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Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

From a strictly economical perspective, introducing new genes in the pool will set the breeder back 3-4 years before being able to produce albinos again from the hetero offspring.

That in a nutshell is the problem. One of the largest inhibitors of eliminating such undesirable mutations from the gene pool is the bottom line. If they are originating the strain, they are in a hurry to cash in. If they are entering the market early, they want to make their money before everyone is breeding them and the prices crash.

In this day and age, we as breeders can safely assume that most every snake we sell will at some point be bred, or at least the attempt be made, either by the purchaser or by someone else down the line. It seems that everyone who owns two leopard geckos feels they have to hatch some more.

This leaves it up to the breeders to do the culling, something which far too few are willing to do, especially with the valuable morphs. The fact that you see so many one eyed albinos etc. is testament to the fact.
Rather than put the snake down, many will merely discount it and sell it anyway. This almost assures that its genes will remain in the collective pool. The more valuable the morph, the higher that assurance. Someone who really wants an albino boa, but can't afford it will see the one eyed specimen as a cost effective way to get into the morph market.
To me this is simply unethical. Maybe not in the classical sense of right and wrong, but definately in the big picture of furthering our hobby.
Breeders are not responsible for just hatching eggs so the rest of the people can have a snake. They also bear a certain degree of responsibility of improving the bloodlines, or at least not degrading them, whether they accept that responsibility or not.

Snakes with physical deformities from birth, even if they will not affect the snake's ability to breed or quality of life should be culled. They should be, by some method, removed from the gene pool entirely. While all deformities are not genetic, who is to say which are and which are a result of environmental factors during incubation?
The problem is when someone is looking at a $2000 snake with one eye, they choose to price it for a grand and sell it rather than take the "loss" entirely.
Unfortunately breeding ethics are something that cannot be taught or enforced, it is up to the breeder himself to set his own standards in that area, and the consumers to choose what standards he will require from a breeder he chooses to buy a snake from.
As long as there are high dollar morphs though, there will be those with one eye, or a kinked back making up part of the breeding pool.
While my opinion matters little, I do lose respect for people I see selling such snakes. It tells me they hold little concern for the genetic integrity of the snakes they profess to love so much. If that integrity is lost though, what's the point in producing them?
 
Clay,

What's even more frightening though is the scenario Joe was describing. Breeder "A" has one anomaly in the clutch. Was just that snake or are several other sibblings carriers of that genetic deffect? Even if he culled that animal he can never be 100% sure he got rid of the flaw and you as a buyer will never be assured you are safe. But of course, you might never know...
 
Snakes with physical deformities from birth, even if they will not affect the snake's ability to breed or quality of life should be culled. They should be, by some method, removed from the gene pool entirely. While all deformities are not genetic, who is to say which are and which are a result of environmental factors during incubation?

Now there's something I agree with 100%

I've gotten into the argument a few times here before but...

I feel that anyone keeping any captive animal has a responsibility to maintain their individual animals in a manner that is good for the hoibby, good for the business and good for the species as a whole... This means everything from making sure they keep animals legally, to making sure they keep them healthy, to having at least a basic understanding of some of these simple genetics issues and working to actively ensure that their animals and their practices are positive for themselves and the industry as a whole.

It means culling animals with obvious defects to ensure that there isn't even the possibility of contamination of the larger gene pool with negative traits... selling it to someone "Just as a pet" doesn't work... humane euthanasia does.

It means making sure that your animals are maintained in a naturally viable way to a great degree... Hybrids are pure garbage that do nothing but pollute the species... even subspecific intergrades that don't occur in nature are negative.

I personally see most morphs as being a negative trait to begin with... being an albino lowers natural survival rates and thus is not a positive mutation, I also preffer the natural color patterns and the reasons they evolved but I reccognize the fact that many do not feel similarly (and I'm not as fanatical about that one as I am hybridization)... Anyone breeding morphs has a responsibility to represent their animals honestly, to plan out their breeding projects and to keep the strains true... There should not be amel corn to amel corn breedings that produce a variety pack of offspring because the patterns were bred by ignorant people who "thought they would make something new" or just wanted to breed the first two animals they could obtain.

Culling via either humane euthanasia, chemical/surgical castration (very dangerous to attempt with herps) or by simply keeping any offspring showing undesireable traits in your private collection and NEVER offering them for sale are only responsible things to do... There are too many casual hobbiests who, while often well intentioned, will cause a lot of damage through their ignorance... there is no valid reason for enabling them to do it faster.
 
I can see your point with the culling thing, but my deformed BRB is one of my favorite pets. But I would never breed her, and someone who was just looking for cheap breeding stock might have (I bought her at a show). It's sort of a quandary.

It never occured to me that behavioral differences in amels might account for deformities in their offspring, that's an interesting idea. Might account for why burrowing amels like KSB's don't have so many deformities (I have one that's a little psycho, but that's not statistically valid). KSB's are T+ too, don't know if that would make a difference. They still have pink eyes.

I once saw a guy at the Ohio show selling a deli-cup full of what he was calling 'designer' burms. All four or five of them had NO eyes. Kinda scary, I guess.

