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IBD disease / My ball and my boas

M

mjcnj

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I just learned a big lesson and anyones input is greatly appreciated.

I am relatively new with snakes, and I made a big mistake. I put all of my yearling and younger boas, Albinos and het for albinos in a cage with a ball python and had them boarded while I was on an extended stay vacation, for 2 weeks. They and I have been home for a week. The are back in there individual cages now.

All of a sudden the ball python is all out a whack. He looks like his equilbrium is off, his head is heavy or something. He moves back over his own body and flips himself over.

I checked around and even spoke with Peter kahl and it is all but a blood test away from being confirmed that he has a neurological disorder, more than likely IBD. Which is deadly, no cure.

Now, here is the part that people like me, new, should no. Boas can be asymptomatic carriers of the deadly disease, they can live a normal life, but it is highly contagious in a group.

My ball python was with the infected boa. The boas that were clean are not anymore. The python, as pythons tend to be, will possibly die quick or it will strugle to survive and then die. The recomendtion is to euthenize the animal. As far as th boas they are more than likely all infected and there fate is to be seen. They may live out there life without showing signs of the disorder or they may succumb to the same neurological disorders that the Ball python has.

PLEASE correct me if I have misstated something, but I just wanted people to know about this, if they do not already.

They call it the Reptiles AIDS, there is no cure.

Please add or correct me if I am wrong. i have done a lot of research today and I may have missed soomething.

Thanks

Mike
 
When will you learn the test results? Because it could even be something like, it fell (or something) and received brain damage. Too often people jump to the IBD conclusion and scare people.

Also. IF it is IBD.. then the ball would not be the only one put down. all the snakes that came in contact would. From what I have heard. It is spread fairly easily. Again, just what I heard.

I always hear of an entire collection being put down. Never just one snake.

Correct me if I am wrong, I admit I too am still learning a lot.
 
I am sorry to hear of your misfortune. Don't do anything until your results come back which will allow you to make an informed decision.

Earlier this year I had to euthanize my whole boa collection. You must assume that if one has it then they may all possibly have it as well. I also destroyed all of my enclosures, equipment and moved out of the state. (The move was already planned and was just timed well.) I have to start all over again.

Good of you to come out in public with it. Some people don't and perpetuate the disease..... Respect!

If your test comes back positive then I recommend any euthanizing to be done by a vet.

Good luck, keep a stiff upper lip and keep us posted.
 
A blood test for IBD can not be considered conclusive as it only affords minimal clues.(Suggestive)Having a necropsy performed on the python will provide the conclusive evidence and or presence of the Inclusion Bodies.

I recently had a rather lengthy conversation with the Dr of Pathology at Texas AM in College Station Tx and his opinion of the "air-borne IBD " theory basically suggest its doesn't hold water.I couldn't get him to clarify due to liability reasons, by his replies he skirted direct answers quite skillfully :D yet left enough to fill in a portion of the gray area. :rofl:
Summary ...... He believes IBD doesn't transfer as current literature suggest via the "air-borne" theory.
 
From my understanding, a blood test CAN show that the animal is positive for IBD, however even if the blood test comes back negative, it cannot definitively say it does NOT, as the inclusion bodies are sometimes, but not always seen in blood samples. There are places that can do tissue samples without euthanizing the snake, but they are expensive and though more reliable than blood tests still are not 100%. Necropsy is really the only completely reliable method. If you do the blood test, and it comes back negative, you still don't have a real answer.

mjcnj said:
My ball python was with the infected boa. The boas that were clean are not anymore. The python, as pythons tend to be, will possibly die quick or it will strugle to survive and then die. The recomendtion is to euthenize the animal. As far as th boas they are more than likely all infected and there fate is to be seen. They may live out there life without showing signs of the disorder or they may succumb to the same neurological disorders that the Ball python has.
Click to expand...

Do you know that there is "an infected Boa" as such? I mean, is there a boa exhibiting sypmptoms as well?

One other thing to consider here...and I don't mean to sound harsh, as I know you are going through enough right now...but you really need to weigh your options with the rest of your animals. If the Ball is shown to have IBD, one could most likely assume that those that were in contact with the Ball, and very possibly any animals that were not strictly quarantined from the Ball may very well have contracted it as well. Asymptomatic or not, they can be capable of spreading this awful disease to other animals if they are carriers. Personally, I could not keep any animals not knowing whether I they were carriers or not, and take the chance that I could be responsible for causing someone else to go through what you are going through now.

