IBD disease / My ball and my boas

[mjcnj]

One more thing.

IF I decide to euthenize sooner than later. What do I have to do to ensure that the next snakes I start off with again are OK. Blood tests? What do you do other than quarantine a snake when you get. Because if you just quarantine, do you not pick them up. AND just on the outside chance that they do have it, why can any one go to shows while they have a snake in quarentine. If someone has a snake, with no symptoms, that does not mean that the snake is clean.

I am not trying to cause chaos amongst the boid owners, but I am looking for input on what to do and what not to do as my next step!

Thanks for your time,

Mike

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The first thing I would suggest is closing down your ads for boas and caging on Fauna. If you have sold any caging or snakes listed in your ads, notify the buyers at once.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

One more thing.

IF I decide to euthenize sooner than later. What do I have to do to ensure that the next snakes I start off with again are OK. Blood tests? What do you do other than quarantine a snake when you get. Because if you just quarantine, do you not pick them up. AND just on the outside chance that they do have it, why can any one go to shows while they have a snake in quarentine. If someone has a snake, with no symptoms, that does not mean that the snake is clean.

I am not trying to cause chaos amongst the boid owners, but I am looking for input on what to do and what not to do as my next step!

Thanks for your time,

Mike

No, you are asking legitimate questions. no worries on chaos, not a lot of people know about this disease in its entirety in the first place, and, as sad as it is to see you have animals infected and will more than likely be putting them down, its a good tool/thread to learn from.

Get rid of the enclosures. Plastic or not, destroy them. I just honestly do not think its worth the risk of transmitting the disease to new animals in the future. if someone can prove that plastic can be used again after a very thorough cleaning, then by all means

Id say, when you finally do get more animals in the future, get a Ball Python first, they seem to be good detectors, and research the breeders you get any future animals from!!!

im going to say though, and truly truly do not mean this as heartless, but. Put those animals down. every single infected animal. Dragging it out will do you no good, nor the animals. People might say "they can live a healthy life with it" but... i think its crock. Just like any other disease where people say its alright, they can live with it.... while passing it on to more animals in the process.... its just not right, or fair to the animals.

 

[Seamus Haley]

'ey Mike...

Any chance you can post your vet reports that identify IBD?

 

[mjcnj]

When I get all the results back I will post them, no doubt!

Mike

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I will update after all tests are done. I will also tell you my decision about keeping them or not. But why if I kept them could I not go to a show. I bathe regularly. I would not handle any snakes, especially after I handled one of mine.

Mike

Because it wouldn't be ethical to do so. It is not known for sure all the methods this disease can be transmitted. You may be bringing little clingons with your clothes, "bathed" or not.

Rather then put them down. Wouldn't some research facility have a need for IBD infected snakes? Atleast then they would serve some purpose.

I was thinking along the same lines. Could go a long ways to finding a cure. Never know.

One more thing.

IF I decide to euthenize sooner than later. What do I have to do to ensure that the next snakes I start off with again are OK. Blood tests? What do you do other than quarantine a snake when you get. Because if you just quarantine, do you not pick them up. AND just on the outside chance that they do have it, why can any one go to shows while they have a snake in quarentine. If someone has a snake, with no symptoms, that does not mean that the snake is clean.

Me personally, I rent a room from a friend of mine. It's my little quarantine place. Maybe what I do is of no help at all, but I clean with betadine solution, and chlorhexidine again after that, every nook and cranny every time i go over there, if I have a snake there. I scrub with surgical scrub afterwards too. May all be useless, but it gives me piece of mind. Any new arrivals stay for 6 months, and I watch them closely, weighing frequently, and measuring how much they drink, there activity levels, and alertness all during this time. I have fecal examinations and blood work done on any new arrivals, to look for signs of internal parasites, or hemoglobin's out of whack, ect. Signs of an unhealthy Boa.

I do this because I have had 3 on line friends go through IBD now, and it really does suck what they were going through. But they didn't hesitate to euthanize, and destroy caging, which was the responsible thing to do if it's discovered in your collection.

When I get all the results back I will post them, no doubt!

That would be cool. The Path report will tell more, either would be cool though.


