**IBD** TEST RESULTS**LAB REPORT***

[Chris Red]

 

[Chris Red]

Sorry for the huge page...everysnake owner should read

 

[Donnie Smith]

So I take it that the snake did not make it?  I know this is not the ususal place for such, but I have a small bit of advice for you... Practice STRICT quaranteen procedures from here on out.  Do not allow any two boids to come into coontact with each other.  Do not bring any new boids into your home.  Do not even THINK about selling any boids.  IBD is very bad news and should be taken as such.  Remember that you hold the number one killer of boas and pythons in your hand right now.  It's up to you to make sure that it doesn't leave your home.  After a year of completely asymptomatic snakes, then maybe... and only maybe... should you think about expanding your collection or selling snakes.

Sorry about your loss and the hard times to come.  Good luck.

-Morti.

 

[Chris Red]

I would say the guy that sold me the snake should try the same....I only had it two weeks...he had a few months before me

 

[Donnie Smith]

I understand that the point of this post is a warning about bad deals and whatnot, but here's the thing... It was his problem before you bought the snakes.  It is your problem now.  What he should and should not do is between he and his customers.  All of this accusing him and telling us what he should do does absolutely nothing to make me happy.  Either you will come to an agreement with him or you won't.  This does not concern me.  What does concern me is knowing that you will not knowingly infect other people's collections.  I would hate to sell one of my boas to someone only to have you sell a snake to them too and both snakes die.  All I am intrested in hearing you say is "Lesson learned.  I won't buy sick snakes again and I will do everything I can to help stop the spread of this epidemic."

Before you point any further fingers, consider the reception you have recieved with this problem already... It might be in your best intrest to own up, take responsibility for Your snakes, and stop trying to blame someone else who has already gone above and beyond making this right by sending you healthy animals to make up for sending you sick ones.

 

[Brian Oakley]

Your last paragraph Donnie is PRICELESS!
Chris, you need to move on.  What is done IS DONE and Bill HAS replaced the animal that was lost.  As you can see the "novelty" of this subject has warn off LONG AGO.  
Absolutely NOTHING will change where you are today and I would imagine nothing is going to change with Bill........and it would not if it were me either.  HE MADE GOOD, now let the snake die!
Brian Oakley

 

[Ciro Spina]

Wow! Holy f@#$in S@#T!!!!!  The herp community does stick together, even when wrong!  Hmmmm, nit pick a guys post, his name, every word he says...because he isn't a big name.

Just move on Chris Red???  If it were Chris Red who sent snakes with IDB he would be burned at the stake, no matter if he sent another 20 Surinames.  

Morti, how come you are only worried about what Chris Red does?  Why aren't you worried about what Bill Cagle does?  Didn't the IDB snakes come from him??  It would only bother you if you sold a boa to someone who Chris Red sells something too and your boa dies??  It wouldn't bother you if Bill Cagle sent the third of the trio to someone who you sold some boas to and your boa dies? You wrote that what Bill Cagle should or shouldn't do, doesn't make you happy.  Ohhh, I get it! Actually I don't get it.  Explain it.  

What Bill Cagle does is between him and his customers??  Didn't you write that?? Then what Chris Red does is between him and his customers, none of your business, correct?? How about a little impartiality??


However, Chris Red, if I were you, I would put all the snakes you got from him down.  Even the new ones.  Why risk it?  I would then disinfect everything with A-33 or some hospital cleaner that kills 99.99% of all viruses.  I also wouldn't bring anything new in for about 2 months (or whatever the time it takes for the virus to come out).

Disclaimer---I do not know Chris Red or Bill Cagle in any way shape or form---

Peace,

Ciro Spina

 

[Tony Basicas Weirdsnakes]

