How do we increase the integrity of the BOI?

[Glenn Bartley]

Rich,

You seem really worried that the BOI is not up to snuff based upon a small handful of people who tell you it is a joke. You are considering implementing (note I only said considering) a plan that may loose users for this site.

You also said that one of the main reasons you do not agree with the idea of a few users to charge a fee for the classified sections is that you feel free classifieds are one of the core reasons people come to use this site.

Ok, that is all well and good.

Yet, when fauna user says that he sees a possible problem on the Classifieds Forums and gives a concrete example you tell him:

If you think there is a problem, please, add up the total number of threads in the classifieds section and give me a percentage of the number of threads you consider to be a "problem". If it is better than 5 percent, then I will look into it.

Now that may be well and fine for him to do; but something is really wrong with that scenario - especially if you are the classified advertiser who gets harassed. You are basically snubbing the classified users when you say that. Not even one should be harrassed therein. Of coursde if you note someone doing something unethical in that section, you should shut down their ad, but otherwise why bother them or let someone else bother them. That kind of stuff belongs in the BOI or under General Business Discussions, not under someone's classified ad! This is probably one kind of thing that makes the BOI look like a joke to some. It is also something that will surely cause people not to post classified ads on your site if it continues - and this all whether or not the person this time around was justified in psoting hwt at he posted in response to the ad. The thing is, this dealer will tell the next and so on, until it snowbals and you loose them as advertisers. The BOI is the only BOI that there should be on this site. When you try to force too much of a good thing
into a small container and turn on the heat, it can then either ferment or just get rotten, but you will have no control at that point. Why stuff more than the usual ingredients into the classifieds?

The BOI is supposed to be the place! The place to make inquiries, to post good guy threads, and to post bad guy threads, and to possibly post about questionable business practices in so much as they seem a scam. The General Business Discussions forum is there to question or discuss business practices for the most part. Why bother to have the BOI in the first place if people can question, or point out dealers right in the thread that contains their ads? Why bother to have a classified section double as a junior BOI since you already have a BOI? Why make such a big deal about the integrity of the BOI, when the integrity of the classifieds sections has now been put at the same risk as that of the BOI? Hasn't the integrity of the BOI also become more at risk because now people will not even need the BOI to pose their inquiries? Why should they bother with the BOI if they can get ther point across right in the dealers very advertisement?

You pigeon holed everything into the forums where things belong but; now the rats (yes they have gotten in) will have chewed through from one box to another, if such is allowed to happen on the classifieds. For now they are pretty much controlled in the BOI and in Hell. One thing you can make a pretty sure bet on too is that, such posts as the example given by Sputnik will only multiply with time if not controlled now. A pigeon coop that receives insufficient protection from rats, will only result in a pigeon coop infested by them to the point where the problem will soon be almost impossible to get rid of unless you get rid of the whole coop (sorry about the analogy to a pigeon coop on a herp site). By that time, the pigeons will have flown the coop...

As usual, just my opinion, and of course, meant only as some things to ponder.

Keep up the good fight,
Glenn B

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Sorry - I forgot to edit the above for spelling corrections...

 

[WebSlave]

Thanks for the input, Glenn.

 

[WebSlave]

Concerning the issue of replies to classified ads...

After some reflection on this issue, I decided to compromise a bit. What I have done is to enable registered members posting ads to be able to open or close their ads to replies. This way it is optional depending on what the individual poster wants to do about the reply situation.

This makes it YOUR choice when you post your ads.

 

[turtlepimp]

Webslave,it's alot to take in.
As far as integrity?Not sure what you are looking for?

For years,this site has been the threat to every dirtbag out there.I Admin TurtleTimes,and on our classifieds I take a special approach to moderation.If there is a complaint,I lock the acount,move the ads (if any)to a mod forum until I figure out the particulars.Generally its a DOA or a sick animal,but sometimes it's a complete hose job(money for nothing).When it comes ban time the only thing I can ban is a ISP based account.Hotmail,MSN,Yahoo,are basicall untouchable.I can still lock the username,but as Prem Avanti has shown me,you just re-register,and your back in buisness.Than I get to play detective on whos' who.Got more important things to do.

