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I wanna know about the Jungle.

crotalusadamanteus said:
Super or Homozygous, not Dominant. Dominant describes a relationship that a pair of genes have at any given locus. So does Recessive (hidden) and Co-Dominant (equally expressed).

Heterozygous means simply, the pair of genes at a given locus are not the same. This would be the normal Jungle. Homozygous means they are the same, and would be called Super or Homozygous.

Just FYI. :D

I'm fairly lousy at picking jungles unless they are blatantly obvious, so I can't offer much on picking a Super from a Het animal.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rick. I got a little lazy with my typing. But, just as a correction from my end, isn't co-dominant an incorrect term? I always knew it to be incomplete dominant.
 
Co-dominant is misused, not really incorrect. Co-dominance is where two or more dominant genes are expressed in the same animal, like salmon jungle or some other combination.

Chris
 
JCCS said:
As far as your boa, Jeremy, it's just not a jungle. It looks more like a BCA cross. I've seen a chunk of animals with that "odd" pattern look, but the saddles aren't "chocolatey" like the true jungles posted, which is probably the biggest marker for jungles. I don't think that your boa is a jungle either, Steve, but I am not so dead certain.

Jeremy, I cannot tell you how much I commend you for using the correct terminology for the jungle gene in incomplete dominant instead of the usual misuse of co-dominant. I thank you, sir.

Chris
Click to expand...

She came from a Jungle to Jungle breeding.
 
I don't think breeding this girl to a jungle male would prove she is a jungle.
If the odds bite the big one and there are no supers, any jungle offspring could theoretically be attributed to the jungle male.
IMO she would need to be bred to a non-jungle male and if jungles are produced, that would confirm her genetics.
I really hope this was not a super over priced normal. :ack2:
The yellow dorsal color and the different side color appear to be Swedish line jungle traits. Plus the seller has a good reputation. Wouldn't be the first time I bought a super expensive pet. :rolleyes:
 
Jeremy, I wasn't saying I even really thought that she was a BCA cross, just that she looked closer to that than a jungle.

Steve, to me, the only way to know for sure that she is a jungle would be to produce a super jungle offspring from her. If you bred her to a non-jungle, her babies would possibly be up for debate, if you have the super, there is no debate. With 25% of the litter theoretically being super, you'd have to have really bad odds to not get a super in a reasonable litter.

Chris
 
JCCS said:
Jeremy, I wasn't saying I even really thought that she was a BCA cross, just that she looked closer to that than a jungle.

Steve, to me, the only way to know for sure that she is a jungle would be to produce a super jungle offspring from her. If you bred her to a non-jungle, her babies would possibly be up for debate, if you have the super, there is no debate. With 25% of the litter theoretically being super, you'd have to have really bad odds to not get a super in a reasonable litter.

Chris
Click to expand...

I understand. I just wanted to throw the parents out there.
 
SPJ said:
I don't think breeding this girl to a jungle male would prove she is a jungle.
If the odds bite the big one and there are no supers, any jungle offspring could theoretically be attributed to the jungle male.
IMO she would need to be bred to a non-jungle male and if jungles are produced, that would confirm her genetics.
I really hope this was not a super over priced normal. :ack2:
The yellow dorsal color and the different side color appear to be Swedish line jungle traits. Plus the seller has a good reputation. Wouldn't be the first time I bought a super expensive pet. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That would suck tremendously ... While she is a pretty animal I wouldn't have risked it because the reverse striping removes pretty much all evidence of her being a Jungle. I know her color is great, but I have seen some awesome colored normals. Without getting it from the breeder with pics of the litter and sire and dam, I would have my doubts.

But I agree with Chris on pairing her with a Jungle male.
 
AbsoluteApril said:
Did you get to see litter pics? I assume there must have been supers but maybe not and that is why you asked about litters with no supers?
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I actually did not ask about litter mates, just about the parents. The original buyer purchased her at a show a while back so she doesn't remember. The reason I asked about these litters with no supers is because this year will be my first year going for jungles, I had expected my jungle breedings to end up like my hypo breedings, I was pretty confident on what to expect. Then I started seeing all of these litters being posted with no supers and thought maybe I was missing something.
 
