on all of them, I think that would signal some linkage between the two traits. Perhaps it could be even more complicated than that, it could be sex-linked as well, perhaps the striping only shows up on the females. I am trying to look into the percentages, I AM NOT SELLING THE SNAKE SEAMUS!

 

[midnightline]

Knowing nothing about BP morphs, I still do agree that just because a random snake shows a characteristic similar to those shown by hets for a certain trait, does not give the owner license to sell the snake as het for that trait.

Here's an example with cornsnakes...

In general, cornsnakes both homozygous and heterozygous for hypomelanism type A (hypoA) will show fading in the center of their belly pattern. If you have a clutch of corns from crossing a non-hypo to a hypo, picking the ones with the faded checkers will give you a greater chance of picking ones het for hypo. BUT... some normal cornsnakes have similar fading on their belly checkers. These cornsnakes do not carry the hypoA gene, nor do they carry any form of hypomelanism. They just resemble those snakes that do. You could take a randomly-bought normaly petshop corn (or a random WC corn), look at the belly pattern for fading, and still have no real clue whether or not that snake would be het for hypoA. The only way to know for sure would be to prove it via breeding trials.

Anyone who takes a snake and labels it as definite het for whatever based on appearance and no knowledge of the gene in the lineage is effectively setting themselves up for pissing off the customer, as by the time the customer raises the snake up, breeds it several years in a row to verify the genetics, and finds out the snake wasn't het, he's spent hundreds of dollars and wasted years worth of time, and is now very upset with the breeder who sold him that snake as a het. It is better to err on the side of caution than to sell a snake as something it might not be.

-Kat Hall

 

[The BoidSmith]

In MHO it is very simple. Some hetero for piebalds show the striping, some don't, and honestly I don't know if there is enough hetero breedings out there to even guess a 50:50 chance (Which means no correlation at all). There are some normal balls with ventral striping (I had a couple of ringers that had it) but that doesnt't mean they were hetero for piebald.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, it's funny you mentioned ringers. Has anyone breed ringer to piebald? One of the people I was talking to mentioned ringers as well, and he thought the ringer trait was a sign of being het pied as well. He is growing up some ringers to breed w/ piebald and test that theory, but he was still a few years away.

Has anyone here actually produced pieds using hets?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Has anyone here actually produced pieds using hets?

Not that I'm aware of, unless the ringers were CB heterozygous for piebald, which I know for a fact there are out there. I believe Ralph Davis tested ringers with piebalds with no luck at all. Again some heteros for piebald can be ringers, ringer are not necessarily hetero for piebalds.

Regards.

 

[The BoidSmith]

See what happens?

Super Striped yellow belly ball for sale Alabama
Posted on October 09, 2003
Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

I am offering a 2003 FEMALE 128 gram ball python. She has 2 full stripes going down the side of her belly. Her belly also has a yellowish tint. Could she be HET for something? who knows maybe piedbald . I was told she was farm hatched in Ghana Africa. She has some really nice 2 tone orange on her sides. I am asking 1500.00. If you are interested let me know.

There you go...$1,500 for a normal ball python. It seems that it is better to breed normals these days. On second thought buying the breeding stock might be expensive. This one for example costs more than a male 100% hetero for piebald from a reputable breeder.

 

[bpc]

And the problem is....

Alvaro, the "stripes on the belly" and "yellow belly" traits are really hot right now. Why does anyone care what others are selling thier snakes for? If you don't want the snake don't buy it. I really don't understand why some of you guys get so bent out of shape when other people spend thier money.

I had a guy spend 20 minutes looking through every ball I brought to the Raliegh show looking for yellow bellies, so what? He wants yellow bellies; you don't, don't buy any. Someone else wants stripe bellies; you don't, don't buy them. Lots of people spend lots of money on birds (parrots and things like that), I can't stand the noise they make, and as such, would not spend my money on them. But, I'm not foolish enough to think that because I don't see the value in them, no one else should buy them.

The ad you posted makes no gaurantees of the snake being het for anything. It mentioned the same rumors which are circulating thoughout the industry right now and asked if anyone was interested. Someone either will be or won't be, and the sun will still come up tomorrow either way.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, I just noticed Ben Siegal is selling a striped yellow belly for $1200. Is he ripping people off too?