But Fauna BOI usually gets the job done if the offender actually carrries a buisness license.Just the treat of it.It does little for Hillbilly Bob who's out poaching Eastern Boxies in Vermont.But you cant be everything to everone.

The biggest odd taste in my mouth is competition.Not my cup of tea.I've always held fast the idea that no site needs to compete with another,but realize that members are gained and lost based on personality conflicts with others.All big sites experience growing pains based on newcomers who either have no idea of the general attitude of the site in which they have just joined.Or they just want to wine about a DOA snake they just recieved,and it's up to you to get thier money back.

In my opinion,the best way to improve a site is to find your niche(calling out the dirtbags)and let it grow based on why people come here in the first place.I'm a turtleguy,which pretty much makes me a pig farmer in a land of cattle ranchers,but I know my place.

I like this board and link to it often.I get the classic"has anyone bought from?"alot on Turtletimes.Check Fauna first is generally my reply.


Andy Sury Turtleguy Extrordinaire

 

[brucestephenson]

Most people I talk to that know about the BOI are sure that it is a good concept in theory, but in execution it is just a clique site where the moderators protect their personal favorite posters, such as the long term members, the goody two shoes types, and the big advertisors.
However bad this sounds, knowing what I do about human nature and intelligence from being in the reptile hobby serious since 1978, and being a health care professional for 18 years, I do not think it could be executed much better. Human nature is what it is, which is usually based on the lowest common denominator on the internet.
I prefer to write in the HELL forum, where I have more freedom of expression and encourage other hard core free thinkers to do the same until the moderators crack down, or something better comes along.

 

[brucestephenson]

By the way Turtle Pimp,

Turtle breeders are the ELITE of the reptile world!

 

[WebSlave]

it is just a clique site where the moderators protect their personal favorite posters, such as the long term members, the goody two shoes types, and the big advertisors.

Pure BS, plain and simple. If ANY moderators here did that they would be out so fast their heads would spin. Myself included. I would just abandon this site and it would be gone.

So if you can show me ANY evidence of this, please do so.

Big advertisers? No such thing on this site. So again, show me where you see this happening. Anyone who believe that advertising on this site is protection from criticism on the BOI will have a severe surprise coming to them.

So again, show me. That goes for any of the "most people you talk to" as well.

If necessary, I will create a whole separate forum to discuss this.

 

[brucestephenson]

They don't want to be named because they are afraid of what you could do to their business. Another major complaint is that one person will post on the BOI that the business person or hobbyist is a rip-off and the others will pile on the victim in a bandwagon effect, so these people who tell me this hate this site.
I realize that this is unpleasant and hurtful to hear, but I assure you that this is at least the PERCEPTION of some of those I have spoken to about the BOI. The majority of hobbyists I know have never heard of this site when I tell them about it.

 

[Wilomn]

They don't want to be named because they are afraid of what you could do to their business. Another major complaint is that one person will post on the BOI that the business person or hobbyist is a rip-off and the others will pile on the victim in a bandwagon effect, so these people who tell me this hate this site.
I realize that this is unpleasant and hurtful to hear, but I assure you that this is at least the PERCEPTION of some of those I have spoken to about the BOI. The majority of hobbyists I know have never heard of this site when I tell them about it.

Pretty weak there bruce.

I think that about sums it up. Pretty weak indeed.

Oh what the heck......

So, what you are saying then is this: somewhere out there in the vast world of herpers are ALL these businesses who are SOOOOOOO afraid of what Rich and Fauna will do to them if they DARE state their opinions that they elected YOU to be their mouthpiece so long as you DID NOT reveal their names? Do I have the gist of it here? There are people out there who are NOT scumbags, folks that are on the up and up, who are good for the reptile world in general as well as in specific, people that are not ALREADY on some sort of bad guy posts here and THESE people TELL you how they REALLY feel?

Wow, look out Ann Landers. bruce is become the confidant of those in the herp world who cannot or will not stand up and speak for themselves. These MUST be some major players. Are any of them named bruce or sal or ken? Maybe jon or chris? Any of the STAND UP folks you got this information from have those names.

