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IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

I did send him an email although I don't expect him to return it. He knew he sold me an animal that was at the very least sick if not contaiminated with IBD. Like I said in other emails, he never ate on his own nor deficated. All Allen wanted to do was have me send it back and him "try to get it going again". I have my fingers crossed that it didn't infect the rest of my collection.

I did read the posts and put him in the fridge before he was frozen. I have always heard to put them in the freezer but I took him out. I am having my vey send him out to a reptile pathologist so I can get the best results possible.

Thanks guys,

Jon
 
Lloyd,
The different levels of "proof being in the pudding" would start with actually walking into an attorney's office, spending more than the initial consultation fee, and maybe even putting down a retainer, and having that attorney get up to speed on the "facts" of the case. As you know, the attorney will raise many of the same issues and "yes buts" in analyzing the different thresholds in the case. Not saying the case can't be brought, and doesn't have a prayer of succeeding. At present, both with Allen and any other similar scenario, I do see it fraught with difficulties. I think that many of your "cut and paste" points were touched on yesterday prior to your post. But on a couple of points:
BTW, I've already mapped out the legal argument in the last post, he is on notice of a problem in his collection, it is arguably negligent to sell under these circumstances.

And arguably not, as he may be able to show that he has quarantined one group from another. I am aware that IBD has managed to spread despite the best of quarantine procedures in hobbyist collections. Point being that the spread of the disease does not necessarily indicate that the vendor did not take "reasonable" precautions, especially a wholesaler of cheap animals. This may be an area that health statutes eventually get a hold of, so that they can be summoned to test at a facility, at random or because of a complaint, and if they find IBD, they then have some legal authority to mandate a protocol. But as of right now, there are no state regs, and certainly not industry accepted ones, for low-end wholesalers. They all have snakes on top of snakes. Whatever steps a vendor may take, the door is still open that they have not eliminated the problem. Somewhere between doing nothing, and doing quite a lot, if the disease still moves out in a sale, a judge or jury will have to decide where the threshold of negligence was, and if it was crossed.

Since individual animal quarantine is still the recommended method, and this being primarily the obligation of the buyer, should it spread from a single animal into many owned by the buyer, the defense will argue that the buyer was negligent for the spread.

I agree that if it can be shown that a seller sold an animal that was known infected, or housed directly with a known infected, its a slam dunk. An easy case would also be the "dumping" of animals rather than attempting any quarantine and control once a vendor is "on-notice". Certainly, anything that can be shown to smack of a very "unethical" approach would support negligence. But there's a huge grey area out there for now, and even in the pretty air-tight of civil cases, 70-30 is often the best estimate you will get of prevailing. Add any smidgen of ambiguity, and down it comes. My opinion is that at this stage of the game, you'd be hard-pressed to get even a 50-50 assurance of prevailing.

Then there's the costs. You may prevail to some percent of your claim, and be unable to get any of your costs covered ..... aka spending $20-30K to win lesser judgement.

It is also possible that a well-heeled plaintiff could bleed a vendor-defendant into some degree of submission. That would only create a settlement, not a precedent.

I would agree that, in-time, things will happen. Just not tomorrow.
 
Jim, I don't disagree with too many of your pointed out difficulties including the comparative negligence. However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case". That issue is irrelevant to the legal analysis unless the "unsuccessful IBD cases" are binding authority.

There is never a sure thing in litigation, but on this one I'd rather be the Plaintiff's lawyer than the Defendant's lawyer......and if the fact situation was changed a bit to involve loss of a high end collection due to similar facts involving a high end and collectable dealer,it would be a very desirable case to bring.
 
Lloyd, agree except for one error ...

You state this:
However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case".

And here is my initial post on the subject, from which you took the above quote:

You would have a lawsuit that would have to show negligence on the seller's part. "Buyer beware" is still rule number #1 where there are no statutes violated. There are no industry standards, especially with wholesalers, that any wholesaler could have been shown to have ignored or violated. There's another thread in the BOI where a buyer of higher-end boids had a strong position regarding buying IBD infected animals, and was initially trumpeting how they were going to pursue all legal recourse. I sympathized fully with the buyer's plight, no legal action materialized, and the buyer lost all. That's reality. Show me one successful IBD civil case, pending or otherwise.

