How small is too small (personal gripe)

[spyder79]

I keep seeing tons of people posting dragons for sale that are "proven" that are often under a year old and well under 300 grams and 14 to 16 inches. Seems to me its a disservice to the animal to breed them so far before they are ready. Breeding a 10 month old 260 grams female is like a 13 year old girl giving birth, she can do it but its not healthy nor advised because the body isnt fully ready to do it. I just dont get it. 1.5 years, 300+ grams, and 17 inches are the limits in my mind. I would never breed something that didnt meet all of these criteria and I just do not understand those that do. I know this will probably piss some folks off and I apologize in advance if this "ruffles your feathers" but its still a point that needs to be made. Breeding a dragon that is not even close to full grown yet is extremely irresponsible.

 

[dragonluver83]

I keep seeing tons of people posting dragons for sale that are "proven" that are often under a year old and well under 300 grams and 14 to 16 inches. Seems to me its a disservice to the animal to breed them so far before they are ready. Breeding a 10 month old 260 grams female is like a 13 year old girl giving birth, she can do it but its not healthy nor advised because the body isnt fully ready to do it. I just dont get it. 1.5 years, 300+ grams, and 17 inches are the limits in my mind. I would never breed something that didnt meet all of these criteria and I just do not understand those that do. I know this will probably piss some folks off and I apologize in advance if this "ruffles your feathers" but its still a point that needs to be made. Breeding a dragon that is not even close to full grown yet is extremely irresponsible.

So can we be civil in a discussion??? I would like to address this.

 

[spyder79]

yeah go ahead. lol
I think we are fine on any topic other than morphs lmao.

 

[dragonluver83]

yeah go ahead. lol
I think we are fine on any topic other than morphs lmao.

LOL, gotcha!

I keep seeing tons of people posting dragons for sale that are "proven" that are often under a year old and well under 300 grams and 14 to 16 inches. Seems to me its a disservice to the animal to breed them so far before they are ready. Breeding a 10 month old 260 grams female is like a 13 year old girl giving birth, she can do it but its not healthy nor advised because the body isnt fully ready to do it. I just dont get it. 1.5 years, 300+ grams, and 17 inches are the limits in my mind. I would never breed something that didnt meet all of these criteria and I just do not understand those that do. I know this will probably piss some folks off and I apologize in advance if this "ruffles your feathers" but its still a point that needs to be made. Breeding a dragon that is not even close to full grown yet is extremely irresponsible.

Through out the last 6 years i have picked almost everyone's brain that i have bought from. I also asked the same question to everyone i bought from. MOST of the breeders i spoke to say that they actually start breeding at 250 grams. 8 months and up. FOR THE FEMALES... As for the MALES they pretty much breed them when there ready and producing sperm. Some males have breed at 5 months old!.
These animals sexually mature at a much younger age than most reptiles. An most do it because there isnt a problem that has occurred from breeding at a younger age and or size. Also another reason is, MOST breeders have a harder time getting a bigger female bred. Big girls need big boys. First the Male has to be able to reach the females vent and be able to flip her if/when need be to breed!
MY FEELINGS: I think 250 is alittle on the small size. maybe alittle more than alittle. It has/can be done. But i dont like the size of a 250 gram female. Im not so worried about the age and length as much as the weight. A female can be 9 months old and 3-350 grams. or a dif. bloodline could take the female a year to reach 300 grams. So the weight it what seems to be important. IMO A 300 gram female is when I would/do start paring them up with other males. BUT, I wouldnt dis-credit anyone that breeds at alittle smaller weight. It's done alot more than you think!!! As long as the female and the eggs are okay!

 

[spyder79]

I just do not personally agree with breeding an animal prior to it being fully mature (ie its grown). I have a female right now that is 340 grams and 16 inches but she isnt even a year old yet and i know she has a lot of growing left as her line regularly tops 600+ grams and 20+ inches at adulthood. So with her being so far from being "full grown" id see it as a disservice to the animal to rob it of so much nutrients to force her to produce eggs. The reason i feel you should not breed a female prior to being fully matured is because of the nutrient requirements to produce eggs. No matter how perfect her diet is, her body will take a huge toll by producing eggs before she is done maturing, at least as I see it.

What others do is what they do, but in my opinion it is just shy of cruelty to breed a dragon just cause she is sexually mature. I mean a human girl is often sexually mature (ie producing eggs) at 11 or 12 but do you think that she should produce offspring at that age? no. The reason (ignoring the moral and ethical reasons a child that age should not have kids) is because, though able to reproduce, her body just isnt prepared for the rigors of doing so.

 

[dragonluver83]

I just do not personally agree with breeding an animal prior to it being fully mature (ie its grown). I have a female right now that is 340 grams and 16 inches but she isnt even a year old yet and i know she has a lot of growing left as her line regularly tops 600+ grams and 20+ inches at adulthood. So with her being so far from being "full grown" id see it as a disservice to the animal to rob it of so much nutrients to force her to produce eggs. The reason i feel you should not breed a female prior to being fully matured is because of the nutrient requirements to produce eggs. No matter how perfect her diet is, her body will take a huge toll by producing eggs before she is done maturing, at least as I see it.