 

[The BoidSmith]

[QUOTE}Alvaro, the "stripes on the belly" and "yellow belly" traits are really hot right now. Why does anyone care what others are selling thier snakes for? If you don't want the snake don't buy it. I really don't understand why some of you guys get so bent out of shape when other people spend thier money.{/QUOTE]

I don't mind if you ask $4,000 for a normal female ball python as the guy on the other thread, as long as you don't misrepresent it When a person suggests it seems it could be hetero for an expensive proven morph he is speculating and trying to lure someone that doesn't know better into buying that snake. The same goes for those that are selling "white bellies" as possibles for any morph in the planet.

Alvaro, I just noticed Ben Siegal is selling a striped yellow belly for $1200. Is he ripping people off too?

Is he saying they are possible hetero for piebalds? I don't thing Ben would do that. So for yellow or other colored stripes he can charge whatever he wants.

 

[bpc]

Even the ad you posted doesn't say the animal is het. It says "could it be het?" Asked as a question. The reason striped belly/yellow belly balls are hot right now is because many people think they are hets. I doubt a striped belly (a trait one can't see while the animal is in the cage) would demand $1200-1500 if there wasn't something to these reports.

I mean yeah, Joe Blow from Alabama might just be testing the waters. But when Ben throws his hat into the ring I've got to think there's something to this.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I mean yeah, Joe Blow from Alabama might just be testing the waters. But when Ben throws his hat into the ring I've got to think there's something to this.

Yeah, the smell of money, it's like blood in the water.
Ben calls the yellow belly "the most promising investment in herpetoculture today".
Merely capatalizing on the craving of others to get into the morph market.

I don't care what they want to charge for these random oddities. They are more than free to appear foolish to all but the blindly hopeful if they desire. You can pay less than a grand for a real het pied male, and in the same amount of time it would take to prove out this wishful thinking you could be producing pieds. I'd call that a much more promising investment.

Now Evans is claiming people are breaking the law by emailing him and saying his idea of pricing is rediculous, and insinuating legal action of all things.

Did you know you are breaking the law by e-mailing me telling me I cannot post the snake for what I post it for. It is called price setting neither you or I can set the price of something. So go away and mind your own business or I will take action against the people responsible.

This is what it has deteriorated to. Putting exorbant prices on anything even remotely unsusual. Morph madness, makes people do crazy things, and paying 12-1500 for anything like that tops it all.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Could she be HET for something? who knows maybe piedbald .

Brian,

I guess you understand what is the purpose of that statement. The person is just trying to seed the doubt in someone that has heard the word "stripes" in association with "piebald". If I was going to gamble I'd probably do it with an orange ringer even without the stripes in his belly (although most of the ones I've seen have them). Than with a striped-belly normal. As for the price, as someone very well put it why gambling when you can have the sure bet with a 100% hetero piebald for the same price?
Again the person that has $1,200 to be spend in a snake it's not the average kid that can be tricked into something. A person that's willing to invest that kind of money has usually done his homeworks and will not fall for that.

Kindly.

 

[bpc]

Ben calls the yellow belly "the most promising investment in herpetoculture today".

Your argument about the cost of het pieds makes sense. But why would Ben charge $1200 for this snake unless he thought there was something to it. I don't think he's the type to just charge that much for a "normal" ball.

I've taken another looked at mine, it is completely striped, but I wouldn't call it a yellow belly. It has one area that is slightly more yellow than the rest but not very much. I think I'll sit on it for awhile and wait to see what pans out.

 

[The BoidSmith]

But why would Ben charge $1200 for this snake unless he thought there was something to it.

Because it is something different, and if people are willing to invest into something different they will go for it. By the same token you could advertise yours as double-striped belly, and it will be OK, as long as you don't imply it's a possible piebald!!

 

[Clay Davenport]

But why would Ben charge $1200 for this snake unless he thought there was something to it. I don't think he's the type to just charge that much for a "normal" ball.

Let's be realistic for a second. Of course Ben would charge that much if he thought he could get it. It's all about profit margin. Ben's a dealer, and the money is what matters.
Anyone who pays more than $50 for a hatchling ball just because it has a yellow belly is foolishly grasping at straws, and anyone who prices them at that is just hoping for someone foolish enough to buy it to come along. If it doesn't sell, you won't see an ad titled "Yellow belly ball reduced", it'll just be sold at a show for much less.