As Art said, do NOT take any drastic actions until you have a 100% positive answer. Make your decisions wisely from there....I truly wish you the best of luck. Please keep us posted.
 
Have you notified the place you boarded the animals of the situation?
It may have been from being in contact with other boarded ainmals OR your animals could possibly have infected the others boarded there.

One thing to consider while you wait for the results is being exposed to high temps can cause neurological problems. Do you know if the temps were controlled while being boarded? Could the snakes have been exposed to very high temps and the BP was not able to withstand it?

Good luck with this. IBD is terrible. That is the reason why, even though I REALLY want a lipstick line albino boa, I will never get one. I have too many BP's and don't want to take the risk since boas can be carriers and until the way it is spread is confirmed, I won't take the risk.

If the BP comes back positive, make sure all animals that came in contact with it are put down. I know it sounds extreme, but it is the only way to stop IBD from spreading.

Good luck.
 
High temperatures, exposure to chemicals (cleaning agents, disinfectants), and any number of other causes could be responsible for the symptoms you describe. I agree that it is too soon to shout IBD, but all you can to is offer optimum husbandry and get them tested (blood test or live biopsy). If the python dies, you should get a necropsy done - a) to confirm IBD, b) isolate other possible causes. (depending on where you boarded them, if it was something THEY did, you could be due some compensation)
 
Not as simple as a "blood test away" as many would have you believe. Though the presence of eosinophilic intracytoplasmic inclusions (IBDV) may be present in blood samples, they do not always present themselves as easily. They are more commonly found in visceral epithelial cells of organs and tissues. This requires biopsy of certain key tissues and organs for optimum diagnosis. Or as suggested, through necropsy and sampling of said tissues and organs.

Here is a link with some info.....

http://www.vetpathology.org/cgi/content/full/37/5/449?ijkey=bcb8663d304c847be997549482f5b6136aae2a83


As mentioned already, a number of things can cause these very similar symptoms. Excessive heat with no means to cool off, chemicals, yada, yada. IBDV is not conclusive without proper testing, and it's not cheap. If you have ONLY a blood sample tested, and it proves negative for inclusions, this doesn't mean they are not present. This is why they want to have live biopsy samples to test in most cases.

Pythons display a much more rapid onset of neurological signs, and deteriorate very quickly in positive cases. Where as a Boa can remain Asymptomatic for a long time. This is why a lot of people will stress quarantine of boas for no less than six months before entering into a collection. But unfortunately, it's still a gamble even with such a lengthy quarantine.

Little is known about this disease. A lot of research has been going on, and two of the top Vets in the country who are known for their research efforts into IBDV are both teamed up at the University of Florida, Veterinary medical School. Dr. Elliott Jacobson, and Dr. Douglas Mader.

I know it's probably the furthest thing from your mind, but if you do end up with positive cases, perhaps you would consider contacting them, and maybe offering a specimen to them for further research while still alive? Could go a long way to helping with the research involved. Just a thought.

I hope things turn out for the better for you. Putting down an entire collection is not the easiest thing to do. But it is the ONLY responsible thing to do if the inclusions prove to be present.

Thanks for coming forward with this potential problem. A lot of people would try to keep it hush in order to make a fast buck or two. These selfish actions can be a devastation to our industry. I commend you for being open about it.


Keep us posted.
Rick
 
Metachrosis said:
I recently had a rather lengthy conversation with the Dr of Pathology at Texas AM in College Station Tx and his opinion of the "air-borne IBD " theory basically suggest its doesn't hold water.I couldn't get him to clarify due to liability reasons, by his replies he skirted direct answers quite skillfully :D yet left enough to fill in a portion of the gray area. :rofl:
Summary ...... He believes IBD doesn't transfer as current literature suggest via the "air-borne" theory.
Click to expand...

I gotta say, hearing stuff like this stated, from a so called licensed professional, just scares the crap out of me. IMHO, the reason he has so many "gray areas" left in the open, is because he isn't positive. If he isn't positive, than such nonchalant statements should be kept to himself until he can be "positive" of what he's saying.
With statements like that floating around, there will inevitably be people who will take it as gospel, and take less measures to protect against the spread of this disease. That just ain't a good thing for the industry no matter how you look at it.

I respect you Tom, even some of your ideas, but stuff like that shouldn't even be shared, IMO, without substantial claims to back it up. Not publicly anyway. There is more evidence to suggest possible airborne transmission, than there is to refute it.