What others do is what they do, but in my opinion it is just shy of cruelty to breed a dragon just cause she is sexually mature. I mean a human girl is often sexually mature (ie producing eggs) at 11 or 12 but do you think that she should produce offspring at that age? no. The reason (ignoring the moral and ethical reasons a child that age should not have kids) is because, though able to reproduce, her body just isnt prepared for the rigors of doing so.

Ya know, Its just hard to say. I think EVERYONE will have the own opinion. Everyone does things there own way. I know 250 is done, i know some like atleast a year old and 350+ grams.
My question: What age/size does a female dragons body sexually mature?
I would like to hear other opinions by ACTUAL breeders. Or atleast there input on what size or age they breed there girls at?

 

[spyder79]

Female dragons start producing egg follicles at 8-9 months of age. So in essence that is when they hit sexual maturity.

If the "ACTUAL breeders" comment was directed at you not considering me a breeder I take offense to that. Just because breeding is a hobby and not a business for me does not make me any less a breeder than you are Tom. And no im not being pissy with you I am just commenting on what it appears you said.

 

[dragonluver83]

Female dragons start producing egg follicles at 8-9 months of age. So in essence that is when they hit sexual maturity.

If the "ACTUAL breeders" comment was directed at you not considering me a breeder I take offense to that. Just because breeding is a hobby and not a business for me does not make me any less a breeder than you are Tom. And no im not being pissy with you I am just commenting on what it appears you said.

you said it in your own sentence. you breed dragons. its just a hobby.That wasnt meant for you .... It was meant for the ones that buy and sell dragons. I would like replys from people who has personally bred dragons.
So there is no need to take offense.

 

[spyder79]

Like i said, i wasnt pissed just wanted to be certain it wasnt meant how i read it lol.

 

[Ed Clark]

Brian I want my female breeders bigger so they will deliver larger clutches and larger eggs.

A small juvi female that I know some are breeding will give you small clutches of tiny eggs and ultimately tiny hatchlings. its a huge drain on that small female.

I set my minimum weight at 350 grams but sometimes hold out till she is over 400 grams.

My dragons are my pets and breeding too small is not an option for me.

 

[spyder79]

Brian I want my female breeders bigger so they will deliver larger clutches and larger eggs.

A small juvi female that I know some are breeding will give you small clutches of tiny eggs and ultimately tiny hatchlings. its a huge drain on that small female.

I set my minimum weight at 350 grams but sometimes hold out till she is over 400 grams.

My dragons are my pets and breeding too small is not an option for me.

I have never heard of the eggs and hatchlings being smaller. I have heard that the fertility rate is much lower in young females. Clutch size (ie numbers) I do understand though as they just do not have the nutrient stores to produce large clutches.

 

[dragonluver83]

A small juvi female that I know some are breeding will give you small clutches of tiny eggs and ultimately tiny hatchlings. its a huge drain on that small female.

Ed while your theory is somewhat interesting, i doubt very serious that you know this for a fact.(in bold)
SO what i did for you was take a few pictures. (You know me and my pictured proof )
The first picture is from a clutch of dragons that was layed on the 21st of this month. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166204&page=6
Incase you need the post date so you know im not just making this up.
The first picture is a translucent female that weighed 288 grams when bred. (11 months old) Shes is 6 days from laying her first clutch. At 267 grams she lost some weight but if you look at her she doesnt look bad in any way!! She is alert and attentive.Picture 2: She layed 21 eggs for her very first clutch. Doesnt really sound like a small clutch for her first one. Also look at those eggs. at 6 days old. (barely grew at 6 days old) and they do look fairly plump.

I set my minimum weight at 350 grams but sometimes hold out till she is over 400 grams.

Anyone that actually breeds care to share your personal opinion?

 

[dragonluver83]

I have never heard of the eggs and hatchlings being smaller. I have heard that the fertility rate is much lower in young females. Clutch size (ie numbers) I do understand though as they just do not have the nutrient stores to produce large clutches.

There not smaller or weaker. That is much more of an opinion than any kind of fact.
Actually Brian, i think there fertility rate depends on the male more than the female. If a female is going to have a problem it may be a consistent problem that will repeat throughout each clutch. ( I think).

 

[chris allen]

It may be old fashioned, but I prefer just to wait until they are ready....age and size. I have had younger females go(less than a year), but I normally wait until they are over a year(avg 14-16 months), then cool them, then breed them around a year and a half. I have females at 500 grams now, and 9-10 months old that I haven't introduced to a male yet just because they are young. Why rush them?