I don't know what exactly the yellow belly is supposed to possibly indicate, but you did mention being hets. Even if it was supposed to be het pied, a person is an idiot to drop $1200 on a hope and a prayer. True 100% known hets are cheaper. This suggests to me that het pied is not what they are "supposed" to indicate.
Ben's not trying to rip someone off directly, he's just trying to turn a rather large buck on ansnake. That's what he does turn a buck on reptiles. He never said it was het for anything, he left that up to the imagination of the buyer to figure out why they are supposed to be "the most promising investment in herpetoculture today." I still can't figure out the logic behind that statement.

 

[W.Wedeking]

Anyone who pays more than $50....

As a hobby AND a business most of us are focused on different. If you talked with my father we're all damn fools paying any amount of money for a snake or a lizard no matter the genetics.

Pricing in this hobby is 95% based upon what the consumer would pay. If everyone agreed that Piebalds were blah and boring then the price would fall to what normals are. So if your going to fault anyone, fault the buyer(s) who is usually (not always) looking for a cheap way to get into the high dollar morphs (my personal opinion) as they set the tone of this market.

I agree the mention of hets in the above mentioned ads are misleading and only there to push the sale. This would be true even if they offered it the price of a normal so the issue of price is irrelevant.

 

[dwedeking]

Arrgghhh!!!!!

The above post was by me not Wendy.

 

[screamdreams]

I really don't like Baseball...

but I'm going to watch it tonight instead of throwing in my 2 cents...but before I do that...I have to say I hate when people say people get "bent out of shape" when it comes to modern day BP prices. Sure, the morphs are gonna cost us...no problems there, the animal, the breeder, and the hobby in general all benefit...even the consumer may to do very well with his/her investment, with experience, patience, proper planning, and a little luck. What bothers me is all of the BS ads. GET REAL!!!!! I've gotten into it way too many times, and there is always a small (very, very small) group of people who tell me to back off, it's not my place to "price" other people's animals...well, you're right, but all I can say is I truly hope the buyer (which it rarely seems like these animals sell because they ALWAYS show back up on an almost daily basis month after month) does his homework...because although it may not be my business or place to bitch about it now, it WILL be when the person that got burnt decides to get out of BP's, or becomes reluctant to buy from smaller named breeders, or to pass on future internet purchases, or even worse...get out of the hobby in general cuz' ONE #$@%wad wants to play the ever more popular "NORMAL Ball Python Morph Game" which is seen by 99% of the hobbiest for what it truly is...a crock of #$%#. PERIOD!!! Don't tell me what I can or can't rant about.

Now to the visual het drama, not proven...I agree w/ the majority here...not enough evidence for me to jump on the whole thing (might be my loss) but I'll take that chance. Now, as for the yellow bellies that Ben had posted, there's a very interesting story to these, and IMHO I think they may have excellent possiblities. So his asking price is "cool" in my book, and that again is only my opinion. IN NO WAY are my comments above directed towards his ad. He's legit, and has proven himself to be a good guy in the industry, and I must stress, I have ZERO problems w/ reputable people selling animals at whatever prices...it's the %#^#%'s that pop up out of nowhere w/ some BS ad, with BS animals that we all KNOW are nothing more than farmed babies, that may have "stuck out" in a lot of 100 (usually their first 100 lot) and with that being said...every single time a seller of this caliber has been questioned about it, they have some lame excuse like..."well, it looked like a Pastel" or "I'm new to BP morphs", or "I was told it was an Axanthic"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ARGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get the hell out of my internet!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't play with the big dogs...get off the porch!! And now...to the world series...lol!!
Late Ya'll

Here's a pic of a normal...stare at it for a second...now it's a Pastel Jungle...stare at it a little more...now it's a Ghostish, Pastelish, Polka Dotty, Super Blushing, possible het Pied (unsexed)...and now a little longer...it's a normal again.

 

[screamdreams]

Brian...

after I read my post I thought you may think it was directed towards you...it's not. I see where you're coming from as well, and your questions are justifiable and make good conversation. My reply was intended for all the "gamers" that seem to pee in my wheaties every now and then so forgive me if that's how it may have sounded. Thanks Bro.