How small is too small (personal gripe)

[chris allen]

Ive got a belgian female ready now actually, and she is I think right around 500 grams, maybe she was a little smaller, don't remember....anyways, she's got nice size and the perfect build so I look forward to healthy large clutches like you say then Tom.

 

[chris allen]

I speak from many years of breeding bearded dragons. in fact I was one of the first few guys to have imported red desert dragons to work with in the early 1990's
QUOTE]

I'm a bit interested in this, ED. If you were one of the guys to import Red Desert dragons, what or where exactly did they come from to make them different or even how did they come about having that name? Or, did you work with a particular line that you imported and over time coined this Red Desert term? I've only seen one person, or have known of one person to use that term as their stock and for their marketing. I don't recall seeing Red Desert Bearded Dragons back in the mid/late 90's. I'd like to know more about this.
Chris Allen

Edit....going back maybe I recall seeing Red Desert stuff around 2001 or 2002??

 

[DiamondDen]

Hey all, so heres the thing i have breed females of variouse diffrent size's, the smallest that i have actually gottin eggs from was around 280 grams she produced 22 Perfect eggs, they where nice and big infact they looked better then one of my females who is an easy 370 grams and is around 2 years old, yes she did lay 6 more eggs, but in the end 2 where bad but all have made it so far from the smaller female so there ended up being a 4 egg diffrence, thats not very much, and back before we got out we had a 1 1/2 year old female 350 grams that only layed clutchs of around 13 to 14 eggs, and yes tom is right alot of the reason that breeders start breeding at 250 grams and up is because you need big males to breed big females, now a 350 gram female is no problem, but next year that female could be 600 grams, and i dont know about you but for me my 600 gram females are much more difficult to find males for one of my top breeding males is only around 260 grams(he is still very young around 8 months), i have put 350+ gram females in with him and im not getting anything but when i put 300 down he is able to get them, and yes it dose depend on the dragon, if i feel like the dragon is to small physically i wouldnt do it, i like them to have size to them at the same time, it matters what size they are capable of getting to there are some of the smaller more stocky built dragons that 16-17 in is all they are going to be, so i dont put a length or age on them as tom said im about weight, and how they look physically, i want a nice size head and build and some extra tummy weight nice fat tail base and just an over all healthy look, at the same time there is alot to be explored with what is best to breed and the only way to do that is to try diffrent things and figure out what works for each individuale, at the same time we are breeders and most people may not think we enjoy our dragons as pets but that is not true as tom im sure knows, i have talked to him after recieving dragons and was all giddy and excited, we dont have so many dragons as to the point that we dont get attached to them and we are excited to get each new dragon individually, at the momment i have one of my favorite dragons out chilling with me though he is going bonkers, we are cleaning cages and he decided to dive bomb for freedom then came running over to me and is now wanting to go on the run but the cat keeps running after him so we are playing a cat and mouse game over here at the moment, i am not saying that we get attached to each dragon that comes here but there are specific dragons that will not be leaving us as we grow to care for them for some reason or another, also another reason for breeding young is so they can retire young and go to a family that will hopefully keep them forever and love them, would you buy a 3-4 year old retired female or 5-6 year old retired female? i personally would go for something younger.

 

[dragonluver83]

My only discussion here is about the proper size of a first time breeding female dragon nothing else.

Kinda seems like your basically saying your way is the only proper way. And i am disagreeing. I have not had any problems with any of my ladies when i have choose to breed them.

I speak from many years of breeding bearded dragons. in fact I was one of the first few guys to have imported red desert dragons to work with in the early 1990's

I think i will leave this alone. Especially since Chris asked what is needed to know. Lets not pull anyone's leg here. Remember your talking with other breeders, who knows your past or have heard about it.

So you see I know what i'm talking about when I say that breeding 250 gram females is not the best thing for that undersize dragon.

So tell me the side affects? No one here has said anything about 250 gram breedings. It was mentioned by me that other breeders said this can be done. An is being done because of certain reasons.Please go back and READ the previous post so you can stay in touch with the conversation
Also it just may seem that your methods are out dated and some what old.

Your personal attack on me is unwanted and unwelcome in this discussion forum!

I havent attacked you in anyway. You must be mistake. Actually i have been quite pleasant considering our past, an still holding logical convo. So lets keep it that way.

Ive got a belgian female ready now actually, and she is I think right around 500 grams, maybe she was a little smaller, don't remember....anyways, she's got nice size and the perfect build so I look forward to healthy large clutches like you say then Tom.

. I think you will be happy. I do like the belgium line very much!

Corky and or Jamie,
Thanks for the input.

 

[dragonluver83]

Here's one for you Chris.