Just a note for Ciro.  Yes we yelled at Bill about the deal but he did not sell the original snakes as being perfectly healthy wonderful clean animals, they where sold at a reduced price and needed to be quarantined.  Chris was sooo worried about the health of the snakes when he got the first new snake from Bill he placed it and the other two including the IBD snakes into bags and took all 3 together to the vet !!  The original 2 where suppose to be kept quarantined and where already sold as imperfect hence the very reduced price for a pair of adult surinames !!  Chris has said that Bill has place other animals from the same group in his breeding colony after 2 months of quarantine which for many breeders is a fair time for quarantine and keep in mind that Boa Constrictors can carry IBD and never show physical signs to having the disease.  Anyway I will say this again for about the 12th time !!  Was Bill wrong in mis-sexing the original pair YES, did he go beyond maiking the deal right by sending another very nice animal from his private collection (That chris placed in contact with the IBD snake) because of the mis-sexing so he now has 3 adult surinames for $400.  He then had the snake die from IBD was Bill wrong in selling a less than perfect snake yes and no.  If he sold it as a perfectly healthy snake yes he would be responsible, did he sell it that way NO.  He had the animal for 2 months and it was alive, since there is NO test than can be performed while an animal is alive to determine IBD what else can be done other than continued quarantine and keeping your fingers crossed.  Do people sell less than perfect snakes all the time ?  Yes, you see it in the classifieds all the time that snakes are being sold at a reduced price because they aren't perfect.  I hate to say this but if the original pair where sold "as-is" at a reduced price Bill really isn't responsible to replace the sick snake !!!  This is just my 2 cents but it of course goes back to the same old addage if a deal seems to good to be true be careful !!!!!
As for why the herp community hasn't attacked Bill as hard, simply because Chris has simply just wanted more and more and more and has wanted well above and beyond what he should have gotten and eventhough it has constantly been pointed out he keeps wanting more even going so far as stating that Bill should be responsible for Chris's collection for I believe it was the next 2 years if anything dies !!  Yes Chris did admit that was a bit much, but that is just an example as to why he has been attacked.  Bill has made good on his deal and it is his and buyers responsibility now to be careful buying from him.

 

[bssnakes]

Ciro,
  Perfect !!  Fantastic !!  The truth does hurt!  But I for one am glad that you said it just like it should be said!!!!  Everyone wants to hear about the bad deals!! But you had better make sure that it does not include anyone who is well known!!

 

[Chris Red]

That's a full on lie..he sold the snakes as healthy...why would I buy sick snakes....why would he send more snakes if I bought them knowing they were sick...The only person that know was him....get the facts right..Tony what's wrong with you?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> I are ready told you I did not bring them in one bag to the vet....you need to pay attention. The Class. add read...killer tails and all that crap he says!!! would make great breeders.....

 

[Donnie Smith]

Ciro, This is why I said what I said.

I do not know Bill Cagle.  I haven't ever done business will Bill Cagle.  Knowing that Bill Cagle sold a sick snake to someone, I probably won't do business with Bill Cagle.  That having been said, I also don't want anything from Cagle.  I don't want to run him out of business.  I have no personal grudge against him.  He sold a sick snake without misrepresenting the snake.  However bad that may be, it is an honest business practice.  He also made this situation more than right in my eyes by sending a healthy snake from his personal collection.  I cannot see myself doing that in his situation, but to me it was above and beyond the requirements to rectify the situation.  This is why I felt no need to "attack" Cagle.  I think the original post by Chris served the purpose it should have had which is to be a warning agains possibly sick snakes.  Most of what was said and how it was said was an attack.

I was not attacking Chris whatever his name is.  Too much of that went on in the other thread started by him.  I don't believe in attacking people.  What I do believe in is doing what I can with the people I am speaking with.  At that time, I was posting something that I felt he needed to know which is a) how to deal with the possibility of having his entire collection infected with a retrovirus and b) how to aviod being attacked for what he was saying.  You are right.  If he wants to sell his snakes to other people, then there is nothing I can do about it.  But now he cannot say that he has not been made aware ot the gravity of this situation.  I suspect that Cagle already knows the gravity of the situation, but if he were here I would be in no way afraid to say the same thing to him.  Therefore Bill, If you are reading this, I would suggest the same quaranteen to you.

To Mr McCarthy:
I do not know exactly what truth you are refering to or how exactly I am supposed to be hurt by it, but I have no fear of exposing any bad deal coming from anyone regardless of their status, but you will never catch me attacking anyone.

Thanks for your time.
-Morti.

 

[napavalleysnakes]

This is quite an alarming post.. Now I'll also go with a disclaimer, just as Ciro did, that I do not know either Chris nor Bill.
I really am surprised Chris is receiving such a harsh response on the board.. Yes, Chris will need to practice stricter quarantine procedures, that's been established.  So has the fact Chris should not purchase any new boas, or sell any of his remaining collection until his animals receive a clean bill of health.  I think it's a little harsh though to tell Chris it's his responsibility to contain IBD, yet absolve Bill of any blame.  Bill is a big breeder and made a mistake, of which it appears he owned up to (through replacement animals).  Have to agree he came through on a rather bad deal for both the buyer and the seller.  But Bill also will need to ensure he has no other boas that could have been exposed.  It worries me when Chris states Bill has already put siblings to this boa into his breeding colonies.. Are they infected???  Good question.  Could they have been??  Another good question.  This forum is supposed to serve as a warning on bad dealers, and on possible dangerous situations in the herp community.  I think Chris is following the rules in his postings, and issuing a warning for any and all boa enthusiasts out there.  I really don't believe he should be chastized for it..

