Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

[colubridman88]

Not a Flaw, An anomoly

Albinism is not a flaw, it is an anomoly. The only thing that is flawed is your opinon on the health of albino animals. They are not physically(with the acception of appearance) different, thier organs are still in the same place and they still function normally. However in the wild, Albino animals health is comprimised, not because of health issues, but because of predation.
Albinism is a chance occurance. Some genetisists theorize that it is literally a one in a million shot. Just a few thoughts on a good issue.
Jesse Smith

 

[colubridman88]

Oops

That was a reply for dembinski

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jesse,

They are not physically(with the acception of appearance) different, thier organs are still in the same place and they still function normally.

Yes, I agree except for one thing. Albinos lack the pigment melanin. Melanin protects the skin from UV radiation. It also protects the retina (in the eye) from the same rays. That's why people with albinism have to take extra precautions (hat, clothing, dark shades) to protect themselves from the sun.

However in the wild, Albino animals health is comprimised, not because of health issues, but because of predation.

True. And also due to the fact that they can be spotted easier by potential prey items.

[/QUOTE]Albinism is a chance occurance. Some genetisists theorize that it is literally a one in a million shot. Just a few thoughts on a good issue.[/QUOTE]

The spontaneous occurrence might be one in a million as you say. But once you breed to albinos together it's 1 in 1 (unless they are genetically incompatible like for example the Kahl and Sharp strains in albino boa constrictors).

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Some genetisists theorize that it is literally a one in a million shot.

Which geneticists?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Well...it seems not only albinos are showing the problem. On second thought maybe an albino carrying a defective gene was also involved in producing this snow.

Female Snow boa. (good deal)
The Great Northeast
Posted by XX on December 10, 2003 at 17:29:49

This female snow is about 2 feet long and doing great. It only has one eye though. It will eat every time you feed it, and doesn't act any different than one with 2 eyes. I will sell it for $1000 less than regular retail price. Please e-mail for price and pics.

 

[The BoidSmith]

keep em' coming!

My apologies for keep posting these, but IMHO it is getting out of proportion, and as breeders, businesses, and herp lovers we should be more responsible for what we are doing here. These animals need to be withdrawn from the market. Period. By selling these "adult breeders" at discount prices we are perpetuating and compounding a problem. What we are not allowing nature to do in it's own (natural selection), we should do ourselves. If you can't afford a defect free albino but you still want to buy a one-eyed animal, at least don't breed these animals.

Just the HO of a concerned herpetologist.

2 Albino Boas Male Adult Breeders $1500/$2500
Florida
Posted by "X" (Contact Me!) on December 23, 2003 at 15:37:23

Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

(2) Albino Male Adult Breeders. #1 Albino Male was Proven last season $2500 Firm. #2 Albino Male missing 1 eye, but he did show breeding activity last season $1500 Firm. Both Albinos are excellent jumbo rat feeders, & both are pictured above. Sorry no trades, Thank you,

 

[The BoidSmith]

Albino Boas

Date Posted: 11/05/2003

Price 0.00($USD): $1,700.00 pr.

Age: 4 months

Size: 17 in.

Description

1.1 albino boas born 6-7-03 the female is healthy and eating nonstop the male has an eye impairment but other than that he is eating nonstop also
Contact Information

State/Province: Maryland

 

[The BoidSmith]

Why don't we see any blind or one-eyed albino ball pythons for sale? Checking the ads for both boas and ball pythons for a while there have been several eye problems showing-up in boas, although I haven't seen even one in ball pythons. There has to be an explanation for that. It is not likely that ball python breeders haven't been using inbreeding as they do with boas. Is this just a species difference? Any speculations?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Just as speculation here...

There were a few things which were mentioned earlier in this thread which could have a huge impact on the tendency for this deformity crop up and some of them can be explained by the reproductive differences inherent in the animals...