I always assumed that the bug-eyed gene in Texas rats was linked on the same chromosome as the leucistic gene, and that's why you almost never see one without the other. Linkage really messes with genetics, and pretty much gives me a headache.

Erin Benner
 
Seamus,

You brought up an interesting point but didn't go into much detail. The first thing I thought of when I started reading this thread was "why can't they sterilize the ones with defects so they can't reproduce" you mention that it is dangerous in herps but how so. Can you or anyone else elaborate a little. I realize that it may not be an option for every low dollar snake but for someone with an albino ball or boa it may be a way to ethically be able make a little bit on the snake.

By the way, in the tropical fish hobby the same thing happens. Some people are out for every dollar they can get and I am sometimes amazed at the junk that comes in with some of the shipments. Clown fish and cichlids with deformed faces, angelfish with only one pectoral fin, hunched backs etc. And then they get mad at you when you point the probelms out.

Steve Schindler
 
You brought up an interesting point but didn't go into much detail. The first thing I thought of when I started reading this thread was "why can't they sterilize the ones with defects so they can't reproduce" you mention that it is dangerous in herps but how so. Can you or anyone else elaborate a little

In thinking about it a bit more after reading your post while formulating my intended reply...

Not so much...

I'm not a vet, not a vet tech and while I've got a decent grasp on reptile biology, not much of it covers outside chemical/surgical procedures...

It's one of those things that "everybody knows" but nobody can specify where or why they know it...

Reptiles are pretty chemically sensitive, so the process of putting one under to perform surgery of any kind is a pretty risky procedure as I understand it... The same might apply to any drug introduced to cause sterility... Finding a vet qualified and willing to undertake the process would be another huge hurdle.

I know at least a few vets peruse this board on occasion... any of them care to comment on reptile related surgery and why I (and I'm pretty sure most others) have the impression that it's difficult and riskier than surgery on other types of animals?

One thing I would be inclined to wonder is if it was just a body mass thing in some cases, I think operating on a four ounce chameleon would be very different from operating on a 150 pound burm.

The fish issue is really the basis of why I feel euthanasia is the correct thing to do with animals born displaying an undesireable, unhealthy trait... there ARE way too many people on every production level who just don't seem to care about the quality of the animals they send out and unfortunately we're living in a society that seems to have a large population which cherishes the underdog to levels that foster the tendency of many breeders to just not care... The "Ooh, I want the little one with the twisted tail, poor little guy looks like he needs a friend." little orphan annie mentality some customers will take sometimes makes it seem like deformed animals sell better than healthy ones.

I've mucked around with aquarium fish even longer than I've mucked around with herps... I did occasionally get fry that had deformities, most of which seemed to be gestation condition issues where one out of an entire clutch would have some problems and not recurrent with subsequent clutches from the same adluts... and a few, very few but a few, where entire clutches hatched out with physical deformities of some kind. The animals were euthanized humanely (Massachusetts allows individuals to euthanize fish under certain guidelines and in certain manners without animal cruelty issues being brought up... although legally, you're not allowed to break a rat's neck to use as a feeder) to prevent them from ever entering the breeding population, either mine or someone elses... You just can't trust someone else not to breed something and it's only responsible to eradicate obviously unhealthy mutations.

If you (General "You", not Steve "You), as an individual, produce mutated offspring and do not wish to euthanize them, that's fine... but you need to have an understanding of the larger issues of genetic contamination of the general population and ensure, by keeping that animal for it's entire life, that it never is used to produce any offspring. And if you have a pair of breeders that regularly throws deformed babies and your incubation methods are correct (and have been checked for things like the albino light avoidance possibility mentioned earlier), you need to break up the pair and keep them BOTH out of the breeding population just in case it does have a genetic cause.

A herper has a number of responsibilities, a responsibility to their animals, to take care of them properly and keep them healthy, a responsibility to the herping community to make sure all actions taken are legal and foster a better attitude towards reptiles (still often misunderstood, makes me wonder if snakes or spiders are more hated/feared) in general and a responsibility that is taken on when one attempts to breed anything covers the importance of only taking actions that are good for the species as a whole, your animals, the remainder of the animals in captivity and wild populations (I'm for legal collection of animals, I'm against releasing baby iguanas that don't sell because some dink thought his male needed "a girlfriend" to get it to stop going after his wife's leg).
 
In my opinion the cost involved on a surgical procedure of that nature (as well as the risks for the animal) will negate any of the benefits that we are after. We are talking of an animal that will sell for less to start with because of a potentially inheritable defect, and on top of that the breeder has to add the cost of the surgical procedure? In my opinion it's not going to happen.

Regards.
 
I ran across a relevant quote in 'What's Wrong With My Snake' by John Rossi and Roxanne Rossi, 1996. From page 64:

One last interesting point: Neither of us has ever seen an old albino snake. Is this purely a coincidence or is there some connectino between albinism and shortened life span in these animals? Funk (1992) suggests that fatty tumors are much more common in albino corn snakes (Elaphe guttata) than in other corn snakes. This may be an a efect of intensive cpative breeding, whereby adults are maintained on a high food-intake regime, or it may be a propensity associated with that particular morph.