Rick

 

[Cat_72]

IF I decide to euthenize sooner than later. What do I have to do to ensure that the next snakes I start off with again are OK. Blood tests? What do you do other than quarantine a snake when you get. Because if you just quarantine, do you not pick them up.

The most important thing is to buy from a reputable breeder. Research them on the BOI, ask around elsewhere, and ask the breeder any and all questions you feel the need to. Don't buy anything just because "it's a good deal". And again, blood tests can confirm that an animal has inclusion bodies present, but it CANNOT prove that an animal is negative for IBD. This is why quarantine is absolutely essential.

AND just on the outside chance that they do have it, why can any one go to shows while they have a snake in quarentine. If someone has a snake, with no symptoms, that does not mean that the snake is clean.

Think of it this way.....if there is ANY chance, be it ever so small, that by YOU going to a show, that you could spread this disease and cause other people to go through the same thing that you are going through now....do you really want to take that chance? Do you want to be responsible for someone else having to put down their entire collection, their pet, and feeling the same despair you do?

 

[SPJ]

Even buying from a large breeder may not insulate you from this.

A VERY well known large breeder had a severe IBD problem a few years back and lost lots of animals to it.

You just never know nowadays.

 

[mjcnj]

1st off the information I am getting from these pages is only 1/3 of the totall information I have received. The other 2/3 is from Vets, Breeders ( Larger than anyone, with more knowledge than anyone that has responded to me on this site ) So any questions are just that questions in order to get responses and opinions. In the end I would never jeapordize another living animal. My intent, by disclosing this, should show my desire to get this information out to others. So that noone else has to go through this.

But I will share some information from the other 2/3 of people, lets say the true experts and what they have said.

1) a high % of boas if tested would show the presence of Inclusion bodies in there system.
2) it is a week virus, the first virus ever attempted to be grown in lab conditions, took over 2 years. Highly improbable that it would be transmitted through the air.

* Based on 1 & 2. A good % of snakes at the shows would more than likely, if tested, be positive for IBD. OK Lets say 10 out of 1000. They are in the room, in the air, they may even be handled by someone who does not wash his hor her hands. It would or could be a contamination of the majority of the snakes there. Not to mention, they go home and handle there pregnant snake....

** If you, Generally anyone, had 10 boas checked with blood testing, easily 5 could show up with IBD in the blood. NOW they may never ever show signs of the disease, and they may live a long life.

*** BIG BREEDER OF BOAS, one of the biggest, Stated, "it is cost prohibitive to have his incoming, present stock and new babies sold, to be checked." "It is just something Boas may have, just like we have certain dehabilitating cells in our systems. The boas can and may live there natural life fine with 0 problems"

**** Vet specializing in Reptile / snakes.
Exposure to this disease is not considered to be airborn. However, any snake can and will get sick if living conditions are not kept sanitary. If feces are left to pile up, soiled paper or bedding is left, any snakes chances are greated to get sick from the natural break down of this and airborne particals can be snet throughout. BASICS snake handling rules should always prevail, keep your cages clean, wash hands before handling the next snake. Not sanitizing your hands COULD transfer disease.

The only conclusion I can take from the info I have been given is that if tested a good % of the boas of people who go to shows, their boas would come up positive for IBD. It is something Boas may or may not have. But your snake that may appear healthy, eats, sheds properly and appears from the outside clinically healthy can and may right now, have IBD in its blood. But you will never know because you have no reason to have it checked. So why pay an office visit and a blood test bill, your snake is fine, right, maybe not.

In the end, IF I DID NOT PUT MY BALL IN WITH MY BOAS, I WOULD NEVER HAVE KNOW THE BOAS HAD THIS IBD. THINK ABOUT IT, HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD TO HAVE THERE SNAKES TESTED, NEVER EVEN HAD A SICK SNAKE, YET THEY HAVE A BOA WITH IBD, BUT BECAUSE THE SNAKE DOES NOT SHOW THE SYMPTOMS OF IT, THEY GO TO SHOWS, THEY BREED THE SNAKE AND SO ON.

I just think from what I have been told, the ibd thing is out there in boas and thats that!

