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Iinferital supers?

P

Pythonbreeder99

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Has anybody else heard about this? Super Jungles as well as Super Motleys have yet to produce. There is many talk about why this is and honistly I have no idea why this is happening, does anybody know? I would really be interested in hearing what everyone has to say.
 
As far as I know, no Super Jungles have produced to date. (just learned that actually :D )

But there is one female Super who is apparently gravid right now. (recently learned that too :yesnod:)
 
I saw a blurb somewhere from Tracey at VPI about getting x rays done on the super mots. Something about missing or very under developed muscles interfering with the males mating I believe.

As for the pregnant Super Jungle, fingers crossed but :?party:
 
I spoke with PK about this through email and he said he has experienced poor breeding with super jungles, I asked if this had to do with possible inbreeding and if females are possibly fertile, he said he is just getting to that this season and will know more this summer. Its good news that the female super is gravid! I would like to catch up with Pete this summer and see what he came up with.

My personal thoughts are that when a new morph comes out, like the jungle, people want to find a super, so you find a whole lot of daughter to dad, mom to son, etc.. breedings and a lot of defects. Albino females for example, for a long time people said would not breed, now people have much more success which i think is due to out crossing. I used to hear and i still see a lot of sharp line albinos come out with no eyes and defects from inbreeding. Hopefully with out crossing the jungle gene we can have fertile male super jungles, only time will tell.
 
bear said:
I spoke with PK about this through email and he said he has experienced poor breeding with super jungles, I asked if this had to do with possible inbreeding and if females are possibly fertile, he said he is just getting to that this season and will know more this summer. Its good news that the female super is gravid! I would like to catch up with Pete this summer and see what he came up with.

My personal thoughts are that when a new morph comes out, like the jungle, people want to find a super, so you find a whole lot of daughter to dad, mom to son, etc.. breedings and a lot of defects. Albino females for example, for a long time people said would not breed, now people have much more success which i think is due to out crossing. I used to hear and i still see a lot of sharp line albinos come out with no eyes and defects from inbreeding. Hopefully with out crossing the jungle gene we can have fertile male super jungles, only time will tell.
Click to expand...

Breeding an offspring back to a parent to prove or disprove a trait, ain't as bad as it sounds. That would be line breeding rather then inbreeding. It's the continuation of such practices that mess things up down the line. You brought up albinos...It's all the Albino x Albino breedings that caused the problems. These anomalies that started appearing in Albinos didn't make themselves present until after some time passed, and half the nation HAD to get rich making Albinos. They took short cuts, and in no time at all, problems started appearing.

As for Pete Kahl, well, you go ahead and talk to him. He does know some things, I'll give him that. But his breeding practices aren't the smartest out there. He's one of those that WILL breed siblings with no thought to the diversity problem he's creating.

Just an FYI. :thumbsup:
 
Funny, I thought it was the Kahl line albinos that had all (or most of) the eye issues....
 
hhmoore said:
Funny, I thought it was the Kahl line albinos that had all (or most of) the eye issues....
Click to expand...

I spoke with a breeder whose name i wont mention last month who had i think 18 or 19 out of 20 eyeless babies in a sharp sunglow breeding due to breeding parent to offspring.
 
This is the first I have heard of eye issues popping up in the sharp line as well.

As for super jungles being infertile, it's been speculated that supers must have been bred by now, either they were not successful or the outcome was 'unpleasant' or not what was expected... however no one has been forthcoming with any factual data, at least not that I have seen. Now that more people have supers, we'll hopefully, finally, get some results shared with us 'common' hobbyists. ;)

I can't wait to see the results of that super female that is gravid from the links above and I really hope for good things because I think the supers are so neat and 'futuristic' looking.

I don't know about any super motleys having been bred. Rumors abound that they do not survive very long. I know someone that has a super that's a couple years old now, but I can't remember if it's male or female (might not be breeding age yet).
 
bear said:
I spoke with a breeder whose name i wont mention last month who had i think 18 or 19 out of 20 eyeless babies in a sharp sunglow breeding due to breeding parent to offspring.
Click to expand...

Gotta wonder if there isn't some "other" close relationship breeding involved in the parental stock earlier on. :shrug01:

That's the first I've heard about the Sharp line doing the same as the Kahl line though.
 
I've seen ads for messed up Sharp's when I was looking for a boy to prove out the poss het girl I have. Seen a couple one eyed albinos, a formed eye but blind & a one eyed sunglow. No where near as many as for kahl's though. I checked my notes but when I put them down as people to avoid I didn't specify the strain.

I figured the Sharp keepers were better at culling. They do have the financial motivation for it that a lot of the kahl breeders/keepers don't. As long as people think the Sharp line doesn't have the issue it will continue to gain popularity & be viewed as the safe strain.

I'm not smack talking people who work with kahl's line either. I do & that's why I'm hoping the girl doesn't prove out. Gonna mess up my plans if she does.

A pessimistic note on the super jungle, I hope it really is a super & not just a high expression. I mean think about it, with having been breed before isn't it still just speculation that they are supers?