Just my opinion,   Stephen Emerick
                      Napa Valley Snakes     <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

 

[Darla Hulse]

I would like to here Bills version of the events. Is it common practice to sell sick wild caught snakes if you inform the buyer. That seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ciro Spina]

Tony,

I never saw the ad, does anyone have a link to the ad?  However, even if the ad said imperfect, imperfect means scars, kinked tail, etc.  I would never EVER expect imperfect to mean deadly virus, would  you???  

I understand that IDB can't be tested on live animals, but everyone who breeds boas or pythons should know the symptoms, right?  If your, or anyone elses, definition of imperfect includes viruses, shouldn't the seller inform the buyer of the symptoms and not just say, a little skinny or whatever??

I guess the important question would be what Mr. Cagle meant when he called them imperfect and what he told Chris Red.  Maybe Chris Red orBill Cagle should post their emails.  

Ciro

 

[Chris Red]

Ok....here you go emails from him....does this sound like I was buying  "as-is"  snakes. Besides who would buy a "as-is" snake





HEY CHRIS, YES THEY ARE UNRELATED AND COULD POSSIBLY BREED IN 2002. I WOULD
WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR JUST TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE PLENTY BIG. I NEVER RUSH MY
BOAS. IF THEY ARE TOO SMALL, THEY WILL PRODUCE VERY SMALL CLUTCHES. IT IS
ALWAYS BETTER TO WAIT AND GET A LARGER CLUTCH. IT ALSO PUTS LESS STRESS ON
THE FEMALE WHEN SHE HAS GOOD SIZE. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU DECIDE ASAP. I
HAVE SOMEONE ELSE INTERESTED.

THANKS, BILL




YES THEY ARE BOTH TAME. I'VE HAD THEM FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

THANKS, BILL





HEY CHRIS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. I WILL DO $420, BUT PLEASE DO NOT TELL
ANYONE YOU GOT THEM THIS CHEAP. I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP MY PRICES AS HIGH AS
POSSIBLE. I SELL LOTS OF BOAS BUT STILL LIKE TO MAKE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ON
EVERY SELL. I'M SURE YOU UNDERSTAND.

THANKS, BILL



HEY CHRIS, IT'S PROBABLY JUST WATER. SOMETIMES AFTER SHIPPING, THEY WILL
REGURGE WATER. I DIDN'T FEED HER, SO SHE DOES NOT HAVE A MEAL IN HER. GIVE
HER A FEW DAYS AND I AM SURE SHE WILL BE FINE.

THANKS AGAIN, BILL



I WOULD GIVE THEM A FEW MORE DAYS TO SETTLE IN AND THEN FEED THEM. I WAS
FEEDING BOTH F/T MEDIUM RATS.

THANKS, BILL




HEY CHRIS, I'M SORRY TO HEAR SHE IS NOT DOING ANY BETTER. I HAVE ANOTHER
ANIMAL THAT I GOT FROM DALE PICOLA THAT IS PASSING ALOT OF YELLOW FLUID. I'M
NOT SURE WHY THEY ARE DOING THIS, BUT I HAVE MINE ISOLATED FROM THE OTHERS
AND I WOULD SUGGEST YOU DO THE SAME. IF SHE IS NOT BETTER IN A FEW WEEKS I
WILL SEND YOU ONE OF MY PERSONAL ANIMALS. SORRY YOU ARE HAVING SUCH BAD LUCK
WITH HER. I THOUGHT SHE WAS OK OR I WOULD NOT HAVE SENT HER TO YOU. PLEASE
LET ME KNOW HOW SHE DOES.

THANKS, BILL





HEY CHRIS, I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND. I WILL SHIP YOU ONE OF MY FEMALES ON
THURSDAY FOR FRIDAY MORNING DELIVERY. SHE IS A VERY NICE ONE AND I THINK YOU
WILL BE VERY HAPPY WITH HER. I AM SORRY ABOUT THE OTHER ONE. I SHOULD HAVE
KEPT HER LONGER AND MADE 100% SURE SHE WAS OK BEFORE SELLING. I HAVE BEEN
TRYING TO GET HOLD OF DALE PICOLA (SAN DIEGO VIVARIUM) BUT HE IS AVOIDING MY
CALLS. HE IS REAL PIECE OF WORK! I WILL NOT BE BUYING ANYMORE ANIMALS FROM
HIM NEEDLESS TO SAY. WELL ANYWAY, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN SHE ARRIVES ON
FRIDAY. IF YOU AND YOUR VET CAN NURSE THE OTHER FEMALE BACK TO HEALTH, JUST
GO AHEAD AND KEEP HER TOO. I WOULD KEEP HER ISOLATED FROM THE OTHERS THOUGH.