Also, it's impossible to set a weight because you have to take into account the length of a dragon. I wouldn't compare a 300 gram 16" female to a 300 gram 20" female or say they are both ok to breed because they hit 300 grams. Tom's female above looks fine at that weight, but add another inch or two to her and she would be underweight.

I have also had one smaller female this year lay larger clutches than a couple of bigger females. On the other hand, she is also a bit older(I waited a bit longer to breed her to see if she was going to fill out more). I wonder if her age played a role in her clutch size for a newbie breeder?

 

[dragonluver83]

See i dunno about the age factor. I got a female leatherback and waited to breed her until she was 430 something grams and a yr and a half old. And i got 16 eggs. yea 16 eggs. from a bigger chic. So i wasnt happy to say the least.
Last year she layed one clutch of 16. This year i sold her to make room for one of her babies. Well she ended up producing 25 eggs for the guy i sold her to. so there is some jump between last year and this year. BUT she was a year and a half old. not eleven months. Maybe its just there genetic line? I dunno but there is nothing consistent with ages and clutch sizes. I mean obiviously when there a couple years older they will throw more eggs. but comparing a 1 1/2 year old female with 16 eggs with her first clutch and a 11 month old with a clutch of 21.
As far as breeding age, i dont know. i have a heavy female, but shes 9 months old (pictured) some to most would have breed her by now. I am waiting another month before i pair her up. BUT look at her. She is a huge female for 9 months old. An probly more than ready to have her first clutch. I think 400 grams is in the zone, but her age is not!

 

[chris allen]

Yeah genetics have to play a role in it somewhere. Are you noticing smaller clutches with certain lines or morphs?

 

[dragonluver83]

Yeah genetics have to play a role in it somewhere. Are you noticing smaller clutches with certain lines or morphs?

To be honest, IDK,

I mean for starters, my NORMALS (sandfires, bloods, etc...) are not out producing the leatherbacks, hypo's, translucents, or hypo translucents.

I have noticed a half infertile clutch here and there. After that i get the female bred again to another male. And there follow up clutch (second clutch, third clutch etc....) Seems to be fertile. NOT ONLY THAT, when something like this happens and i cross it to another male. i get a half and half clutch!!!! Meaning the eggs are from the original father and mother, AND the ones that would be infertile come out to be from the male that i most recently crossed that female too.

I have noticed some things with some different lines. Really to much to get into on the computer. But for instance. I noticed that the Belgium line tend to throw more babies. The Belgium line seems to be a shorter stockier line of dragons. And the reproduce nicely. Some barley loosing body structure or muscle when gravid. Also seem to lay more eggs in a clutch and throw more clutches a year.

BUT i think it all goes back to genetics.

You have a female bearded dragon that lays alot of eggs it seems to be passed along. Kinda like breeding for size in a animal. Its passed along. Big animals produce big animals, and so forth.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ed while your theory is somewhat interesting, i doubt very serious that you know this for a fact.(in bold)

Anyone that actually breeds care to share your personal opinion?

Tom you are hilarious!

What ever do you mean?

While your choice is to bred small 250 gram female dragons, my choice is to breed an older more mature female well above 350 grams. there is no great hurry to produce eggs from any of my females I would rather they live a long happy life producing a clutch or two a season. you see Tom... these are my pets not breeding machines.

 

[dragonluver83]

Tom you are hilarious!

What ever do you mean?

While your choice is to bred small 250 gram female dragons, my choice is to breed an older more mature female well above 350 grams. there is no great hurry to produce eggs from any of my females I would rather they live a long happy life producing a clutch or two a season. you see Tom... these are my pets not breeding machines.

Actually if you would read more of the post you would know i actually have mixed feelings. I have bred as small as 280 grams at a year and had/have a 400 gram female that i am waiting to breed because she is only 9 months. I like 300 gram girls that are close to a year, and up! With the amount of breeders i have there is no reason for me to hurry.
An there is no need to b.s. here, were in a discussion. We ALL know these are not your pets. We know this is not your Hobby. This is your way of life. No one is faulting you for living off what you sell. So you can let your guard down alittle and open up.
Were just here wanting opinions of what other breeders think. You have made yours, but now maybe we would like a more accurate opinion, from a breeder.

 

[Ed Clark]

An there is no need to b.s. here, were in a discussion. We ALL know these are not your pets. We know this is not your Hobby. This is your way of life. No one is faulting you for living off what you sell. So you can let your guard down alittle and open up.
Were just here wanting opinions of what other breeders think. You have made yours, but now maybe we would like a more accurate opinion, from a breeder.

My only discussion here is about the proper size of a first time breeding female dragon nothing else. I speak from many years of breeding bearded dragons. in fact I was one of the first few guys to have imported red desert dragons to work with in the early 1990's

So you see I know what i'm talking about when I say that breeding 250 gram females is not the best thing for that undersize dragon.

Your personal attack on me is unwanted and unwelcome in this discussion forum!