Peace.
 
I hear ya,its the good the bad,the glad and the sad.
What I shared was no less important then the latest break-thru news,if there were to be.There are many people with many opinions/beliefs and experiences in IBDV Pathology.Regretfully they all appear to retain a position of exclusivity and refusal to except data from equally qualified/educated peers.

If those involved would put as much effort into "teamwork towards advancement" as they do in their Social Status efforts there would be many more "actual"advancements.

There is more profit in managing diseases then there is in curing them.
Whats needed is a "cure"but if all they can offer is a means of suppression/resistance I'll take it !
 
While airborne transmission is certainly a possibility, it doesn't explain some of the cases I have heard/read about...unless it doesn't follow conventional airborne rules. I think that it is just as likely that our quarantine/disinfection practices are not effective. (you can spray the hell out of everything with Chlorhexidene...but if the agent isn't susceptible to it, what are you really doing besides getting it wet??) Think about it for a moment...if killing/stopping IBD was as easy as routine (or even extraordinary) disinfection, why is the recommendation to DESTROY caging?
Granted, I am not up on all the research, so I don't know what has been proven -one way or the other - vs what is theory.

I will say that a total elapsed time of 3 weeks would be impressive for an python to be that symptomatic...unless, and assuming for the sake of argument that it is IBD, the exposure happened within his collection---ie BEFORE he took them to the sitter
 
I never understood the caging thing either ?
its most likely directed towards the enclosure's built from porous materials like wood/plywood etc.

The stance many seem to take is that this "bug" cant be killed :shrug01: like some alien life form destined to consume the world :ack2:
 
Just what I have read in this post, and this post alone, it almost sounds like the similar diseases that occur in mammals caused by prions. However, prions can only be passed genetically and by eating afflicted tissues. I am very curious now! This sounds like a very serious illness that I need to read more about.

I am working on my Ph.D. in microbiology and immunology, so this is right up my alley.
 
Metachrosis said:
I never understood the caging thing either ?
its most likely directed towards the enclosure's built from porous materials like wood/plywood etc.

The stance many seem to take is that this "bug" cant be killed :shrug01: like some alien life form destined to consume the world :ack2:
Click to expand...
Clearly a lot of that comes from lack of understanding, combined with the insidious nature of the disease.

As far as the caging - thinking realisitically, caging appropriately sized to an adult boa would be a :censored: to EFFECTIVELY clean/disinfect. Corners and creases are naturally harder to get into, and any residue of natural waste would offer some protection to the pathogen. Something along the lines of AP cages, that can be broken down, thoroughly scrubbed/disinfected with the proper agents, exposed to sunlight (repeat process x 3-10, just to be damn sure, lol), then reassembled, would probably be the safest bet.
 
In my particular case many of my enclosures were wooden. Not being able to find any definitive answers regarding IBDV led me to be as thorough as I could possibly be in preventing the disease from further infection.

As far as I am concerned..... better safe than sorry. IBDV hit me so hard that I would rather take a total loss than to risk a future collection. Look at how long ParvoVirus can hang around an area. We just don't have enough facts to warrant any chances.
 
UPDATE:
The ball is having a necropsy done on him today. Will this show if he was infected with the IBD?

Man I hope he doesn not have it. I had 1.1 Albinos, 2.2 Het for Albinos. What a shame!

I will post the results for anyone who cares to see.
 
I'm sorry to hear that he died...but glad that you are getting him checked out, so you know what the situation is.
I'm still curious about the statement you made earlier (Cat mentioned it, so I didn't bother...but since you didn't respond) -
My ball python was with the infected boa.
Click to expand...
How do you know there was an infected boa? Was this one of yours? Or something they encountered while they were being boarded?
IF this turns out to be IBD, I suspect that the exposure was at your place, not the boarding location...3 weeks from exposure to death is incredibly fast - too fast, IMO, but I admit to relatively limited knowledge on the subject.
 
I do not think it the exposure was at the boarding place. I have been aquiring het for albino and albinos for the last 6 months. One of the new ones, I suspect is a carrier. I am not sure of the time frame it takes to hit the snake, pythons, but this snake was getting worse every day, very quick moving illness.

I sure hope it was something els that caused the neurological disorder. I have albinos just a t a year and they are georgous.

Would it be best to euthenize them all? Cant I just keep them as pets, dont breed?
Please tell me why or why not that will not work?!!?

Thanks
 
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