Sheesh bruce, talk about a lack lustre cadre' of companions.

It does seem that you are saying that these folks who won't allow you to tell us their names have ALREADY been the focus of bad guy threads. Is this true? Are known bad guys crying to you about how they "hate" this site because they are the true "victims" and they got all beat up over here? Really?

Well, you just go right on speaking for all those poor people who can't speak up for themselves because Rich is so vindictive that he would do all in his power to ruin their businesses. By the way, what Rich are you referring to? The one who owns and runs Fauna is just not that kind of guy. Look at all the crap he's taking right now just from you and you're still here and he has done nothing to stop you. He has given you that free 50' of rope that comes with every membership though. What have you got left there? About 5 more feet? Well, just a couple more twists and you'll have that noose all nice and ready.

"don't want to be named because they are afraid" HA, more like don't want to be named because you made them up.

 

[brucestephenson]

There are a lot of folks out there that you and I have never heard about. Nobody asked me to write these things, and I do not know any of the people you have mentioned. Rich asked for opinions and information, and I gave him what I have.

It took a lot of courage for me to write what I have. I knew it would likely be unpopular with the membership and with Rich. If Rich wants to ban me or asks me to voluntarily leave, then I will do so. It is his website. This is the last post I will make on this subject, unless their are extenuating circumstances.

 

[WebSlave]

They don't want to be named because they are afraid of what you could do to their business.

That has got to be way up there among the most assinine things I have ever heard. I believe you, and them, are mistaking me for someone else.

I have never done a single solitary thing to attempt harm to anyone's business. At worst, I have posted about people who have done such things as passing bad checks to me personally, or relayed circumstances that I considered to be ethically questionable in their dealings with me. But even those have been few and far between, I do believe. But you, or anyone else, is welcome to prove me wrong about that.

I suggest that the people who would say such things have never really been to this site and only parroting what some other people, most likely determined by circumstances shown here to be bad guys, have complained about concerning this site. And to them, I am simply stating that they have reaped what they have sown.

And Bruce, your making such anonymous claims such as "he said" or "she said" are patently in violation of the rules of using this forum. Those are considered as third party anonymous statements and are not allowed here.

And honestly, what the heck could I do to anyone's business anyway? Not sell them cornsnakes? Yeah, THAT would hurt them for sure! Except for that, I am at a loss to figure out what in the world you are talking about. I rarely even post anything about anyone that has exposure on this site.

As far as people hating this site, well they are certainly free to do so. I try to give everyone here as much freedom as possible in choosing what they say and do. Freedom to leave and go somewhere else is certainly their option as well, and I would be the last person to stand in their way. I doubt it is any real loss to me anyway. I certainly did not start the BOI with the hope of becoming universally loved by everyone in this business.

So Bruce, please call all of these anonymous friends of yours and ask them to dredge up even ONE name of a person who I have personally treated unfairly, or caused to be treated unfairly on this site. On this site, or in any other manner, at any time. Just one. Certainly that should be simple to do if they feel so strongly that I would purposely attempt to harm their business. Certainly there must be some sort of history they are relying on for this sort of impression of me, wouldn't you think?

 

[Glenn Bartley]

The following points made by me are my opinions on this matter:

I prefer to write in the HELL forum, where I have more freedom of expression and encourage other hard core free thinkers to do the same until the moderators crack down, or something better comes along.