I had a female just lay her second clutch. She is two years old. her first clutch was 21 and her second was 17 eggs. Most of the females i have lay a bigger clutch there second time around instead of a smaller one. So two clutches from a girl thats two years old and i only have 38 eggs. Something else to think about when your stirring your coffee in the morning!

 

[HowlinGaleDragons]

i dont know about you but for me my 600 gram females are much more difficult to find males

Corky I can see where it can be hard to get big males I know that all to well several of my females are over 700 Grams my biggest is Lily she is over 1,000 Grams it took me a long time to get big males that would breed well with the females line.


Personally I like big heavy females they seem to handle breeding much better than smaller dragons; I had some smaller females 300 - 350 grams and they had trouble with laying eggs and took longer to recover I hated seeing them like that so I decided to lean away from those girls. I do think in some cases bigger dragons have more eggs for example my red female is 500 Grams she laid two clutches of eggs 24 and 21 all fertile; while my 1,000 + Gram female laid a single clutch of 48 Eggs.


This is a topic that will have many different opinions no reason for any heated arguments to each their own.

I personally do not breed females under 1 1/2 Years old and they have to be 400 + Grams there has been a few instances where I had no choice but to breed a female under my age and weight limit and that was because they laid infertile eggs.

My males are a whole different story I let them breed when they are ready some mature quicker than others the youngest one of males has bred at is 7 Months he was 375 Grams. I had a male that would not even bob at a female until he was a year and half but once he started he was great and never gave me trouble with the girls.

Each Dragon and Each breeder are different so it is a hard to have a definitive Right or Wrong.

Anyway's that is how I feel about this

 

[DiamondDen]

Nicole i think you put it well in saying to each there own, each breeder has there own way of doing things, the fact is if they are to breed dragons to small in the end there is a better chance they will lose out, if something where to happen to the female then if they are lucky they get one clutch, and thats it, that really isnt going to be the best outcome, and for me if at any point in time i breed a smaller female and find that i think it was to ruff on her because of her size then i would start breeding them a little bigger to avoid that, at this time i havent had any issues with my smaller females they put there weight back on just as fast as my bigger ones and do fine laying there eggs, but if that where to change im sure my size would change then, and i bet a 1,000 gram female was a pain in the rear to find a male for specially one that was at the same time a good match, with my males i will let them breed as soon as it seems like they are ready and i have the right female at an acceptle size for breeding, how big was the male that got the 1,000 grammer?

 

[HowlinGaleDragons]

how big was the male that got the 1,000 grammer?

The male that bred with her is 650 Grams he is a fairly aggressive breeder which helped him as she has a habit of beating the males up she chases them around with her beard out my 950 Gram male Romeo (Citrus Tiger) is scared of her.


I know some breeders will breed too young and it makes me sick I am not saying I agree with it I don't at all but for those breeding in an acceptable weight have different standards one might breed at 325 grams and another 400 + Grams.

I wait longer than many breeders (No offence to anyone) because my dragons are my kids I would not risk any of them to something I can prevent.


Education goes a long way but the person must be willing to be educated

 

[Rockinar Dragonz]

I just cringe when I see ads for young small females for sale marked as 'proven breeder'. Why not exercise a little restraint and patience and allow the females to grow out to their potential before breeding? If a bigger male is needed for a larger female, then get that bigger male. We have a few females we'd love to breed right now, but for us, it's more important that they benefit fully from all of their given nutrients and reach their maximum potential size. We don't want to unnecessarily tax their systems before they are fully ready. Just our preference...

 

[jeffwyatt81]

I am still a novice to breeding but have kept many reptile species for 20 years as pets. I had my first 2 clutches last summer 29 and 32 and hatched 58 successfully with a $5 used hovabator the female I bred was 382 grams 3 months or so prior to breeding when I purchased her and I held off until her weight was 427 grams and she had been on my prefered diet with suppliments and a vet check to ensure she was a healthy girl she was also approx 16 mos old when she came into my care and approx 20 mos at time of first breeding(she was a pet before I aquired her and never bred). I currently have 2 females paired with males at the moment 1 23 month 388 gram red sandfire cross and 1 24 month reduced scale orange tiger het recessive leather 441 grams and ready in about a month is my avatar girl OGG x Peach/Sunburst about 30 mos weighing 622 grams a few weeks ago.

Now that I've rambled,IMO I would just like to state that I prefer my females to be atleast 18 mos and I like 400+ grams although I know some females may never get that size, like my sandfire girl weighing only 388 and she is a fatty for her size around 17" but for the most part I prefer 400+ grams. IMO

Jeff Wyatt

 

[DiamondDen]

Nicole, LMAO, thats funny that such a big male is afraid of her, thats great.........but that must have been a prety aggressive male to get the job done, iv had some males that i just wont use because they tear the females up to much, i had 2 that would bite the bottom of there beards and wouldnt ever correctly bite the back of there neck like normal.