Left out a little bit, huh. :NoNo: The point of asking to see a successful case was to show that there hasn't been one yet to serve as a roadmap, and to imply how easy it would go was a big leap. The TSE situation demonstrated to many here that there is a significant threshold between fairness and justice, as until someone has actually been there, they often underestimate it.

I genuinely thank you for the discussion. :yesnod:
 
Jon Mitchell said:
I did send him an email although I don't expect him to return it. He knew he sold me an animal that was at the very least sick if not contaiminated with IBD. Like I said in other emails, he never ate on his own nor deficated. All Allen wanted to do was have me send it back and him "try to get it going again". I have my fingers crossed that it didn't infect the rest of my collection.

I did read the posts and put him in the fridge before he was frozen. I have always heard to put them in the freezer but I took him out. I am having my vey send him out to a reptile pathologist so I can get the best results possible.

Thanks guys,

Jon

I have my fingers crossed for you as well, Jon. Do you have a time frame in which you might have test results?
 
Chameleon Company said:
You state this:
However, your original point was that there could not be a successful case brought because "I've never heard of a successful IBD case".

And here is my initial post on the subject, from which you took the above quote:



Left out a little bit, huh. :NoNo: The point of asking to see a successful case was to show that there hasn't been one yet to serve as a roadmap, and to imply how easy it would go was a big leap. The TSE situation demonstrated to many here that there is a significant threshold between fairness and justice, as until someone has actually been there, they often underestimate it.

I genuinely thank you for the discussion. :yesnod:


Didn't mean to leave anything out,thought I had summarized the main point, and addressed the others in the quoted stuff.

You still have not answered my questions about are you aware of any unsuccessful IBD cases being brought?
 
The spider got sent out today for a necropsy. I did send a complaint to KS but I am sure nothing will be done about it. Allen has his ads back up again tonight selling super pastels/66% het ghosts for very very cheap for those interested......

I should have the results back within a week but not sure what they will find. I did freeze him without thinking about IBD being a retroVIRUS and that the freezer would kill any said virus. Looks like Allen might be off the hook with this one too.

I ordered replacement spiders from another great dealer that I have had great luck with. Needless to say, they will not be anywhere near anything the spider was for quite some time.

Jon Mitchell
 
Lloyd,
..... are you aware of any unsuccessful IBD cases being brought?
Only know that a few have talked about initiating such. It would be interesting if and when, although that "if and when" would likely end in a settlement, and it would not surprise me if part of the settlement was for all parties to go quietly.
 
In my opinion anyone knowingly selling carriers should be held criminally negligent-like if you sold beef with BSE, but we all know reptiles are not treated that way so it would just end up a civil suit. In which case the victims will never recover any money, just like the many reptile thefts and the TSE scam.

I have been and am in many industries and it pains me to say that the reptile industry which is my passion has the largest percentage of scumbags out of them all.


ben cole
 
bcherps said:
In my opinion anyone knowingly selling carriers should be held criminally negligent

I have been and am in many industries and it pains me to say that the reptile industry which is my passion has the largest percentage of scumbags out of them all.


ben cole

Good points Ben. Notice "scumbag"
 
New Spiders

Well, I got my two new spiders today and they look great. They are fat and appear healthy. I am sure they are fine and will flourish. It's funny, I got them both for the same price Allen sold me the single male that was very sickly looking when I got him.

The spiders are the same age as the one from Allen that died and they are a 100 grams heavier. Go figure, someone feeding their snakes and taking care of the properly.

Just wanted to let everyone know.

Jon
 
post

Jon Mitchell said:
Well, I got my two new spiders today and they look great. They are fat and appear healthy. I am sure they are fine and will flourish. It's funny, I got them both for the same price Allen sold me the single male that was very sickly looking when I got him.

The spiders are the same age as the one from Allen that died and they are a 100 grams heavier. Go figure, someone feeding their snakes and taking care of the properly.

