High School Grant, $3000...HELP!!

[vferra7777]

Call me????

We saw some more post today. I cannot give out my students names, but my home phone is 804.763.4443. I am intersted to see who will call and who will not. We have read the latter posts and understand what you are trying to say, but look at it from our point of view, most of us are new at this and we know there will be problems, ever see the first zoos, and we will try our best to observe them but do animals NOT die everyday in the wild or get eaten by other predators? That is a true world. A utopian society has no social, economic or predatory worries which by definition is impossible on this planet. It is hard to watch death as it easy fulfilling to watch birth but both need each other to exist. Would you teach of God but not the devil?

 

[vferra7777]

Past projects

For anyone curious, we have received a few grants before for science related projects. Here is one from a Biology grant in 1999 if you would like to check it out? The project ended a year early because of a construction problem when all the power was cut off during Chritsmas break. Over 60 eggs were destroyed as were 75% of our breeders and hold backs. Accidents happen and animals die. We were all very upset over it but accidents happen.

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/mcdaward/

 

[hhmoore]

So, again, you are back to the acknowledgement that animals are going to die. The part that disturbs me is that you just accept it when, with a bit of effort and forethought, it can be avoided. And you speak of teaching god and the devil (...ahem...) you have been saying public school thoughout the thread...THAT is a good way to get yourself into trouble. There will be no talk of God in public schools, that has been made very clear. I PM's you with an offer of assistance, I feel no need to call. If you want it, I am a few keystrokes away.

The project ended a year early because of a construction problem when all the power was cut off during Chritsmas break. Over 60 eggs were destroyed as were 75% of our breeders and hold backs. Accidents happen and animals die. We were all very upset over it but accidents happen.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? neither you, nor anybody involved, had any inkling that the power would be cut during the break??? Nobody thought to verify this, or make accomodations? And you have the nerve to post this information and just shrug it off, after what has been said on this forum so far? I may have to reconsider my offer...your cavalier attitude both enrages and disgusts me.

 

[vferra7777]

Mistake

It was bad, but what would you me do? Quit my job? End a program that really got many students excited and into their school and educational opportunities? Kill myself? Apologize to all humanity and high school age studenst everywhrere? Live with Jane Goodall and devote my life to that which i destroyed? So few of you are actually a source of knowledge let alone inspiration that we all think fauna is completely worthless. And those that spend all their day cruising this site to spit out their condemnation on amatueurs you have the pity of 16 year olds. just like you probably were in high school. Those that replied that way we say a very sarcastic, "thank you!"

 

[RosterImposter]

Well I can see that you would really like to have that grant, and you have already accepted animals will die. So, in light of this, here are 3 animals that work great together if they are housed appropriately and fed accordingly. Baby red ear sliders, fire bellied toads, and fire bellied newts. You should be able to get 1" sliders since it is for education.
This has worked for me and have not had any problems, but if they are hungry , the toads will try and eat the newts, so if you keep them fed they should be fine.
Also, a VERY important thing is to make sure they are all reletively the same size, it would be pretty bad if they werent.
I know you said NO snakes, but green tree snakes and anoles also get along quite well, I never had any problems with them. I always fed them on time and on a schedule, so if you do the same, you shouldnt have any problems.

 

[hhmoore]

Spare me the theatrics. Quite simply, a bit of forethought would have prevented that entire scenario. IF you are serious about all of this, you are a sorry excuse for biology teacher...and I thank the powers that be that I was exposed to better.
(picture the door slamming as I exit this thread)

 

[Junkyard]

This is pathetic, you really see animals as nothing more than something to study. The thought that you are willing to state that animals die everyday in the wild, that is what I would expect from someone who does not care about the health and well being of animals. Your little world is not to sentence the animals to death (as that is how you see the wild anyway). You do not care if they die.

You called us teenagers, yet you are acting like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum. Your sacrasim and childish display of disgust over us wanting the best for animals is pretty low.This is what I wrote before I shortened my last post.

You are not reading this anymore, so I will reply for others to read.

Funding in school is tough, yes we are aware of that as many of us here have dealt with under funded schools and the difficulties that can happen.

First, I have not started the project nor have I purchased any animals. I was allowing my students to research animals that according to environmental factors MAY be able to co-habitat. Then they were allowed to trim that list down to animals that either piqued their interest or just fit the environment.

Are you aware that some animals can carry a disease without any problems to them, but introduce a different species of animal, than the two may pose a health risk to each other.