I know my snakes have it, I will never do anything to ever put someones collection at risk, but euthenizing healhy boas is not the answer, not putting them with other snakes and especially pythons is definitely good advice. But I like every other person who enjoys going to shows, will shower put clean clothes on and go to a show and enjoy it like everyone else who owns a boa.

Thanks for your time and let the onslaught begin. Please do not think I am rude if I do not respond ny further. I have had a very long week and frankly I want to put this behind me!

Take care of your boas, keep things clean, be very cautious with exposing Pythons to your boas and if they appear sick get them seen or treat them sooner then later.

 

[Wilomn]

1st off the information I am getting from these pages is only 1/3 of the totall information I have received. The other 2/3 is from Vets, Breeders ( Larger than anyone, with more knowledge than anyone that has responded to me on this site ) So any questions are just that questions in order to get responses and opinions. In the end I would never jeapordize another living animal. My intent, by disclosing this, should show my desire to get this information out to others. So that noone else has to go through this.

But I will share some information from the other 2/3 of people, lets say the true experts and what they have said.

1) a high % of boas if tested would show the presence of Inclusion bodies in there system.
2) it is a week virus, the first virus ever attempted to be grown in lab conditions, took over 2 years. Highly improbable that it would be transmitted through the air.

* Based on 1 & 2. A good % of snakes at the shows would more than likely, if tested, be positive for IBD. OK Lets say 10 out of 1000. They are in the room, in the air, they may even be handled by someone who does not wash his hor her hands. It would or could be a contamination of the majority of the snakes there. Not to mention, they go home and handle there pregnant snake....

** If you, Generally anyone, had 10 boas checked with blood testing, easily 5 could show up with IBD in the blood. NOW they may never ever show signs of the disease, and they may live a long life.

*** BIG BREEDER OF BOAS, one of the biggest, Stated, "it is cost prohibitive to have his incoming, present stock and new babies sold, to be checked." "It is just something Boas may have, just like we have certain dehabilitating cells in our systems. The boas can and may live there natural life fine with 0 problems"

**** Vet specializing in Reptile / snakes.
Exposure to this disease is not considered to be airborn. However, any snake can and will get sick if living conditions are not kept sanitary. If feces are left to pile up, soiled paper or bedding is left, any snakes chances are greated to get sick from the natural break down of this and airborne particals can be snet throughout. BASICS snake handling rules should always prevail, keep your cages clean, wash hands before handling the next snake. Not sanitizing your hands COULD transfer disease.

The only conclusion I can take from the info I have been given is that if tested a good % of the boas of people who go to shows, their boas would come up positive for IBD. It is something Boas may or may not have. But your snake that may appear healthy, eats, sheds properly and appears from the outside clinically healthy can and may right now, have IBD in its blood. But you will never know because you have no reason to have it checked. So why pay an office visit and a blood test bill, your snake is fine, right, maybe not.

In the end, IF I DID NOT PUT MY BALL IN WITH MY BOAS, I WOULD NEVER HAVE KNOW THE BOAS HAD THIS IBD. THINK ABOUT IT, HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD TO HAVE THERE SNAKES TESTED, NEVER EVEN HAD A SICK SNAKE, YET THEY HAVE A BOA WITH IBD, BUT BECAUSE THE SNAKE DOES NOT SHOW THE SYMPTOMS OF IT, THEY GO TO SHOWS, THEY BREED THE SNAKE AND SO ON.

I just think from what I have been told, the ibd thing is out there in boas and thats that!

I know my snakes have it, I will never do anything to ever put someones collection at risk, but euthenizing healhy boas is not the answer, not putting them with other snakes and especially pythons is definitely good advice. But I like every other person who enjoys going to shows, will shower put clean clothes on and go to a show and enjoy it like everyone else who owns a boa.

Thanks for your time and let the onslaught begin. Please do not think I am rude if I do not respond ny further. I have had a very long week and frankly I want to put this behind me!

Take care of your boas, keep things clean, be very cautious with exposing Pythons to your boas and if they appear sick get them seen or treat them sooner then later.

