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IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

LOL Dennis,

Just came from that site as well, and grabbed a few examples of where they draw the lines. The allowable limits for rodent hairs is much higher in all cases, but here's some rodent feces limits:

Bay leaves: Average of 1 mg or more mammalian excreta per pound after processing

Cornmeal: Average of 1 or more rodent excreta fragment per 50 grams

Spices, Leafy, other than Bay Leaves: Average of 1 or more rodent excreta fragment per 50 grams

What you also find in other regulations Dan are graduated limits, such that below amount X, its OK for human consumption, between X and Y its OK for animals, and above Y we ship it overseas ... LOL, that's not what it says ... it is still fit to be used as fertilizer products etc. Reminder to others, we were chastized in the other thread for talking about IBD legalities, took it to this 2 day dormant topic about the same IBD and individual. They are still bitching in the other thread about not having much to talk about, it seems.
 
Jim the real problem with your take on Prosecuting someone for IBD is just that word -Prosecuting-. It is really really unlikely that a DA is going to file charges over IBD.. But in a Civil case I don't see it any harder to make a case against Allen than it would be for say. Making a Case for someone selling you a horse that they knew might have Equine Infectious Anemia (Coggins) or Hoof and Mouth in say a Steer. As the premise being was it More Likely Allen knew he may be selling you an infected snake than not. As has been pointed out he knows that there is a good chance his animals could be carrying IBD.

Now saying that other Wholesellers can't prove they don't have IBD ?? In a Civil case who cares if Allen brought it up to defend himself it would be on Him to prove that most wholesellers have animals that carry IBD.

It just has to be shown that he most likely knew.

Now I can't see a jury awarding millions in a case for icky ol snakes but being compensated for losses caused by others happens every day .. Randy
 
Chameleon Company said:
I raised it only as a peripheral point to show that there are contaminants where the FDA recognizes that absolutes are not realistic, and that in the future, statutes and legal defenses will also recognize that IBD can exist where no party was negligent. Am certainly not saying that all IBD will be OK either .... far from it.
Click to expand...
Jim,

There is a difference between selling an IBD infected snake, unbeknownst to either party, and continuing "business as usual" after it has been identified in your animal(s). Comparing livestock to dry goods is well...like comparing reptiles to cornmeal.

BTW, this is why I wash the top of the can before I open a soda... :ack2: :ack2: :ack2:
 
Randy,
I used the word "prosecuted" as a shortcut to indicate civil litigation, as you or I can "prosecute" any cause or case. Here it is from www.yourdictionary.com: a. To initiate civil or criminal court action against. b. To seek to obtain or enforce by legal action. Sorry to confuse though. I don't quite see it as you do regarding the rest of it.

Jim O.,
I certainly understand the differences, but also explained my reasons for mentioning it. Its as relevent as tobacco, IMMHO :D Maybe in the years to come we'll see the serious prosecution of a civil case involving IBD contamination.

I'm a little more leary of cornmeal now myself. 8 fecal fragments per pound is acceptable. Don't know how big a "fragment" is.
 
BTW, this is why I wash the top of the can before I open a soda...
Click to expand...

Jim,

No need to wash them. Just shake them really hard before opening. By doing so all the particles of dust and debris get loose. :D

Regards.
 
Chameleon Company said:
I'm a little more leary of cornmeal now myself. 8 fecal fragments per pound is acceptable. Don't know how big a "fragment" is.
Click to expand...
However big is too big. And I'll be sure to think about that the next time I see a corn muffin. :>Puke<:



The BoidSmith said:
Jim,

No need to wash them. Just shake them really hard before opening. By doing so all the particles of dust and debris get loose. :D
Click to expand...
Is this based on personal experience or scientific study? ;)
 
I'm on the boat with the guys with no real leagal knowledge but feeling free to add my 2 cents. My take on this is as..

1) Allen has not only been informed by e-mail but the test results were posted in a public forum.

2) Allen doesn't remember Ron but remembered everyone else he sold to. Even claiming no knowledge of the yellow biz card that was on his own table.

3) Said public forum has time and date stamps on the posts and Allen has responded since the vet report was posted.

4) Even during his deniability rants was given advice on the proper testing needed yet has either not had the proper testing or has refused to post results. Either of those is a boneheaded thing to do .

5) Allen has continued selling ( biz as usual ) since being notified.

6) In a post on the original thread Allen admits to " quarantining " animals together and I believe someone posted that boas were housed together after the vet report was posted.

7) A good bit of info concerning IBd was posted along with ways to do his own research in the thread after the vet report was posted.

8) Several e-mails have been posted from Allen since the IBD was brought to light along with bits of phone conversation folks had with Allen that when broke down each bit somewhat contradicts the other bits I.E. telling one person that he couldn't find a vet to do the test then telling another he contacted Fl University and hes cool to outright denying any possibility of IBD and everyone is just jealous.

The only thing I'm seeing as a prob in a court case is finding a jury that can be compassionate toward snakes. IMHO , too much info is here for anyone to see after Allen was notified of the infected animal to even consider claiming ignorance on his part. Even tho he may not not have known the litter or however many animals he received was infected, once notified that animals in his facility / facilities were infected that left the ball in his court. His responsibility to contact all of his suppliers and suspend selling animals until it was determined how far the infection had spread and taking appropriat" set " hobby wide but even an idiot can ask advice and figure out what needs to be done.