THANKS, BILL

 

[HerpVenue]

okay.....it seems they were not sold "as is"  got the point...thanks.

but as far as I can tell from the letters....they were healthy and did not show any symptoms.

I once received "adopted" a snake with IBD.....  It took him like 4 months to show signs.  Luckily he was in another room because I did not have any room for him with the rest of my collection.  He was eating fine and everythng.......then one day he just started losing weight....started star gazing etc etc.   I could have ended up selling this snake while it was "healthy"  Would I be wrong for selling a seemingly healthy snake?....remember he did not show signs for the longest time.....and he was even eating.....

I was not flaming Chris whatever his real name is.  He has every right to warn everyone.   And I thank him for it.   But my feelings are
1. Bill sold the snakes "as is"  or they were sold as outwardly "healthy"

2.  When problems arose....he compensated chris for it.

3.  He is not responsible for Chris' WHOLE collection.  Chris should have practiced better quarantine procedures.

4.  Chris says he practiced good quarantine procedures and that the other snakes did not have any exposure from the sick one.   If this is true....then why is he so worried about the whole collection.............Somewhere in here is a lie.  It does not add.   I do not like lies

 

[bssnakes]

Donnie Smith,
        What I meant about the "truth" is simple. Ciro told it like it should be told. You were saying Chris should do this and Chris should do that. Well what about Bill?? It does not matter how Bill made things right after the fact. This thread would not be here if Bill had not sold some sick animals. Bill made it right by replacing the animals !! FANTASTIC!!! But in your one post you sound like you are putting the guilt on Chris!! What about Bill?? How do we know that he is not going to put someone else's collection at risk?? Why do you dump this burden on Chris??
  My point being! I think Bill made things right, by replacing the animals. So What? He is still at fault!! Do you think that Bill would be less at fault if Chris had to put down every snake that he owned? You say that you would like to hear Chris say "lesson learned"! Well I think a lot of people might like to hear Bill say it also!!!!
    Tom

 

[AZTEC FRED]

An amazeing thing

Ciro had the nerve, albeight the audacity to assume that what has transpired here was NOT Chris fault, but the fault of Bill Cagle.

If this were a human health issue, I doubt seriously if  people who wanted to know all the details would be discouraged from doing so.  On the  Boa forum,Chris was chided as being immature because he  complained vicariously about not only the promises made, to him but also to the illness of the snake that was sold to him. For this , he was told to "Give it a rest" or that "This doesnt belong here"
What I sense is that the people on that forum fear conflict, and would rather allow an injustice to happen, even if it potentially JEOPARDIZES snakes in their own collections, or a positive mood or tone, than engage in discussion about something as horrible as I.B.D. or Mr.Cagles busines practices.

I find it reprehensible, that a person who is taken advantage of, becomes an object of ridicule, in the name of keeping the peace, when frankly, the peace SHOULDN'T be kept if it allows evil to prosper. Yes, he got snakes in exchange for the one that was sick. And there will be those that said that was more than enough.
Q: Would you trust those SAME snakes  that were exchanged for the sick ones in YOUR collection?
A: I sure the #### would not.

Bill Cagle has blamed this mess on Dale Picolla, and subsequent to that , he layed the blame on Gary Sipperlys doorstep.  As usual, blame shifting is in full affect. And to top it off, members of that forum have laid the blame on the VICTIM, Chris, and said that he needed to back off or take it somewhere else.
Well....he did..he did the rsponsible thing and took it here.
And what happens? He gets lambasted for continueing to complain about it.  Amazeing

CIRO said it best. I guess when you get big enough it insulates you from haveing to TRULY answer for your wrongs. If that had been myself,Chris, Giantkeeper, or  any number of others, we would have never been able to sell a snake again, useing the boa forum as a marketing tool.
It is sad, neigh, pathetic that the accountability factor isnt being examined here. Chris showed as well as he could that he was wronged, that a potentially harmfull virus may or may not be floating around in the person collection that he bought these snakes from.  That should send off alarams.
It doesnt
I dont understand it.
Is it because we dont want to HEAR them.
Or because it is easier to blame the victim for
being the victim....than the perpetrator for being
the perpetrator


YOU were here...discussing this same type of issue, concerning Bill Cagle and a sick snake some 6 odd months ago.
anybody remember that?
And the young man that posted that complaint came under the same kind of fire that this one has.
When will you draw that same wrath upon the man that sold him that sick snake and potentially may sell you one , (unbenounced to him..of course) as well.
When does it become truly important?
When YOU become the victim instad of Chris, or Kemper, or a host or forum regulars that complain but never speak up?