I came here with my students, they are here now, and are actually writting this post in the first person, to ask advice. We do not want to kill any animals especially in a public school setting that will be heavily scrutinized by those that "dish" out the money (Please do not read anymore into what we type than what we type). We are trying to learn about animals, ecology, interaction, adaptation and all the other categories of biology.

We are trying to teach you and your students about proper care and responsibilities involved with owning animals. Apparently, you could care less.

We would like advice that would help us do the project the right way.

Did you not read what we posted?

Mr ferraiolo, our teacher, said this along with kingsnake.com would be the place to go for expert advice. The people on here are really no different than are fellow 16 year old classmates. You ask for help and all you get are people talking about you behind your back (you know some of you are) and NEGATIVE criticism that accomplishes nothing. My name is Jennifer and I honestly cannot believe professional adults have written what they have written when we just asked for help.

There is nothing negative said behind your back, we have been upfront and honest the entire time. Jennifer, do not take it so personally, life will only get worse for you if that is how you take constructive critism.

If you really want help, than go speak to someone who specializes in importing wild caught animals and poaching. I am sure they will have a few ideas for you.

Many here specialize in captive breeding of animals, they do not want all their hard work going straight down the drain over a high school project that imposes a risk to the animals they spent so much time and money on.

I have been a high school teacher for 10 years and I have never had any group of students behave the way you all have behaved when we just asked for advice.

Liar!

You mean to tell me it is impossible to keep any two different classes (amphibia, reptilia, insecta) in the same ecosystem without one perishing. MOST of you have been completely worthless and a terrible embarassment to us. We will continue on our own and figure it out locally through Off The Ark and Noah's pet stores. THEY actually made an effort to give positive contructive advice.

Of course the stores have been helpful, they want your money. They see you as a potential sale.

If this has been worthless than you are not learning from us, are you? I truly hope at least one of your students is smart enough to see the problem that we see.

No, it is not impossible to keep different classes of animals together, but it is not a bright idea also. Think about it, do you want to be stuck in a cage with a buffalo, alligator, and a tarantuala that you cannot get away from.

To those that have actually helped us, we say thank you. To the others there is nothing to say besides you make most teenagers look better by example.

Thank you. Remember who came here to ask for advice and then became upset over it. Please do not come here and throw a fit over your new knowledge. If you are truly upset all I can say "the truth hurts, doesn't it?"

You want a real world project, then provide each of your students with a reptile, amphibian, insect, or mammal and have them properly take care of it. Have them learn about the proper care and husbandry, locality of the animals. The anatomy, reproductive cycle, facts, and myths that go along with each animal.

To place different animals together so you can play "god" is sad.

Harold wait up!! I am running through the door with you.

 

[Cat_72]

At least animals in the wild have a chance to escape death, they aren't locked in an enclosure while people wait for them to die.

I'd like to know what the heck you hope to accomplish by this God-play besides teaching the kids that these poor animals are expendable for our amusement. My teachers and mentors always taught of the VALUE of life.

Michael, PLEASE hold that door for me too....

 

[hhmoore]

Well, since the door was not allowed to slam, I took another look in...and opted to add a few thoughts. You referenced some of the problems zoos had when initiating their displays, and you are correct - animals died. But in most cases, that was before the accumulation of knowledge which we now have available to us. Why do you feel compelled to re-invent the wheel? to re-make all the same mistakes that that others made when there is simply no need to? Take advantage of the progress that has been made in this field over the past 25 years. The information is out there.
You want your students to be excited? to be interested in a project? Try one that doesn't set them up for failure. How about creating a habitat with creatures that actually LIVE? Think about the difference...working with a project in which all the animals die because you did something stupid that they could not recover from vs working with one in which the animals thrive and prosper...live out the school year, and maybe even go home with some of the students at the completion of the project (lest they be baked when they turn off the AC during the summer, or die because there was nobody to feed/clean them).
And as to the terms of the grant...I'll admit that I am somewhat inexperienced in that area, but don't you have some say in that? Usually (at least with the ones I have been exposed to), grant monies are available, and awarded to people/groups based on their proposals. I would be willing to bet that you didn't include your nonsense about inevitable deaths in yours. AND, just in case the terms of this particular grant were spelled out by somebody that just didn't know any better, how about formulating an educated counter proposal...illustrating the problems inherent in the current terms, and offering viable alternatives. I mean, if you were serious when you said that

killing even arachnids is not something you can do in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

, I would think that the emphasis should be on keeping the animals alive. Certainly. the benefactors of this grant would agree.
Now, I think I will once again take my leave

 

[Karen Hulvey]

We do not want to kill any animals especially in a public school setting that will be heavily scrutinized by those that "dish" out the money

If you mix any of the species that you are contemplating mixing, then YOU WILL KILL ANIMALS. What part of that are you not comprehending?