As for what Allen could do to with the current situation is not an easy task at all. Much easier for an average hobbyist or breeder but from the looks of it Allen isn't even trying to do anything but move animals. It was posted in the other thread that it looked as if he had more critters up for sale now since being notified of the infected animal. I've perused the KS ads and it does look as if the ads are more in number along with his lists being longer. Leaves one to consider if hes dumping or just bringing in more animals. Either way I don't see Allen handling this very well or at all , ethically or otherwise.
 
It does look like Allen is dumping alot of snakes on KS. Very very cheap as I am sure to lure in the guys that haven't read this forum.

Jon
 
mad

Jon Mitchell said:
It does look like Allen is dumping alot of snakes on KS. Very very cheap as I am sure to lure in the guys that haven't read this forum.

Jon
Click to expand...
It seems he thinks he is funny.I just looked at this ad and he says "you will be the talk of your friends if you buy this boy".Yea being told you just bought a possible IBD infected snake :angry: .He also states phone call will be taking over emails,yea so he can flow the garbage out of his mouth :rolleyes: .Here is the ad i am talking about here.
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=456508
 
Isn't it interesting how all the ball breeders are getting rid of their breeders right now, during breeding season?

Oh wait, the HONEST ones are NOT selling possibly infected snakes.

What a lowlife.
 
Chameleon Company said:
Here it is Lloyd. Dan or Jim O. or anyone else that wanted to carry on the discussion/debate about subjects that might be deemed as "NOT REAL" in the other Allen B. thread, give it a go here. Might help to cut-and-paste some things, as I am in the habit of forgeting everything that I learned yesterday. Anyone who comes here with a REAL issue will be advised to go to the other REAL thread ! Between the two, I believe we will have a choice to GET REAL !
Click to expand...

OK, here's a cut and paste of my and Jim O's posts that litigation could be viable, the quote function does not seem to include the posts we quote in ours,but I guess you can cut and paste as well.....


Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
The original poster might have trouble proving negligence due to the difficulty in diagnosis, but now that "the Defendant" :rofl: is "on notice",the negligence case, in the event of a re-occurrence, is much easier.

And just because there has been no further discussion of legal action in the other thread does not mean it is not taking place,the first thing a good lawyer tells a client is to stop discussing the case with others....
Click to expand...


Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
Have there been unsuccessful civil cases concerning IBD? If so, how many? Have there been ANY civil cases brought where it could be proven the seller know or should have know that his collection was infected before he sold animals?? BTW, I've already mapped out the legal argument in the last post, he is on notice of a problem in his collection, it is arguably negligent to sell under these circumstances.

Because, unless there is appellate law that no cause of action exists under these circumstances, the number or lack of successful cases means shit.There were no successful tobacco litigation cases for decades.....
Click to expand...


Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
The parallel is that past lack of success does not impact future success unless it is controlling precedent.Especially if you don't even know if such cases were attempted.

Do you have an answer to any of my questions?
Click to expand...



Jim O said:
An IBD lawsuit succeeding is a matter of time, almost certainly. It happened with big tobacco when they said it never would and convincing 12 "peers" on a jury that Allen knew or should have known that he had a problem and was negligent in handling is written all over this board in a a thread in which he has participated. Proving causation may be the only hurdle, but defending one such lawsuit, successful or not, may put the likes of Allen out of the wholesale business depending on whether he is insured and how deep his pockets are. The third element, after negligence and causation, is damages. Those would perhaps never be collected but it would put others on notice.

The fact that there is no industry standard leaves it open for a jury of 12 to determine. It would, however, be easy to find multiple experts for plaintiff's case, and only a paid whore would testify that what Allen has done was proper. Most jurors can easily see through such an "expert", at least that has been my experience. I'm guessing that the "preponderance of the evidence" (that is more likely than not) would be that Allen knew he had animals that might be infected and failed to take proper action. If this then caused the death or destruction of other animals then that's the case. The fact that it has not ever happened, and may not happen with this individual, does not mean that it will not happen, and have a "successful" outcome. After all, juries have awarded billions of dollars over silicone breast implants and they probably never caused any of the diseases that are alleged.

Bottom line, Allen would appear to be at legal risk whether he wins or loses, should such a case ever arise. Would you want to be "the guy who got sued in that IBD case"?

It is obviously not practical for every boid to be tested. And this is an "industry" that is almost certain never to have "universal standards" for any number of reasons. But in a case like this, where there is a documented case in one of his animals, and knowing what can happen, he needs to do something more than "business as usual" irrespective of whether there are such standards. Moral and ethical standards would dictate that, even absent any financial risk.
Click to expand...


Lloyd Heilbrunn said:
Good analysis, and much more than I was willing to type out on my day off. :shrug01:

Wanna be my law partner??? :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
 
Lloyd,
I am laughing with you here. We're both Florida, EST, and I am beat. I'll give it a look later tomorrow when some time opens up and see what gaps I can fill or comment on. In the meantime, Go Broncos !
 
Spider Death

Well, the spider I got from Allen before I read these threads has finally died. I had been giving him Baytril and a glucose injected mouse assit fed twice a week. Tonight was medicne night and when I picked him up, I noticed he was very bulged in the stomach area, which I thought was from him not deficating, and also in the chest region where it looked like his heart and lungs might be. I could see it was darker in the upper part of his body on his belly so I knew something was wrong. I gave him his baytril and was going to call the vet in the morning but he didn't fight me giving him the meds and he died about 10 mins after giving them to him. I put him in the freezer and will be sending him off for a necropsy tomorrow but I am sure the outcome will be the same as Airtrixx's, IBD.

Just wanted to let you guys know.

Jon
 
Jon, that is terrible news, I am so sorry to hear that you lost him, expecially after all that you have done to keep him going.

Have you contacted Allen to inform him?
 
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