Well, I didn't want to point out any names, thread posts or links, but I have seen them on fauna and kingsnake. Just to mention one, there is an ad on kingsnake that has pictures of both parents, which neither appear to be jungle, with pictures of the full litter. The litter just consists of what looks like abberant patterned normals. I know there color comes in later, but they just don't look like jungles. Do you want me to PM the links if I can find them?
 
I'll go scouting around, was just curious. I would always suspect one parent isn't a jungle if there are no supers, boas *typically* have such large litters the odds should show supers.
 
AbsoluteApril said:
I'll go scouting around, was just curious. I would always suspect one parent isn't a jungle if there are no supers, boas *typically* have such large litters the odds should show supers.
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Exactly. And its not like I have seen a ton of these litters around. Just a few caught my eye and just made me think. I have been wanting to get into jungles for a long time, before I get started I just wanted to clear up the whole misunderstanding concerning jungles. I am sure this will also be helpful to others looking into breeding for jungles.

In a perfect world, this is what you would expect if I got this right.

Jungle x Normal - 50% jungles, 25% normals and 25% possible jungles, right?

Jungle x Jungle - 50% jungles, 25% super jungles and 25% normals or possible jungles?
 
Co-Dominance is misused a lot IMO. If a gene shows its presence in a single generation its dominant. If it let's the WT also express itself, it can be incomplete dominant or co-dominant. What distinguishes these two apart, is if you get that third phenotype show up with a homozygous animal.

Dominant or incomplete dominant examples would be hypos and jungles. The key word there is possible. When I hear possible super anything I think Dominant or incomplete dominant.

With a truly codominant mutation the homozygous animals will be so vastly different then the normals and het forms that a novice could pick them out 100%. As an example google motley boa and super motley then do the same for yellow belly BP and super yellow belly. If a mutation does not act exactly like that, then it is not codominant.

As I understand it anyway.
 
Rick, I took a couple years of upper level biology. You're close, but not dead on. Simple dominant is where there is no true distinguishable difference between the heterozygous and homozygous forms of the gene, as in hypo. An incomplete dominant gene has the phenotypically evident difference between the heterozygous and homozygous forms, as in jungles, motleys, and aztecs.

Co-dominant is where two dominant morphs "co-exist", creating a different phenotype, as in a hypo jungle or any other combination.

Chris
 
mxracer4life said:
In a perfect world, this is what you would expect if I got this right.

Jungle x Normal - 50% jungles, 25% normals and 25% possible jungles, right?

Jungle x Jungle - 50% jungles, 25% super jungles and 25% normals or possible jungles?
Click to expand...

I would expect:
jungle x normal = 50% jungles 50% normals
jungle x jungle - 50% jungles, 25% supers, 25% normals

The traits I look for in jungles (not all have to be present of course):
'hole in the head' the round hole in the head spear
line of speckles along the top of the lateral
yellow dorsal color with different lateral coloration
large holes in the saddles or abbarent pattern, esp tail stripes
high orange/pink coloration (esp on lats)
red tint to eyes (the supers much more so)
heavy black outline around the saddles, especially near the tail
along those lines, also a ghosting effect from outside of saddles towards the center

When other morphs get in the mix, especially hypo and albino, it can make it even harder to pick which ones are clearly jungles unless they really stand apart from the siblings.

I agree with the other people that have said the more you see in person, the easier it is to pick out.

and just cause everyone is posting pics, here's some old pics of my two. Male was from a jungle x hypo red group (Matt Crabe produced) and female was from a jungle poss het x red group (Brian Logan produced); the jungle parents trace back to PK from the imported stock. I got the male and then chose the female a year later because she looked so similar but unrelated.

terrible photos but all I have. Can't take recent ones until I buy a new camera. these are 2-3 yrs old. I would consider both of these low to mid expression; together in natural light:
JulieKirk709c.jpg


female
RGJungleFemaleSneakPeak5_27_09.jpg


male
KirkinHand4_09c.jpg
 
Those photos show the yellow dorsal coloring I mentioned before perfectly. :thumbsup:
 
Not the best photo but this shows the funky head pattern on the female I posted.

IMG_0670.jpg
 
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