We would like advice that would help us do the project the right way. All we are asking is that someone out there has been able to keep at least 2 different animals together in the same cage/environment for a time without stress or death.

I believe I've already answered that question but I'll copy & paste it for you again since you seem to have trouble with reading and comprehension: The only thing I've done is mix several species of geckos such as golden geckos, white line geckos and Bibron's geckos together.

Mr ferraiolo, our teacher, said this along with kingsnake.com would be the place to go for expert advice. The people on here are really no different than are fellow 16 year old classmates. You ask for help and all you get are people talking about you behind your back (you know some of you are) and NEGATIVE criticism that accomplishes nothing. My name is Jennifer and I honestly cannot believe professional adults have written what they have written when we just asked for help.

Exactly how is giving the advice that you've been given "talking about you behind your back"?

I fail to see the negative criticism and the only reason it's accomplishing nothing is because you fail to believe what experienced herpers already know. MIXING SPECIES IS BAD, BAD, BAD and only asking for trouble.

I have been a high school teacher for 10 years and I have never had any group of students behave the way you all have behaved when we just asked for advice. You mean to tell me it is impossible to keep any two different classes (amphibia, reptilia, insecta) in the same ecosystem without one perishing. MOST of you have been completely worthless and a terrible embarassment to us. We will continue on our own and figure it out locally through Off The Ark and Noah's pet stores. THEY actually made an effort to give positive contructive advice.

How in the world have "we" behaved badly? Just because you didn't get the answer that you wanted you're crying like a little baby. The informaiton you've gotten is not worthless! Let's see, Off The Ark and Noah's Pet stores are what??? in the business to SELL ANIMALS. If some of your animals die, well that's just more business for them, now isn't it? Ironically I work at a pet store and every single teacher that has been in there has been, well, really, really uneducated when it comes to animals and reptiles in general. One teacher kept her corn snake in the same cage with her California kingsnake despite me telling her over & over & over that it's a mistake and bad things are going to happen and eventually did. Of course you have no idea why you can't keep a corn & a king together, now do you?

To those that have actually helped us, we say thank you. To the others there is nothing to say besides you make most teenagers look better by example.

Please, I'll never give out misleading advice, even if it means losing a sale. If you're getting advice that is agreeing with what you want to do, then it's 100% WRONG!

If any of you care to see how it turns out (please do not respond because we will no longer answer anyone from this forum back. You will be wasting your time) you may go to sciline.net, click on biology and see our project unfold.

Yeah I'd tune in just out of morbid curiousity and maybe to get some of the names of the grantees so I can give them an email as to what you're planning to do.

It would have been nice if someonme would have just contacted us and said..." you know, it is not very alluring BUT I have been keeping anoles and house geckos together

I already told you what can live together above. And anoles and house geckos are a far cry from tarantulas, frilled dragons, mice and tortoises. You really don't have a clue do you?

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Why in the world would I want to call you? You've already proven that you do not want real advice, you only want approval for what you're going to do and you're never going to get it from me.

 

[vferra7777]

Advice

To "Roster Imposter" we say thank you. That is all we wanted was some good advice, not condemnation. We haven't decided on any animals yet and have not "set in stone" our groups. We just threw them out there. It is a teaching philosophy called brainstorming that I am trying to teach.

For those that do not know, brainstorming is just saying what comes to mind outlaud (what came out and what you saw came from 16 year olds who have little knowledge BUT have Cable {Animal Planet, Discovery channel etc.}. So, whether right or wrong, we are following what is taught. By analogy, this is a way they may try to fix problems in their own lives. Anyway, we throw out what is said, they liked those animals, and then go to people with more knowledge on the subject. This could be parents, clergy, guidance counselors, teachers but in this case was fauna as well as some local breeders/pet stores in Virginia.

Hopefully, we will learn a bit more, alter our hypotheses and move on to an eventual experimental group (the control group will be nature) to see interactions or lack of interactions as well as gathering data from what we see or can empirically measure (that would be weights, number of offspring, amount of Oxygen consumed relating to metabolism versus amount when kept separate etc.).