                     Its a strange world we live in.

                     Evil is perceived as good, and cloaked

                     in a blanket of rightousness.  True good,

                     often is assaulted and maligned UNJUSTLY.

                       And small people lose their voice to

                             tyranny and are paralyzed by their

                                 own fears and greed..


                                            Fred Albury

                                            (Aztec Reptiles)

 

[KelliH]

Wow. Fred, you expressed what I have been feeling these last few days exactly. We do not have a huge boa collection but we do have a few. We also have several pythons in our collection as well. I was initially amazed (and I guess I still am) that so many people just want Chris to drop the issue, and I am really bothered by the fact that so many are trying to put the blame on Chris somehow for not practicing proper quarantine procedures. I mean let's be honest for just a minute here, how many of us have brought a new snake into our collections without a proper quarantine period, especially when we were less experienced keepers? I think that Bill Cagle is completely at fault here as he supposed to be the "professional" (not) and have so much experience in boa constrictor husbandry. Bill Cagle should not be brokering animals which he knows are not healthy. Does anyone disagree with that statement? "He should not be buying and reselling animals which he knows are not healthy".
Just my opinion, for what it is worth. Good luck Chris, I feel for you.

 

[Brian Oakley]

Fred,
I agree with what you said completely.  I personally have not blamed Chris.  In fact I was ridiculed on the forum for attempting to get the individuals name and I have supported Chris all the way.  I was insulted by a couple "resident experts" there on teh forum for various things.  THIS DISEASE KILLS PYTHONS DEAD!  Get it through your heads folks.  I do not know why it reacts differently in Boas.  I am also not really convinced it does.  I am going on the "resident experts" words.  It amazes me that these "resident experts" know so #### much about this disease, but the individuals who are studying it daily know less than they do?!?!?!
This is important and Bill DOES NEED to address this issue in regards to his future business.  Who cares where it came from (for this case anyway), Bill sold the animal.  Due to that, regardless of how long he had it, he is accountable.
The ONLY thing I have stated that Chris may not have liked is that 1.  he was asking for too much.  At the point he took in the "replacement snakes", the one in question was not even dead.  Bill made good.  Does that change the fact that he sold a dying snake?  Does that mean the snake REALLY had it when BIll sold it?  Does that mean there were signs of this PRIOR to Bill selling it?  WHO KNOWS AND WHO CARES.  What is done is done.  Chris is in a bad situation that NOBODY can change.
Nobody wants to talk about this disease.  Do you find it odd people?  You should.  Do you find it odd that almost everything I said on the forum (right or wrong it was an opinion BASED ON FACTS) has been deleted.  Here is a copy/paste of the rules of the forum....We ask that you refrain from making personal attacks. Anything considered off-topic, abusive, or obscene will be edited. Advertising anything, except for events, is prohibited here.
So it is clear to me that a disease that COULD POSSIBLY (read that carefully folks) wipe out a collection is off topic.  I cannot see where else it would fall in the rules.  I suppose the truth hurts and nobody wants to see this.
Is it because your "big time breeders" are selling snakes with the same thing and KNOW IT!  I have heard stories through the years.  Just something to think about.  From what I know and I am not going on first hand knowledge, Pete Kahl had this disease in his collection.  This was brought to my attention by someone on the forum last week which I already knew, but what the ####. The person went on to say that Pete was honest about ait and it has not hurt his business.  It sure shouldn't hurt his bussiness when he put down HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars worth of snakes just to keep things safe.  GOD BLESS HIM FOR THAT!  I respect that a great deal.  Others have asked me if I would do that with a Sunglow, an albino, a whatever.  The answer is I WOULD IN A HEARTBEAT and so should everyone else.  
I could go on, but I will not.  THis post is NOT directed at anyone in particular so please do not send all the fan mail.  Respond if you wish, but NOBODY is going to change the way I feel and the way I THINK all should feel about the uncertain.
Brian Oakley