Are we really supposed to take seriously the thoughts of someone who wrote this. You say you have more freedom of expression in the Hell Forum and therefore prefer it to the BOI, yet you want people to receive more moderation from the moderators on the BOI! Is that circular reasoning or just ridiculous self serving BS? To boot, you prefer the Hell Forum! From what I have seen the great majority of posts on the Hell Forum are immature rantings of people who have personal grudge matches against one another. They appear to be the kind of posts that young children would make, the kind in which a child would say: ‘you are a poo-poo head’ and the other child would reply ‘ no I am not, you are’ and then they just continue to go back and forth like this for hours, or days, or weeks or months. You may have more freedom of expression in that you can post just about any trash you want in the Hell Forum, but at least on the BOI people who participate often encourage the main participants of each thread posters to show some sort of proof. It seems, at least to me, as if you are saying you prefer a forum in which there are no holds barred so to speak, but yet a forum in which most people would not become involved because all it amounts to is a grudge match forum. Is that the 'free thinking' of which you speak? You seemingly encourage other so called 'free thinkers' to join you therein. Are you trying to form a clique in a place where you can act immaturely, make things up at will, and use your imagination not the facts to bad mouth someone, and hold non-stop grudge matches? In fact it was created, if I understand correctly, as a place to which the immature rantings and grudge matches could be removed so that they would not clutter up the BOI or other forums. Now you seem to be saying that this is what you want to see on the BOI and that this type of thing is better than the BOI. I think you have some gall, not courage, to come here and fault the BOI for anything with the argument you present.

Then others, who did not have the same point of view as you, posted their replies to what you wrote about the BOI. They posted in a rather intelligent discussion of the issues that you brought up. Your reply was almost immediately, in my opinion, decide to play the virtual martyr in an apparent bid to seek the sympathy of others.

It took a lot of courage for me to write what I have. I knew it would likely be unpopular with the membership and with Rich. If Rich wants to ban me or asks me to voluntarily leave, then I will do so.

Oh woe is you, it is a terrible risk you took posting here, the monsters may get you now (sarcasm fully intended). I think you mistake unpopularity with disagreement. Others disagree with you, that does not necessarily make you unpopular. Yet you would make it seem such – to what end I wonder! Do you seek sympathy, I think so. At the same time that you apparently seek sympathy you also play, in my opinion, your words so that no matter what action is taken by Rich Z in response to your posts you could later appear to have been in the right (or at least you would be able to present the outcome as such). As I see it, you write very carefully so that dependent upon whatever Rich Z decides to do in response to your words (even his doing nothing) you will be later able to point out that Rich's response shows that you were in the right (no I am not saying that you are in the right, just that I believe you are manipulating your words to make yourself the good guy here no matter what the outcome). You see if Rich Z decided to ban you (which is, in my mind, absurd of you to even have suggested) it may appear to others that he had something to fear in what you said so you must have been in the right and this whole site and the BOI is just what you said it was. On the other hand, if Rich Z does not ban you, you can try to use that to advantage to show that you were in the right as you said something so truthful that Rich Z was too fearful of the truth of your words to take any actions against you. So your assertions must have had truth to them because Rich Z has not dome anything to you - Rich Z did not ban you despite the fact that you were fearful that he would do just that. Come now, some growing up maybe in order - this is not the Bush/Kerry debacle.

You also try to make it look as if it took some great amount of courage to post what you posted, and to make it look as if you had your membership in faunaclassifieds to lose by posting. Whom are you trying to kid? Courage to post on the BOI – what could happen for posting on the BOI? Could the boogie man get you for doing so, would your pants go on fire for doing so, would a moderator in a brown shirt beat you up for doing so, or would you suddenly lose lots of herp related business for having posted here, or is it that you worry someone else (an anonymous someone else at that) would be hurt in their business? That whole thing about anonymous people voicing their disgust with the BOI almost made me puke. I am truly getting sick of the whole ‘I know someone who said this, but out of fear for the well being of their business I will not divulge their identity’ type of thing. Of course as I see it, none of these adverse actions would be the result of your having posted here, and I think you know you and your anonymous sources of malcontent have nothing to fear by posting here except for discussion of the issues. First of all you likely are familiar enough with this site to know that you would not be banned for expressing your opinion in a civil manner. Second of all, heck you likely would not be banned for expressing your opinion even in a vile manner, but would rather likely get points for doing so. Third, you do know all of this already - don’t you? You have ten points already, but have not been banned yet have you? Then again, before being banned you would likely be fined anyhow. So why the big melodramatic production to make it look as if you were offering yourself up for slaughter? Why even suggest the possibility of you leaving the site voluntarily or of you being banned unless you were seeking support in the form of sympathy. The integrity of the BOI is something that has been discussed throughout this same thread by others. Now, tell me who among the naysayers of the BOI in this thread has been banned for expressing his/her opinion in this thread. I don’t think you will find that anyone has been banned solely because of expressing his/her opinion about the BOI. You did nothing out of the ordinary that would require expulsion from this site from what I can see, at least not in this thread. Yet you have found it necessary to expel yourself from this thread at least right in the middle of the discussion of the points which you yourself raised up. Now I can understand bowing out of a discussion when there is nothing else to say, or bowing out of the whole site when you are so diametrically opposed to its tenets as to be a hypocrite to continue using it, I have done this myself. Yet you bowed out right when people asked you pertinent questions about your point of view. This is certainly not, in my opinion, courageous! So again I find myself wondering: Why would you make yourself out to appear courageous, and then take the easy way out? Why would you cause yourself, or even expect yourself, to be treated differently than other posters in this thread? Why would you apparently portray yourself out as some sort of a virtual martyr when no one is throwing virtual stones but only discussing the issue that you raised? The answer to all those questions seems to be, at least to me, that you were seeking attention for yourself in the form of sympathy for your point of view! If you look in a really large dictionary (one that includes not so nice words but real words nonetheless – you know words that some probably like to use in the Hell Forum) you can find sympathy: It is located somewhere between sh-- (poop) and syphilis, but I can assure you – you are not finding it here!
Sincerely,
Glenn Bartley