Just as a recap kinda thing for anyone hopping on this thread at this point who doesn't bother to read through, there were a few proposed reasons that might explain the tendency for albino boas to have eye problems-

• It could potentially be a gene which is indirectly linked to the bloodlines. Meaning; only a few albino boas have been found in the wild and added to the captive breeding population, this means that many of the boas in the hobby share a good number of genes. While the traits of albinism and eye problems are not directly linked, both exist in the same gene pool and are reinforced with every breeding.
• Formative differences that affect boas far more than pythons... Since boas incubate internally, the temperature and conditions encountered by the developing neonates are directly related to the conditions the mother is kept in or chooses to keep herself in. Because albinos tend to be light sensitive, it was proposed that gravid females may shy away from the warmer ends of their enclosures, causing the babies to develop at lower temperatures and be more prone to physical deformities. Eyes are just more noticeable than internal problems.
• Directly linked genetics... Something about the mutation which stops melanin production also changes the way in which the eyes grow before birth and/or repair themselves afterwards.

One thing I can't remember... are these deformities cropping up more in Khal or Sharp strain albinos? Are the numbers for each proportional with the numbers produced (I think the breeding population of Khal's is larger)?

And once again, as has already been said... Most breeders are under considerable financial burden when it comes to animal production. The profit margins are razor thin, the overhead is enormous... it's simply an impossibility for the majority of individuals producing these animals to take five or six years (minimum) to try isolating the problem's source.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Seamus,

One thing I can't remember... are these deformities cropping up more in Khal or Sharp strain albinos? Are the numbers for each proportional with the numbers produced (I think the breeding population of Khal's is larger)?

So far I haven't seen one Sharp strain with eye problems. Then again this can be explained by the fact that it's fairly new so ther hasn't been a lot of inbreeding taking place yet.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Another one.

MALE ALBINO BOA FOR NEXT SEASON
FL
Posted by CENTRAL FLORIDA REPTILE BREEDERS (Contact Me!) on January 24, 2004 at 23:06:31

02 3-4 ft Kahl Male with one bad eye. He is in excellent condition a strong feeder and has retained excellent color. He will be a great breeder for hets or outcross projects. $2000

 

[BryonsBoas]

Didn't read all of the posts

But is there a way to for someone to sterilize these "deformed" animals so they can't breed and can be kept as merely pets instead of being killed to be sold as cobra food?I'm working on a few projects and have been asked why i buy the amount of normals that i do for these projects. The answer to that question was sitting on an individuals table as a snake with kinks in its spine that hampered movement. Fresh blood is always helpful not just in snakes but people as well . Look at some of the "mountain populations" from years ago. They were all related and were showing signs of breeding depression.

Another problem is breeders/dealers that sell animals as a pair from the same clutch or litter and doesn't represent them as being related.


Bryon Adzic

There was an article in Reptiles magazine of a normal burm whose eyes were so small they were hidden under its scales. Inbreeding was figured as the problem.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Re: Didn't read all of the posts

But is there a way to for someone to sterilize these "deformed" animals so they can't breed and can be kept as merely pets instead of being killed to be sold as cobra food?

Even if there was, no one is willing to do it as long as they can ask $1,000 for a breedable animal. Who is going to pay even half that money for a one-eyed, sterile individual?

I'm working on a few projects and have been asked why i buy the amount of normals that i do for these projects.

Well thought!

Another problem is breeders/dealers that sell animals as a pair from the same clutch or litter and doesn't represent them as being related.

Yes, you can see that often. Even when the vision impaired animal out of a clutch is sold cheaper to an individual or a broker for re-sale, there are some among that clutch that possibly carry the defect in their genes.

Regards.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Thats a shame

That anyone would use a dollar figure to represent the kind of person they are. I personally have mostly normals in my collection with a few hets to eventually prove out but my collection will still have a good number of normals for genetic diversity. It'll take longer to produce what i want to produce but my animals won't be inbred into stupidity.

With the right breeding plan any project could produce abnormal animals but to buy siblings or related animals knowingly for the purpose of breeding together for a quicker financial gain doesn't say much about the quality of that person.

Even in my collection i have plans of rotating out adults , some will be sold or traded to make room for fresh blood for the sole purpose of NOT producing substandard animals. As a parent of a special needs child (granted different species) the financial and physical hardships of his needs taught me alot about what not to do. An animal may not need hospitalization once a month but i would imagine the work and money involved to keep one that is abnormal would amount to quite a bit over time.

Can't see putting my reputation on the line over a quick buck.
Sorry for rambling or if i got off subject .