I cannot take the animals home with me over vacations or weekends. That would go against the grant, so we have a quandary. We thought a problem to us would be a solvable riddle to some of you. Instead we got what the kids assumed would be typical answers from problems that they would get from their parents. Very little helpful advice and allot of condemnation about lack of planning and the like without really asking questions before.

Does this sound familiar to those with teenage kids. Why can't we just have somebody ask a bit more detail about what we have already done, what we would like to do and what we ultimately do. We can't post everything here, we do not have time and the kids are not allowed to go on line at home because of anti predatory concerns. We are not experts by definition (it's a class project) and would like constructive criticism like "impostor" and Wyatt gave.

Please keep you parental tones for your own kids and be the professionals we thought you were and help us. If you do not, we still have to do something associated with the original proposition. We have to give monthly reports to the foundation and biannual major write ups. These kids do not often get this chance. How many of you had this opportunity in high school Carte Blanche with $3000? I personally do not want to hurt any animals nor let my kids, their parents and our community down.

How many of you criticise public education? This is partly why public education tasks few risks? The public is very close-minded about many things such as creation, abortion and ANIMALs. How about some actual help and follow up as we go? that would be nice.

 

[Junkyard]

If you were kind enough to respond in an adult like manner instead of childish, this would not have escalated like it did.

As far as being away for vacations and weekends, if you keep animals that need to be fed on a daily basis, than someone needs to be their to feed them. Maybe if you had way to feed them machanically on a timer, that may do the trick for you. Keeping crickets or meal worms in a side pocket, the door opens and pushes food into the cage, or stays open until a person closes it, that may work. Even have a few of them that will be used once every 3 days, that way you can have a seperate door used once and the animals will be fed over the weekends. Just make sure it s filled before you leave.

Having the cage heating and lights on a timer will save a lot of time and work. Just make sure you have a thermostat being used so the animals do not get too hot or too cold

 

[NdIndy]

Why not try something a little more proven like a terrarium? You should be able to mix fish, tree frogs, water frogs, newts, crabs, live plants... all in a single environment, and with proper selection everything should co-habitate fairly well.

To go totally out on a limb, when I was a kid we kept a green anole and a small green snake (unk species) in an aquarium together for a few years. If it must be repilia you're keeping, I'm guessing that small cricket eaters in a large enclosure with plenyt of food might be the safest bet. But this is in no way the voice of experience speaking, just a bit of brainstorming myself.

 

[vferra7777]

Follow up

The project is coming along well. We have gotten some great ideas from all kindsof people. to all of them we say, "Thank you." Here's what we have so far. PLEASE keep in mind that we will be alert as to size and interspecies stresses. When or if those do appear, we will adopt the animals in question out, I cannot sell them ethically, and get smaller ones or just not replace them.

In the moist cage we have;
<ul>
<LI>Gargoyle geckos
<LI>Crested Geckos
<LI>Pink Tongue Skinks
<li>Mountain Horned Dragons and/or smaller chameleon species
</ul>
In the dry cage we have;
<ul>
<LI>Marbled, fat-tailed or Africa velvet geckos
<LI>Sulcatta tortoise
<LI>Frilled dragon
<LI>Pink toe tarantulas
</ul>

PLEASE, keep in mind that we will orient body sizes and microenvironments to make them happy and stable. IF there is a problem, we have already gotten a list of students that will take over care of the animals and people that will trade for smaller versions so that they all "match" up well. I will get a good misting system for the animals to drink over weekends or vactaions and we have two custodians, they are in the school every day even Sundays and over vacations, that volunteered to help feeed, mist and whatever else we need. I will probably just transport both to my house over summer break.

If there is anyone else out there with contructive critism, please feel free to post here but the best way to get in touch with me and my students is at 804.426.3526 or mail to Vinny Ferraiolo.
These environments have not been made yet and no animals have been purchased yet so RELAX we are still in the research stage. The cages should be up and the animals should be purchased by April 2006. At least, that's the plan. As always we will post progress on www.sciline.net thank you, Vinny

 

[Otter_23]

I can't seem to find the results of this "experiment". Did it not work as planned?