 

[Sasheena]

I've been coming to this site for a year now, and I've seen a lot of things. I have not seen what Bruce mentions, and I read EVERYTHING even though I don't respond to everything.

1. I've seen people who were known "good guys" have that knowledge go sour and they became known "bad guys".... they were part of the "clicque" if that means they took the bad guys to task through their posts, ferreted out the lies, and generally were respected as good guys... until they were discovered in their own bad dealings. I've seen them treated with a little more nastiness than your "everyday" bad guy because it is human nature to be more mad at someone who breaks your trust over a long time, than at a stranger who breaks your trust at the get-go.

2. I've seen a lot of good guy posts. (hallelujah, there are still good people out there).

3. I've seen "regulars" who have lost the respect of some through their relentless (and perhaps obsessive) pursuit of some "bad guys".

4. I've never seen a bad guy thread STAY bad if the person was (a) clueless and learned their lesson and made good (b) if the poster of the bad thread was the real bad guy (c) If it was a misunderstanding that was ironed out.

5. I HAVE seen the more well known individuals have bad guy threads posted about them. When the "good guy" is REALLY a bad guy, it perhaps takes a bit longer to believe, but I've NEVER seen any sort of post like that, with the proper evidence, result in a "coverup" by the "clicque" here. BAD is BAD and GOOD is GOOD here at the BOI. And YES there are some threads where there are two camps about what defines a bad guy and what defines a good guy... which leads to the purpose of the BOI.... gathering information so that the individual preparing to make a purchase can make it based on THEIR own specific definitions of being a bad guy. If half the people here think making a venemoid is bad, and half don't, and I was looking to purchase one, it would really depend on MY opinion of such practices. (I prefer colubrids).

The Board of Inquiry, being that it is all about human behaviour, and is contributed to by people from all the shades of black and white and gray of goodness and badness, is as full of integrity as it is possible to be. YES there are mistakes. NO, Rich does not vindictively attack the businesses (how could he?) of those with whom he disagrees. Sure he has his love bombs, but that's IT.

Saying that there are no NAMES.... that's just a cop out. I, like Rich, would LOVE to see quoted threads from this site that demonstrate this so-called clicque-ism and unfairness, and would especially like to see proof that he is out there vindictively damaging businesses.

If you mean the guff about kingsnakeS.com then you are of course entitled to your opinion. (why not say so though?).... I frequent both singular and plural kingsnake sites. I'm ALMOST talking to myself at the kingsnakes.com site.

In any case, this site is NOT what you say that other unmentionable people say... at least not until you prove it to me.

Again, I've only been here a year. I'm more of an observer than anything. I've had a few deals go bad. In one case I was the bad guy, I sent a couple of digital cameras and one died enroute, and I didn't replace it with a live camera.