To each there own, some go by weight some go by age, length, or a combination of things, iv definitely seen people breeding dragons i wouldnt breed, and i am one of those who is ok with breeding dragons just under 300 witch is on the smaller side for breeding, but is accepted by allot of breeders.

But for the most part iv put my input, if i remember ill check back here, but i dont normally spend much time in the forum's, so if i don't get back to the post well its still active i prob. forgot to check back or got side tracked with something or another.

 

[dragonluver83]

IMO I would just like to state that I prefer my females to be atleast 18 mos and I like 400+ grams although I know some females may never get that size, like my sandfire girl weighing only 388 and she is a fatty for her size around 17" but for the most part I prefer 400+ grams. IMO

Jeff Wyatt

Hey Jeff,

Here's one. i posted a picture of a 403 gram female.She makes your weight approval, but she is HALF of your age approval. What do you do then? Just curious. Then do you go by weight or age or both? (post #15 is the dragon i am referring too.)

 

[spyder79]

Hey Jeff,

Here's one. i posted a picture of a 403 gram female.She makes your weight approval, but she is HALF of your age approval. What do you do then? Just curious. Then do you go by weight or age or both? (post #15 is the dragon i am referring too.)

I cant answer for Jeff but by my standards both.

 

[dragonluver83]

I cant answer for Jeff but by my standards both.

Kinda looking for an answer to: if he has a 400+ gram female and its 9 months old. Then at what age would he breed her.

 

[spyder79]

Kinda looking for an answer to: if he has a 400+ gram female and its 9 months old. Then at what age would he breed her.

Ill be quiet lol

 

[dragonluver83]

Ill be quiet lol

LOL your good

 

[chris allen]

I would wait as well till she was older. Although I did have a female this year get knocked up young....not on purpose though.

I'm not Jeff either,lol, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Rockinar Dragonz]

Same here...

 

[jeffwyatt81]

Hey, sorry for the delayed response I had to run our for a bit. I have yet to have one that young be that big but even still I believe I would wait for optimum maturity of the animal Simply because I am scared of what may happen, I still worry when they are of age/size and healthy as I love each and every one of my dragons, snakes, geckos just the same as I love my dogs and any other animals I may have and would want nothing less than the best and most safe care that I can offer them to ensure all my animals strive and live long, healthy and happy lives.

Thats just me, If I could save every misstreated animal(by my standards) I would certainly do so. Besides I have more than enough females of age and size at any given time so I can wait. I know everybody wants to get a jumpstart and be "That guy" that comes up with the next hot new morph but I mostly enjoy watching the eggs hatch out and see what I'm goin to get because you really never know. I will have all the morphs eventually mine will just be a bit later and I feel more secure when breeding my animals by doing so.

But hey, if you have a 400+ gram female @ less than a year old and want to breed her I say go for it, everyone has their own method of doing things and I feel more comfortable doing my breeding with my animals the way I do it.

 

[dragonluver83]

Hey, sorry for the delayed response I had to run our for a bit. I have yet to have one that young be that big but even still I believe I would wait for optimum maturity of the animal Simply because I am scared of what may happen, I still worry when they are of age/size and healthy as I love each and every one of my dragons, snakes, geckos just the same as I love my dogs and any other animals I may have and would want nothing less than the best and most safe care that I can offer them to ensure all my animals strive and live long, healthy and happy lives.

Thats just me, If I could save every misstreated animal(by my standards) I would certainly do so. Besides I have more than enough females of age and size at any given time so I can wait. I know everybody wants to get a jumpstart and be "That guy" that comes up with the next hot new morph but I mostly enjoy watching the eggs hatch out and see what I'm goin to get because you really never know. I will have all the morphs eventually mine will just be a bit later and I feel more secure when breeding my animals by doing so.

But hey, if you have a 400+ gram female @ less than a year old and want to breed her I say go for it, everyone has their own method of doing things and I feel more comfortable doing my breeding with my animals the way I do it.

I agreed with you except the last paragraph. LOL. I do have a 400 gram girl thats 9 months and i havent bred her for that reason. It really sux having a girl that big, at that young of a age. Shes about 10 months, in another month i will give it a shot.She'll be almost a year. She will probly be 430 grams or so, but i have some good stuff in the incubator. And i have a female thats going to lay from a sweet cross. To be honest, I actually need to get kickin on my normals. I have a few nice males but the females i cross them to are in brumation.