 

[O2 Plastics]

I can't imagine that it did work as planned. The fundemental experiment was deeply flawed. They were attempting to create a little "world" where unrelated species could actually live and thrive throughout their lives. They ignored the nature of the animals they were planning to place together and their only concern was replacing larger animals with smaller ones. In effect, the only true "successful" result would have been that: Yes, I am capable of keeping "baby" animals alive in the same enclosure for a limited amount of time. The fact that they *must* switch out animals should have told them that the end result could only be failure. That immediately tells me that they are practicing bad science. The fact that they/he completely ignored the hundreds of thousands of years of collected experience found here doesn't reflect well on the potential findings. I applaud the attempt at getting his kids interested in how animals live, but using a different method would have been nice.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

I couldn't find the results from Vinnie's "Project Playing God" but I did find out a lot of other interesting things about Vinnie. Check out his websites. Very educational. (~extreme sarcasm there~)

http://www.sciline.net/project/classpets.html

He wants to advertise his birthday parties to children at school. He will donate a tarantula complete with set up to a classroom in trade for being able to place brochures in the area and possibly send the brochures home with the children emphasizing their (paid $150 an hour) birthday parties and other educational shows.

http://www.sciline.net/project/teacher.html This is about Vinnie.
He says he does autopsies on animals. . It's called necropsy on an animal, autopsy on a human.

He gives free medical exams and/or treatment to reptiles at his pet store. Isn't practicing veterinary medicine without a license illegal???

Read some of the stuff written in Vinnie's "My Pet Store" site. http://twobytwoanimals.com/_wsn/page5.html
It says leopard geckos need UV light but they do not know if monitors need it.

He also recommends cali-sand because it "dissolves in the GI tract of reptiles". He says you can't use mulch, even on blood pythons, because the snake may get pieces lodged in their mouth.

Scary but he also does venom extraction of native species for the students. He calls copperheads and cottonmouths poisonious.

This is a teacher who says he was educated at Purdue University yet he is unable to use the proper terms for a venomous animal and doing a necropsy.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

We found a local pet store (Off The Ark Exotic Pets) that will buy/trade any animals that either outgrow our world or just don't fit.

Since I perused Vinnie's sites I know that this pet store used to be owned by Vinnie. Now Vinnie has his own pet store in his house and sells at reptile shows.

 

[Junkyard]

Actually, the pet store is owned by Vinny today, here is a news article about him and the Off the Ark pet store. As you can see, the article is dated April 13, 2006. There is a picture of Vinny in the article holding what looks like a Dumeril's Boa.

The Animals Are Off the Ark and in the Pet Shop
By Elliott Fausz
Apr 12, 2006, 13:43

Vinny Ferraiolo and his wife Cathy have recently turned what was once just a hobby into a well-structured business. It was just a dream at first, but they have worked hard to make it into a reality. "It’s great, because now we’re doing what we both love [working with animals]" said Vinny Ferraiolo.

The Ferraiolos opened an exotic pet store in the Water Tower Shopping Center on Ironbridge Road on March 31, just outside of Chester. They have been in business for about 3 years but not to the public. Until the recent opening of their pet store, they only conducted business online and with local pet stores. They would breed various reptile for pet stores and care for them until they reached maturity. Ferraiolo began to realize that the pet stores he sold to, made large profits off his animals. This got him thinking as to why he couldn’t start his own pet store; after all, he was doing all the work with the animals. Then one day he was riding down the road and saw a store front for lease; next thing he knew, he was signing the lease.

Ferraiolo has always had an interest in animals. He majored in biology at Purdue University and now teaches biology at Thomas Dale High School. He has been handling and studying animals for over 20 years.

As for the business side, Cathy Ferraiolo handles most of that, and also "keeps me in my place," Ferraiolo humors. She is also well skilled with all the animals that "The Ark" carries.

Not only do they carry a wide range of reptiles and amphibians, they also host a summer program teaching children about the biology of the animals and carry out different experiments. For example, this summer they will meet at a local park and take a walkabout to study various animal traits. And if you’re looking for something different at a school function, birthday or cub scout meeting, the Ferraiolos are open to bringing reptiles in to give an up-close look at exotic species and demonstrate ways of milking and feeding snakes.

Off The Ark Exotic Pets carries a number of creatures from around the world, such as bearded dragons, monitors, geckos, all colors of corn snakes, ball pythons, boas, tree frogs, turtles, chameleons, giant "rolly polly" bugs from Africa, scorpions, tarantulas and many more. "At some point we would like to breed all of our animals," Ferraiolo said. For the most part they breed all of their animals, except for the few that they have to import from other countries. They also have in stock of all the supplies needed to care for these animals. If you already have any of these animals and have questions the Ferraiolos love having visitors to talk to and share stories about the critters. You can also visit them online at www.offthearkexoticpets.com or pick up the phone and call (804)717-2282.

Off The Ark Article


Hmm, makes me wonder a bit.