I've read the whole thread, waited for a conclusion, hoping it wouldn't be this one but, fearing it would.

Let's just jump straight to saying you're a scumbag. You put names to nothing. You come here for advice and tell us that we know less than other people you have gone to because WE say what you don't want to hear while THEY tell you everyone has it.

BULLSNOT.

You don't want to lose your investment. Understandable.

You will put at risk EVERYONE of us because you are too bloody cheap to start over. Thank you eversomuch for being another scumbag who cares more about money than his fellow herpers.

I mean, just because you have to go through this, and by destroying your FEW boa could most likely prevent YOUR spreading this virus, that's no reason to do the RIGHT thing and destroy them. Is it? Why should YOU have to be the guy who loses his snakes because of a virus whose transmission is not 100% understood?

WHY? Becuase YOU HAVE IT.

I Sincerely hope I NEVER meet you at a show or in person. I don't have many boas or ball pythons but I would go OUT of my way to not only aviod ANY Contact with you but to make sure anyone else with snakes knew who and what you were and to also avoid you.

You KNOW what's right. You KNOW what's wrong. Right may be more expensive, but it's RIGHT.

Man, scumbags like you really piss me off.

Would you mind posting a picture and your name so I know who to avoid at shows?

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

I've read the whole thread, waited for a conclusion, hoping it wouldn't be this one but, fearing it would.

Let's just jump straight to saying you're a scumbag. You put names to nothing. You come here for advice and tell us that we know less than other people you have gone to because WE say what you don't want to hear while THEY tell you everyone has it.

BULLSNOT.

You don't want to lose your investment. Understandable.

You will put at risk EVERYONE of us because you are too bloody cheap to start over. Thank you eversomuch for being another scumbag who cares more about money than his fellow herpers.

I mean, just because you have to go through this, and by destroying your FEW boa could most likely prevent YOUR spreading this virus, that's no reason to do the RIGHT thing and destroy them. Is it? Why should YOU have to be the guy who loses his snakes because of a virus whose transmission is not 100% understood?

WHY? Becuase YOU HAVE IT.

I Sincerely hope I NEVER meet you at a show or in person. I don't have many boas or ball pythons but I would go OUT of my way to not only aviod ANY Contact with you but to make sure anyone else with snakes knew who and what you were and to also avoid you.

You KNOW what's right. You KNOW what's wrong. Right may be more expensive, but it's RIGHT.

Man, scumbags like you really piss me off.

Would you mind posting a picture and your name so I know who to avoid at shows?

I said it before in my previous post. how could ANYONE, in good conscience take the risk of spreading this horrid disease..

That to me sounds similar to saying something like.. " I have aids, but why cant I donate blood? so many people have it already.. everyone has to die some point.. "





yes, please please let us know more about YOU.. maybe we can save OUR animals lives.. by avoiding in the business like you, that just.. don't care..

Thanks for being one of those people that bring down this wonderful hobby.

 

[hhmoore]

Since this guy is relatively local, and therefore is likely to attend shows that I vend, I guess I may have to reconsider the idea of letting interested parties handle my animals. (unless, of course, he IS willing to post a picture, so the masses do not have to suffer from his ignorance & arrogance.)

Mike - I have to say that many of us saw this response coming (from you). NOBODY said that this was an isolated or rare disease. WE, the people that you have so nicely spoken down to with your statements, KNOW that it is more widespread than most people would imagine...or even care to think about. The difference is that WE know a bit more about the nature of the disease. WE understand that if infected animals are kept, the disease WILL spread. If you doubt that, you are beyond naive. Take a look at some of the threads on this subject pertaining to IBD. Read BW Smith's story in the BOI thead he posted.

It doesn't surprise me that some big breeders might say something along the lines of the comments you posted...since it is not a huge secret that some have bred infected animals and sold the offspring, thus disseminating it across the US. It is no secret, either, that some people, upon learning that they had IBD in their collection, continued to sell without a word (hopefully, they at least had a few second thoughts). It is the denial of the nature of the disease, and the lure of the almighty dollar, that will surely turn this into the adenovirus of this sector of our hobby.

