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IBD disease / My ball and my boas

Please I have an appt. tomorrow to get them put down!
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Sorry for your loss Mike. I know it is not an easy thing to do. I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this, can't they send the test/slides/whatever to a lab for a conclusive opinion? Before I put down my collection I would want to be absolutely positive I was doing the right thing.
 
kmurphy said:
Sorry for your loss Mike. I know it is not an easy thing to do. I know I'll probably get jumped on for saying this, can't they send the test/slides/whatever to a lab for a conclusive opinion? Before I put down my collection I would want to be absolutely positive I was doing the right thing.
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no i agree on that thought. I still think that the liver biopsies should be done, or at least a few of them to really determine if it is in fact IBD. Expensive yes, but then you can be absolutely sure you are making the right decision.

But to ask a question if i might..There are a few posts explaining the disease in this thread, and from what i gathered from them and internet searches, basically if a mass is seen in the cells, is that conclusive of IBD? Right now, what i understand is that.. with the blood tests, they are inaccurate because you might not get any cells that have the masses in them, but if you do see them....? is it possible it can be something else, or no?
 
You have seemed to understand better than some what points I have tried to make and definitely more understanding, so for that thanks.

As far as a second opinion of sorts, I spoke to my vet and he is going to speak with the lab. I do not know what he will be looking to do, but he said lets wait untill he can speak with them. Hoping he may suggest another test. That is not cheap $60 alone for the blood work per snake, but I guess I have to do it to know for sure.

Please if anyone has knowledge of these levels and what they mean, what they could be elevated or low due to, please let me know!

Thanks to everyone!
Thanks Kevin
Mike
 
just so know thinks I am "putting my tail between my legs" I MAY not be able to respond this weekend. I do not have access to a computer at home, it fried and I have not replaced it yet...Got vet bills that are more important right now!

But please respond with info, I will do my best on Saturday to get somewhere that I can use a computer!

Take care
 
And... someone... took a pen and scribbled out what was printed on the vet reports, writing in other things. The scans are utterly useless in that condition.
 
Mooing Tricycle said:
But to ask a question if i might..There are a few posts explaining the disease in this thread, and from what i gathered from them and internet searches, basically if a mass is seen in the cells, is that conclusive of IBD? Right now, what i understand is that.. with the blood tests, they are inaccurate because you might not get any cells that have the masses in them, but if you do see them....? is it possible it can be something else, or no?
Click to expand...
To answer this question....

Yes, it is possible. An untrained lab tech could mistake an enlarged cellular organelle for an inclusion body. Or, the microscope or other equipment being used may not be of high quality. There are a few variables. However, if a mass IS observed in a cell that is not an inclusion body directly related to IBD, the mass is still abnormal and an indication of other problems.
 
And... someone... took a pen and scribbled out what was printed on the vet reports, writing in other things. The scans are utterly useless in that condition.
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The only pen marks I saw was where boa was corrected to ball python and the fax number was obiterated. The fax number would be easy to get there office number is at the top of the page.
 
In the reports, I also noticed some words that were either misspelled or in the completely wrong context.

Is this a reputable vet that has extensive experience with reptiles (not sure if it has been asked already)??
 
In response to your question about the BP not testing positive - I don't consider that to be particularly surprising. Pythons respond much differently to this disease than boas do. Once they begin to develop inclusion bodies, progression is fairly quick...which I would suspect would decrease/eliminate the # of "free floating" inclusions. Boas can live for years without ever showing a symptom, allowing the inclusions to form in increasingly greater numbers, which would increase the possibilities of being discovered by the blood test.
Hopefully, the vet took organ samples to be tested.
 
The numbers are saying the white blood cell counts. They are saying that they are excessively high. Infected snakes may be seen with leuocytosis, (WBC>30000 cells/mL....very high). The numbers really say the liver is not working right.

The test that should have been done to these blood samples was the Buffy coat. Why they didn't do that, I ain't sure. It's standard when looking for IBD in blood samples. They stain it with H&E, Diff Quik, or Wright's Giemsa and look directly at the cell's cytoplasma for inclusions.

My vet says this, and My book says it too. Sorta curious why they didn't. Could not your vet ask the lab to retest the sample that returned negative and do the Buffy coat? If all they have is blood to work with, than it should be done.

I have some tests coming soon from (I believe) the same place. It's the first time My vet has sent anything of mine to them. Usually it goes to Northwest Zoo Path Labs. And he explains everything to me when I go pick up my copy of the results. I would ask yours to do the same. It's better coming from the vet you're working with.

Sorry you have to destroy your snakes. But it really is the right thing to do. Like I mentioned earlier, if you'd contact the Dr.'s I mentioned earlier, and offer a live specimen, it may go a long ways to researching a cure. Just a thought. :shrug01:
 
kmurphy said:
The only pen marks I saw was where boa was corrected to ball python and the fax number was obiterated. The fax number would be easy to get there office number is at the top of the page.
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The question becomes- *who* made the "correction" when did they make it and why.

If Mike here just took some results and decided it was a ball python now, they're useless.

If the vet got samles mixed up and decided to simply arbitrarily assign lab results to individual animals, they're useless.

If nothing else it suggests a signifigant ambiguity about the lab results and calls into question the credentials and knowledge of the vet. It's unprofessional and invalidates the inherent value of the results as a record of any kind.
 
mjcnj said:
As far as a second opinion of sorts, I spoke to my vet and he is going to speak with the lab. I do not know what he will be looking to do, but he said lets wait untill he can speak with them. Hoping he may suggest another test. That is not cheap $60 alone for the blood work per snake, but I guess I have to do it to know for sure.
Click to expand...

Once again......blood tests are NOT proof positive. I agree that I would wait to put the animals down until there is proof, but the only way you are going to get that is through tissue biopsies. Spend that $60 on a blood test and it comes back as negative....you still don't know for sure.

I would make sure you have a HERP QUALIFIED vet do any testing, and make sure they are explaining the results to you.....and understanding them themselves.

I also agree completely with what Rick said....it may be difficult, but if you can donate some animals as live specimens, at least your unfortunate loss may help prevent others from going through the same thing in the future.

Good luck.
 
Cat_72 said:
Once again......blood tests are NOT proof positive. I agree that I would wait to put the animals down until there is proof, but the only way you are going to get that is through tissue biopsies. Spend that $60 on a blood test and it comes back as negative....you still don't know for sure.

I would make sure you have a HERP QUALIFIED vet do any testing, and make sure they are explaining the results to you.....and understanding them themselves.

I also agree completely with what Rick said....it may be difficult, but if you can donate some animals as live specimens, at least your unfortunate loss may help prevent others from going through the same thing in the future.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just got the vets reports to open, and see that there indeed were animals that did test positive for IBD. That's a bit of a different story, I suppose. You may still want to have the vet talk to the lab for clarification of some information, but I don't see what will be changed in the final outcome.
 
OOPS !
question directed to :quote:
Just curious...Mike, what's your last name. I can see that you have the first name up there, but the last name is not there.
__________________


Metachrosis said:
Why is that relevant ?
This isnt the BOI. :rolleyes:
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They want to know his full name so people know who to avoid if he ever has animals for sale.

I just had to laugh about his last name being Clark. Another Clark with sick snakes and a suspicious vet. :D
 
And................Both Clarks are from New Jersey.
Talk about a strange coincidence. :rofl:
 
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