 

[Gary O]

I think I am a perfect example that Rich does no such thing. I made a post that many many know about. And I did not receive any warning points. I was never banned. I was never edited. Also I was never asked to not post my feelings. Rich talked about it and it ended in a good way IMO.

So Rich playing favorites. I am not so sure. There may be members here htat do this. There may be members that will back another no matter what.....................

 

[Vince]

well Bruce if what your saying is true, and rich is the dr doom of the Internet reptile world by destroying business and giving people he doesn't like the boot, then how do you explain me even posting on this site. true i haven't been the most level headed person with some of my posts and have directly and publicly directed aggression to the owner of this site. yet i am still here, still part of this community and still buy and sell via faunaclassifieds.com. instead of banning me and making me dwell on my mistakes he allowed me to return and learn from them. There will always be bumps in the road for each and every one of us. this site is strict but totally fair!

 

[HerpVenue]

it is just a clique site where the moderators protect their personal favorite posters, such as the long term members, the goody two shoes types, and the big advertisors.

Wow I have never heard such bigger stinkier bull in my life.
You are all fair game to me.
Go ahead and give me exaples where the advertisers or the long term postes got away with stuff.

Neil is or was an advertiser here. Did not stop anyone from talking bad about him.
Reptibid is or was an advertiser here. Does not stop anyone from talking bad about them.

I brought on two examples...can you think of one?

They don't want to be named because they are afraid of what you could do to their business.

Let me get this straight since I am of feeble mind.
The people we "show favoratism" too ...does not want to b e named because we would ruin their business?

HUH!?!?!?!

"I am Rich's favorite...don't name me....because he would turn around and ruin my business."

HUH?!?!?!?!?!

 

[HerpVenue]

Another major complaint is that one person will post on the BOI that the business person or hobbyist is a rip-off and the others will pile on the victim in a bandwagon effect, so these people who tell me this hate this site.

many times someone puts up a complaint about someone else....
and it backfires on them.
WHY?

Because we see right through them.
What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.

So that arguement went out the door.

Many times someone would complain about receiving a sick animal.....
Then they turn around and sell it as healthy.
So your arguement goes out the door.

Sounds too me like you keep company with the people who are "questionable" in this hobby.

That is definately worth keeping in the back of ones head.

 

[SpindleHead]

The integrity of this forum is in direct correlation to the integrity of it's members. If the people who post here are without the board is without. There will always be bad apples in the barrel, and there are some overly zealous "good guys" neither of which is the rule rather than the exception.

I think wholesale deletion of posts would detract from the good that comes of seeing the way in which some respond to criticism or adversity. When faced with adversity the way in which you react is all too telling. It is not an exact science and there are always exceptions but the ones thought to be liars and scammers are usually just that.

Like many have said a fee may be counterproductive as you would most certainly alienate many of your current members. I wouldn't be opposed to it per se, but I am mostly just someone who lurks and may post a little. I am not infering as if anyone would miss me if I left, nor would they notice but I would be rather unhappy if that were to happen. This is alot like reality TV but with a lot more crazies! LOL

Leave it as is Rich, if there are people who really think this is a joke i'd say they should stay the hell away. How many times do we have to hear "Get a life", "My (insert relative here) is dying, is dead, died and came back to life", Blah, Blah, Blah ad nauseam? If that's the best they can do it's really too damn bad when they get called out.

Keep up the good work.

Chris Marston

 

[Darin Chappell]

I really, REALLY wish I had $1 for everytime someone said the BOI was a clique!

I wouldn't be peddling insurance anymore ... I can promise you that!

If by "clique" one means a group of people sharing the same values in relation to business practices, thereby oftentimes coming to the same conclusions independently of one another, then I guess we are. But if you mean a group of people that gets their marching orders from Rich or one of the mods here, well you could not be more wrong.

Also, for those who think that posters with high profiles and multiple posts are immune from critique ... well, you just haven't been paying very close attention. Ask some who have fallen from good guy to bad guy status (and maybe even made it back again) what they think about such. NO ONE is above questioning here ... I don't care who you are!