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In need of opinions...

I spoke with some of the Penn vets....

They don't know of any current genetic studies on bearded dragons and blame 2 reasons for that. First and most important is a lack of funding. Studies with implications for human medicine advances are far more likely to receive grants and reptile DNA is just too different from human so there's no money in it.

Second is that bearded dragon genetics are "boring". Just as all breeds of dogs are genetically nearly identical to their wolf ancestors, there is very little difference in the DNA of bearded dragons. I'm told there are more differences in the DNA of 2 mice from the same litter who are different colors than between a leucistic and a high-red vitticeps. Even leucistic dragons carry the genetic potential for all the pigments, it's just that they don't display them. There is a level of interest as to why they don't, but not enough to overcome the lack of funding. Mouse genetics are both more interesting and easier to apply to human medicine so geneticists don't tire of studying them further.

The "boring" part hasn't been conclusively determined yet, though, as nobody has mapped out the entire genome. That's a huge project which needs a lot of funding. They have isolated genes for all the pigments in leucistics though and feel that their boring label is justified.
 
" Just as all breeds of dogs are genetically nearly identical to their wolf ancestors, there is very little difference in the DNA of bearded dragons. I'm told there are more differences in the DNA of 2 mice from the same litter who are different colors than between a leucistic and a high-red vitticeps."

That's what I initialy thought. So they all must be related anyway. We (humans) tend to hminize our animals. We don't take into account that they are lower level life froms.
 
No, it doesn't imply a close relationship when DNA isn't that different, just that there isn't much genetic variation amongst the species. This is why genetics geeks don't call different colored beardies "morphs" as there never was a genetic metamorphosis, it's just a color "phase".

Snakes actually have different genetics when they display different colors. Yet the individual snakes may be just as closely related. A nornal snake het for albinism is a very close relative to its albino clutchmate yet genetically far different than any two beardies are.

You could never detect inbreeding from this genetic information, for example. Just like you couldn't imply a chihuahua and a timber wolf were first cousins because of all the similarities in their DNA.
 
What kind of bedding was used?

I have a friend who used bed a beast and he kept dragons and one day after changin to bed a beast they almost all dies. Out of 4 3 died and so he took the remaining one to the vet a day later. They vet checked it out and it was suffering from something i am not sure what exactly but it had to do with th bedding. The dragon diead a few days after that and so i just was wondering ifthe same thing might have hapend?
 
No, I was not using Bed-a-Beast for my dragons. I really don't know anyone that WOULD, but okay.
The beardeds were kept on papertowels as I have always kept youngsters. They get moved to sand once they hit about 10 inches or more.
 
I use dry Bed a Beast....

and have used it for many years. I did a study of my 68 hatchlings this year in fact. I kept 34 on paper towels and 34 on bed a beast, and did weekly fecal checks on them. My vet friends sent the fecals in for analysis.

The beardies kept on bed-a-beast did not eliminate ANY solid fibers but did have slight elevations in the cellulose levels in their feces, indicating that it is indeed digestible. Epigastric lavages did not find any evidence of coconut husk fibers in the digestive tracts.

Bed a beast is the only substrate I've yet tested that passes the hydrochloric acid test for digestibility. Make a damp, compressed ball of the substrate of your choice and let it dry into a hard clump. Cover it with a 5% hydrochloric acid solution and let it stand for 20 minutes. If it dissolves, the substrate is not likely to cause an acute blockage. If not it is an impaction risk. Even alfalfa pellets did not dissolve in less than 3 hours and foods are generally not in contact with stomach acids for anywhere near that long.

Bed a beast is ground coconut husk which is primarily cellulose, as is paper towel or newspaper.

Since I don't live anywhere near a feed store I've not yet been able to test wheat bran to see if it passes the acid test, or if any is recovered with an epi-l.
 
Rob, I talked with a friend at a lab in Louisiana and he asked if you know if the mealworms were raised outside( I know, hard to know this)

Seems there is some suspect that beetles that could be toxic to bearded dragons could be attracted to the substrate that the worms(they are beetles later) are kept in. If they excrete in the substrate and the worms get that on them or eat it, there is a possibility the beardies are picking it up a toxin from contact with them.

Lightening bugs are deadly to beardies, even part of one can kill a full grown healthy beardie and they do not affect other reptiles.
He points out that mealworms will feed on anything that get in their area.

Make me think about the other gems running around in mealworms I have seen or bought in the past... scary!
 
HOw interesting. I have never before thought of the possibility that they prey items may have ingested other prey items that are poisonous. Perhaps it would be a good idea to inquire to your cricket/worm supplier whether or not the prey items are raised outside.
 
Lightening bugs are deadly to beardies, even part of one can kill a full grown healthy beardie and they do not affect other reptiles.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about the source of this statement, b/c I know that lightning bugs will flat out kill birds and spiders, as well as beardies. The problem specific to beardies and other imported lizards is not a particular sensitivity to the toxins so much as not having ever developed an aversion to eating them, as many NA species of animal have.

Here's a paper on firefly toxins from Cornell News:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/July99/firefly_lizard.hrs.html

Based on this, I wouldn't feed fireflies to any animal.
 
I agree not recommending feeding them to any animals, but other animals do eat them and not seem to be affected. This is from only seeing them eat, not following the animals after, I never even thought of it. Here where I live we have to be very careful when we have the beardies outside that no fireflys are around. We have cuban brown anoles and green ones that do eat them and I have never seen one die. That not saying it may not kill them, just I have never observed it.

From articles in reptile magazines and newspaper reports they have only mentioned them in regards to bearded dragons that I had seen, thank you for the URL to the Cornell study, I can see from it that tree frogs, rock lizard and chameleons have died after eating them.

Even that study mentions the PA zoo that put them outside and the dragons died, test showed it was the fireflies, I never thought about that it could be the other reptiles that were put outside were not eating them and that may be why they were not affected. Would be interesting to see more studies.

It is a good point to avoid letting any animals eat them, better safe than sorry. From what I have read they state it is not the chemical that casue them to "light up" but a self denfense toxin.. do you know any other insects that also have this type of toxin?
 
The anoles probably have the advantage of knowing what will kill them and what won't, too. It's interesting that the article notes that beardies eat aussie fireflies, though. I wonder if the aussie flies would kill the anoles....
 
Interesting that many australian animals are poisioned by them.

Just for general reference, here is a Picture of a larva of a lightening bug/firefly, I don't know if it would have the same toxins at this strage as the adult does, but it wouldn't hurt to be famaliar with what they look like just in case we spot any in with mealworms we buy. larva stage of lightening bug

Thanks again for that URL, I have been reading a lot of the site it links to also.
 
Dang, talk about an ugly baby.

Hey, speaking of ugly bugs, do you guys have these in your area:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.watson/psg122.htm

These guys are utterly evil. Shoot a really noxious acid when disturbed sometimes. Used to have them all over around us when I was a kid. (In New Port Richey). Got sprayed up the nose and throat by one once, and it was the most irritating thing I've ever experienced. (Military CS gas was mild by comparison.)

Ok, that was off topic, but I was thinking about evil bugs after seeing that larval pic.
 
I've never seen that one, but I think it does take the ugly award. We only have the ones that look like brown sticks here. They are native to Belize, so since NPR is close to Tampa Bay, they probably have entered the county through there, I was looking at some of Mark Watsons other pics, gawd....... those are sick! climbing on his face! phew
 
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