Bryon Adzic

 

[BryonsBoas]

Out of curiosity

I know that Jeff Ronne uses Kahl strain albinos for his breeding stock . Even with the outcrossing he's done wouldn't both be genetically compatable and would the outbreeding that Jeff has done minimize the problem if the Ronne albinos were bred to Kahl albinos.I know Pete Kahl sent an albino to Brian Sharp but didn't Brian use a WC albino to start his strain?

Bryon Adzic

Read the rest of the threads finally

 

[The BoidSmith]

I know Pete Kahl sent an albino to Brian Sharp but didn't Brian use a WC albino to start his strain?

Both strains are not genetically compatible. Both albinos that initiated each strain were WC individuals. In my opinion the difference resides in that the Sharp strain is still new in the market, and thus there are very little animals available. From what we see in the ads even finding females hetero for Sharp is difficult. It will be some time before massive inbreeding takes place with the Sharp strain.

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Please keep in mind that there is nothing inherently wrong with the action of inbreeding herps.

Inbreeding can't create problems unto itself, it simply strengthens conditions which were already present in the gene pool. IF the eye problems have a genetic cause, linked or not- it was introduced to the gene pool at some point early enough in the development of the project to have spread rapidly to many collections and breeding groups. Chances are good that some snake early on, either the albino itself OR one of the other animals it was introduced to, or the first couple generations of offspring were introduced to while the project was proving out, was carrying something which had the potential to cause these deformities.

Inbreeding isn't the problem, the lack of proper culling is the problem. People are unwilling to lose out on the profit that there is to be made by selling deformed boas... same goes for buying one at a discount to add the elbino genes to their own breeding project. The responsible thing to do when situations like this arise would be to euthanize all the neonates in any group which produces even a single neonate with the deformity and to separate the parents, removing them permanently from the breeding population. If this was done, and if the cause is genetic (seems likely these days), then the problem would be virtually eliminated withina few years... Albino boa production would plummet like a rock though, forcing prices up to the level they were a couple years ago as the avaliable pool of animals dwindles.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I'm gonna pretend that "elbino genes" was deliberate... yeah... that's it, it was a joke... Not a typo, a joke...

 

[The BoidSmith]

Yes, I agree.

Please keep in mind that there is nothing inherently wrong with the action of inbreeding herps.

In fact most of the purebred traits in other domestic species were selected by close inbreeding.

[/QUOTE]Inbreeding can't create problems unto itself, it simply strengthens conditions which were already present in the gene pool.[/QUOTE]

Good point. It does that both for desirable as well as undesirable traits.

Chances are good that some snake early on, either the albino itself OR one of the other animals it was introduced to, or the first couple generations of offspring were introduced to while the project was proving out, was carrying something which had the potential to cause these deformities.

I agree. And the fact is that it was maybe done unknowingly. The problem (at least from my perspective) is that know it's been done on putpose. Someone buys an animal with an eye problem and pays half the price of a flawless individual (that could very well be carrier of the trait also). He then breeds it and perpetuates or further compounds the problem. If he gets 2-3 animals with eye defects they will be sold at a discounted price while the "normals" will go for the ongoing market price. The problem lies when I see a breeder selling an adult animal with the defect. In all honesty I don't know if he used this animal in his breeding programs or not. Are his snakes carriers?

[QUOTEInbreeding isn't the problem, the lack of proper culling is the problem.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. But if only one defect shows-up in a litter, was it at random? Should he euthanize the whole group? What about the sire and the dam?

... Albino boa production would plummet like a rock though, forcing prices up to the level they were a couple years ago as the avaliable pool of animals dwindles.

Yes I agree, but the way this is going is far worse. I would rather see the prices soar because of smaller numbers of healthy animals are being produced than the downward spiral we are seeing right now.

That's why I like the incomplete dominance. More than likely a breeder will start with one animal and breed it to "fresh" normal blood to produce 50% offspring for that trait.

Regards.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Curiosity question

Jeff Ronne used / uses Kahl strain albino for his projects . Has anyone heard of any defective animals coming from him or do you think it might have been someone using substandard animals to produce Kahl albinos and went from there?

Unfortunately , if some people were given the choice of a cheaper albino with a " slight defect" the breeder glosses over they'll jump on it in a heartbeat . So how do you regulate individuals using defective animals other than educating as many as you can not to buy/use those animals?

Bryon Adzic