I'll hunt back down the info I found on Super Mots sometime this week. It was odd as hell, but came from people that have decent reputations.

All four of these gene's are examples of not enough real work being down on a morph before it's dumped in the market. You would think people would care about producing Healthy animals. The jungle & motleys are really pathetic, they're not recessive. There isn't the slightest legit excuse for them to have been inbred so badly.
 
A pessimistic note on the super jungle, I hope it really is a super & not just a high expression. I mean think about it, with having been breed before isn't it still just speculation that they are supers?
Click to expand...
Its definitely a super jungle. Super jungles all have very distinct eyes. There is no mistaking a super jungle.
 
Yeah they have caramel like orange eyes, very distinct. But i can name you 3 breeders off the top of my head that have produced eyeless sharp sunglows (of coarse i wont do that) but trust me, look around for awhile or talk to the sharp breeders and you'll find plenty of eyeless.
 
Super Motleys die before they reach maturity. If you look around at all of the known motley breeders who have produced super motleys, you will not find a single picture of a 10 pound or heavier adult. I would be surprised if they ever hit 5 pounds. Super motleys start out good, they eat well and start to grow. At somewhere around 18 months and even sooner they start to decline. They eat less and develope symptoms that mimick IBD. I am not saying they have IBD, but they develope symptoms just like IBD, and then they die.

There is something about super motleys that just doesn't line up properly. Their head is shaped differently, their scales are differant, they look dehydrated when they are born, they just aren't right. I have heard of a super motley central american male that was producing sperm plugs, but I don't know if it ever bred anything.

The fact that super motleys die has absolutly nothing to do with inbreeding. All super motley siblings go on to reach maturity and do just fine, this includes the normal motleys and the normal boas in the same litter.

Producing super motleys is a waiste of life. They don't live and never will. A lot of the big name breeders know this and they still won't speak openly about it. There would be a lot of angry people who paid big bucks or traded a lot of stuff to get one.

I have a pair of motleys and I will never breed them together.

This subject has been talked about on a bunch of forums on other sites. I think super motleys are totally worthless. With all of the discussions that have taken place on this subject, there are actually some people still trying to produce them. I had someone offer me a super motley last year for 50 bucks and I said no thanks, true story. You couldn't give me a super motley.

So, if you are smart you will stay away from super motleys. Supers motleys are geneticaly flawed and will never be right, no matter how outcrossed. Motleys are great animals, you will enjoy them, just don't get a super motley.

As for super jungles, there is a gravid female from what I understand. It has not given birth yet, so don't count your chickens before they hatch, or in this case, don't count your boas before they are born. I am not critisizing here, I am only being real. Until they are born, then a super jungle has not produced, being gravid, and producing live babies is not the same.

I have heard that a super jungle has produced, but I can't say for sure where I heard it, so I don't know.

Both albino strains have proven eye defects. I think you see it more in the Kahl strain because there is a lot more of them out there. The Kahl albinos have now been outcrossed so much, people are now having good success breeding an albino to albino,or sunglow to albino with good results.

With any animal, if after a few years, you don't see pictures of adults, it should throw up a red flag. You all know how people love showing off their animals in the forums, so if something isn't showing up after a while, ask yourself why.
 
Good post Brian. I don't know much about the super jugles but what you said about the super mots is right on. You can produce them, and they may actually be fertile, but at 18 months they just go downhill. Neurological problems, weak bone development..... might be an issue with calcium?? Either way just not worth trying to produce.

But the Motley gene is still pretty wicked in the heterozygous form. Treat it like a dominant gene and have fun with it. Producing Sunglow Mots is a nice goal to have in life....:thumbsup:
 
saw this at the local reptile show on Saturday...
SMRS_RandyWright_1eyesharpsunglo-1.jpg


:(
 
That's a crying shame. I guess people didn't learn from all the bad Kahl Albino x Albino breedings. Now the Sharp's are coming out the same, and likely the same cause too. :ack2:

People want to get into it for the money, but common sense says if you're producing deformed neonates, there just ain't gonna be a lot of money to be made like that. Is it really worth it to spend all your money on a project, then not take your time and do it right, only to end up with results like that? :shrug01:

What's even more shameful is to see it for sale. Sell out your reputation for a mere $375. Yeah, that'll get you far in life. :rolleyes:
 
crotalusadamanteus said:
What's even more shameful is to see it for sale. Sell out your reputation for a mere $375. Yeah, that'll get you far in life. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

:iagree:
I was really sad when I saw it for sale at the show. If someone won't cull this defect and wants to sell their deformed snakes as a 'pet only' to someone they trust won't beed it, fine but to offer to the general public (at such a low price) just didn't seem very ethical to me.
 
AbsoluteApril said:
:iagree:
I was really sad when I saw it for sale at the show. If someone won't cull this defect and wants to sell their deformed snakes as a 'pet only' to someone they trust won't beed it, fine but to offer to the general public (at such a low price) just didn't seem very ethical to me.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
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