 

[99Vengeur]

I just did a search for IBD on PubMed, a repository for scientific publications, and only THREE citations were found. In one of the studies, it took 10 weeks for the appearance of inclusion bodies after a group healthy snakes were injected with IBDV. The disease has been linked with a retrovirus, but that does not mean it IS the causative agent. It is thought that it can be spread vertically from mother to offspring, through mites, and as a simple viral pathogen, although the exact route of transmission is still unclear. With that many uncertainties, why in the world would you risk spread to other snakes, whether knowingly or inadvertently??

 

[SPJ]

This guys attitude is exactly why I will not buy a boa.

You have infected animals. It is fatal. It is transmittable. You are not being a responsible keeper.

You need to notify anyone who owns a snake that came into contact with your snakes and caging (the petstore, who ever you may have sold to) and put down your collection and destroy the caging.

That is the ONLY way to prevent further spread from YOUR animals.

To knowlingly have infected animals and give us an attitude and say it doesn't matter is pure BS. You are only thinking about the monetary loss you will experience and do not care about anyone elses.

The right thing to do is put down the animals and destroy the caging.

Stop saying a big breeder told you it is OK to keep these animals. Myself and others know which "big breeder" had IBD and I will not buy anything from him and I don't think anyone else would either. He played a large part in the spread of this along with a few other ethically deprived individuals.

Do the right thing NOW.

 

[SPJ]

I see you still have your ads up.

You need to delete them and not sell any of the boas or cages!

 

[mjcnj]

If you have 10 snakes it is virtually guaranteed that 1-5 of your snakes will have IBD present. CHEAP I paid to have my tests done, have you! I am the responsible one. I know my snakes have it and I will not sell them or breed them, I will not handle someone elses snake, I will be responsible. But you have not tested your boas and anyone else who has not tested there snake is the one who is not responsible. So listen here Scum bag, if you were inteligent enough to realize that for that fact and that fact alone, someone who owns a boa and does not have evidence or knowledge that his or her snake does not have IBD then THEY, YOU are the one who is walking around these shows handling other peoples snakes, not me. Because I know, and I would never do that. SO Miss Tun, go get your check book and spend $150 per snake and get them tested until then you and anyone else who doesnt can kiss my snakes flap.

As far as letting people hold your snakes... That is my point exactly, how many people have you let hold your snakes... how many snakes, then you introduce them back into your room and the "airborne" process begins or so you think.... You think you never had an exisitng boa owner that held your snakes that did not have a snake that had IBD. Then you are greatly mistaken.

Again, I will never breed my snakes, I will never sell my snakes, I will not hold another persons snake. But for those that have not get there snakes tested then, they are the ones you have to worry about, not me!

 

[SPJ]

The first thing I would suggest is closing down your ads for boas and caging on Fauna. If you have sold any caging or snakes listed in your ads, notify the buyers at once.

Guess he decided to ignore your advice Dennis so to avoid him spreading IBD, I replied to his ads.
He will now either have to delete them or forget about anyone wanting to purchase from him.

 

[hhmoore]

Actually - since I haven't brought boas to shows since before I acquired my current collection, I haven't let anybody handle them. Nor have I handled any boa that I have not purchased.

 

[liquidleaf]

Hey Mike - here's something for you.

If something happens to you - say you perish in a car accident... and no one in your family or whoever will be responsible for your estate knows anything about IBD. They don't want or know what to do with your snakes, so they give them to a pet shop.

The pet shop has no clue about them, except that they're cool morphs.

And they get sold back into the reptile community....

THIS type of variable "what if" is why everyone is appalled at your attitude. There is no guarantee, no matter how good your intentions are at the moment, that you will be around (or will be capable of) caring for your snakes or in possession of your infected snakes forever.

Say you have to get rid of a few snakes to move or something - and you find someone who absolutely promises to take one of the boas "as a lifetime pet only". But later, they don't want the snake any longer or come on financial hardship, and for whatever other reason ignore their promise and sell the snake...

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

But I will share some information from the other 2/3 of people, lets say the true experts and what they have said.

1) a high % of boas if tested would show the presence of Inclusion bodies in there system.

Name the person that told you this. It is FALSE.