Just wanted to let everyone know.

Jon
Jon,first off sorry about the spider that passed on.Since you have these 2 new spiders that are in perfect condition have you made a good guy post on the seller? Not trying to tell you what to do,just thought by chance Allen could see how a proper breeder cares for his snakes :rofl: .
 
Got the test results back today. They were inconclusive. Talking with the vet that performed the Necropsy at Purdue, he said that given the symptoms and the amount of time he lived, his guess was IBD. When the snake was sent, they just asked for a necropsy and didn't state anything about IBD. When I spoke with the vet, I didn't say anything either but wanted to ask him about the results. I gave him the entire history of the snake, I keep a pretty detailed account for each viewing, and he said it sounds like IBD.

He also said that with me quarentining him when I did, the others should be ok but to keep an eye on them. So far, everyone seems fine and he hasn't been in the general population for almost three months. My fingers are crossed that everything is ok but well see.

Sorry guys, nothing to add to the shame of Allen Blecher. I am sure as many of you probablly are, it was IBD.

Jon
 
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully nothing else has been infected if it was IBD. Got my toes crossed for ya.
 
Why is Kingsnake still allowing this guy to advertise? How much MONEY do they need before they start caring about the animal's well-being and the customers that are being robbed??!!! It's painfully obvious that people will lose their established collections when they unknowingly buy sick animals. At some point, somebody needs to use sound moral judgment and look beyond their pocketbooks!
 
Aw jeez Jon.....I wish you could have gotten some conrete results one way or the other, but the time in the freezer may have taken its toll. I would still feel pretty confident (especially with the Purdue vet's opinion) that it was IBD, now we'll just all have to keep our digits crossed that the rest of your collection is clean.

Allen............how do you sleep at night?
 
bcherps said:
In my opinion anyone knowingly selling carriers should be held criminally negligent-like if you sold beef with BSE, but we all know reptiles are not treated that way so it would just end up a civil suit. In which case the victims will never recover any money, just like the many reptile thefts and the TSE scam.

I have been and am in many industries and it pains me to say that the reptile industry which is my passion has the largest percentage of scumbags out of them all.


ben cole

I highly agree! Me being a worry wart when it comes to friends who bring their Boas/Bp's over my home, now i find myself sitting outside with them, while my snakes are left in their cages in their room. Going back in my home i change out and wash up well! I do not want to run the risk of any of my snakes getting sick, and worse dying on me. This is my friend who often comes over and has Ball Pythons dropping like flies now. And has not taken one to the Vet. to be checked. Or worse yet at this point now, not taken the any of the others that lived in the same cage with these snakes to be seen by a Vet. I have a great exotic Vet. here in Fl. but he wont go.

I know how reptiles are regulated in Petstores. They are not. No laws protect them. And this makes me mad. The only thing to do is get these people who we know are selling snakes with IBD off other sites. This disease has no cure...this angers me to no end. It's a death sentence for our collection of other Pythons/boas etc. perhaps.

If i bought from this person and found this site after my animal died, and it was probable IBD shown i would sue this guy simply because my others will probably have to be put down!! I keep all my snakes in one large room, different cages, but still.

Yes he NEEDS to be pulled off other sites. And STOP selling. Many people only go to Kingsnake to buy, so they are not looking here.

Also MIKE GREATHOUSE ROCKS! I bought his 6 yr. old male Boa with the reverse strip who went on his first lecture with me!!!! (had to throw that in)

This being said...go with the big guys who have an outstanding rep!

This other "seller" is selling with the knowledge that he has sick animals, sick...now that is a suit! First if a person has animals that are sick and does not get treatment for them it's ABUSE, they suffer! Also it's more than wrong to sell SICK animals to the public. Reptiles are animals! Disease spreads and wipes out large collections causing much damage to us and a loss of many dollars in breeding projects. Not to mention mine are simply my darling snakes that share time with me in the home for hours of pleasure! Breeder or snake lover (pets if you will) it still is bad business to have him selling.

He needs to stop this insane 'game' at our expense for his profit. :angry:
 
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