So maybe some of the problems are related to people treating albino snakes differently. Causality is a tough thing to figure out. I guess that's why they say peanuts and eggs are bad for you every other year and then change their minds.

Erin B.
 
Albino boas

I had a pair of these not to long agoi, and due to an economic downturn in my life i was forced to sell them. Unhapply, I may add......VERY unhappily...

But, the thought ALWAYS crossed through my mind about the gene being weak, or as an earlier poster described it"Albinism is a freak of nature and not meant to be a trait that is carried on" I think thats how he put it. I have beeen offered one eyed albinos over th last 5 years, have always passed on them just on the principles of an animals physical integrity. I wouldnt buy them.
I only noticed a few one eyed albinos offered for sale at the time I got my albino boas. It seems there are a LOT more NOW. This truly worries me, it is reminiscent of the albino hognose, a snake that has definite problems associated with inbreeding. Weak sick young that wont feed from a snake(Hognose) that usually is VERY HARDY. Same thing with the boa, standard colombians are very hardy snakes. I hope that the current trend doesnt continue, spiraling downward ,producing weaker and weaker albino bci, with more deformities.

Nowadays, it seems that people do not have the patience required to raise three and four sucesive generations of snakes up, introducing new bloodlines to strengthen them. I breed eastern indigos, and am on my third generation. You learn alot from keeping a group of animals over a 8 year period. But people want to realize a quick ,immediate return, or the closest thing to it. I think that when this hobby changes to the degree that people dont jump on the neext new thing, but stick with one or two things and REFINE the offspring, both in color and more importantly, by outcrossing, then and only then will we have truly strong and defect free snakes to sell. Just a thought. Albino boas are beautifull,I love em' but maybe the one eyed ones should be sterilized, or perhaps only albinos can be soild with unrelated non albino mates. this would require the custome to raise them up and then buy an het to breed with the ofspring. I dont know,i dont have the answer, its just a shame thats all.

sincerely,
Fred Albury
 
It seems there are a LOT more NOW. This truly worries me, it is reminiscent of the albino hognose, a snake that has definite problems associated with inbreeding. Weak sick young that wont feed from a snake(Hognose) that usually is VERY HARDY. Same thing with the boa, standard colombians are very hardy snakes. I hope that the current trend doesnt continue, spiraling downward ,producing weaker and weaker albino bci, with more deformities.

There is no doubt the number has increased. This year alone I saw six for sale, and the bulk of 2003 births have not started yet. Will probably see a lot more for sale soon.

Nowadays, it seems that people do not have the patience required to raise three and four sucesive generations of snakes up, introducing new bloodlines to strengthen them.

It's not only that. Those that want to do it strictly for the money are faced with the dilema that if they introduce new blood, by the time they will be able to offer albinos they will sell for far less. I'm surprised at some ads for babies of the Kahl strain currently being sold for over $1,000 while Kahl himself has them right now for $900 (even less from other reputable breeders). How much will they go for three to four years from now?

Regards.
 
Well, melanistic norther adders and black rat snakes were originally freaks of nature, but since they happened to be living in a spot where melanism worked out for them, it turned out to be a good thing. Albinism by its nature is a lot less likely to be advantageous than melanism, but there's no real difference, just some pigment going one way or the other. If you took away the predators, albino snakes would probably spread through the wild population, because they'd be just as able to survive as 'normal' snakes. Well, if they were burrowers. A snake that gets sunburned wouldn't be too happy.
So I guess I'm saying there's nothing inherently wrong with being albino, it's just us humans and our inbreeding that messes it up.

Erin 'what is normal anyway' Benner
 
So I guess I'm saying there's nothing inherently wrong with being albino, it's just us humans and our inbreeding that messes it up.

Erin,

You are right. Again the problem is that we start with a small gene pool to begin with, and the fact that breeders want the return on investment fast. If we did the breeding just for the fun of it and not for the money chances of this happening would be minimized. What I would encourage breeders as well as dealers to think that there is a problem and that trying to make a quick $ in the short term will backfire on them in the long run.

Regards.
 
!!!!!

Posted by "x" (Contact Me!) on July 26, 2003 at 14:04:54
Registered PetHobbyist User since 2003-03-31



Ok, Here's the deal. I have 1 Male that is Anery 100% Het. Albino. I also have 2 Females that are Albino 100% Het. Anery. They were all born early 2002. The 2 females lost an eye each shortly after birth. They were all produced from "X" and they come with the original receipt from him. They also come with detailed records and graphs. They all eat F/T Large rats each and everytime I offer them one. The male is roughly 41 inches and 900 grams. One of the females is roughly 46 inches and 1100 grams. The last female is roughly 43 inches and 1000 grams. This is the best way to produce Snow Boas. If you breed the male to the females 25% of the litter should be Snow, 25% should be Albino 100% het. Snow, 25% should be Anery het. Snow, and 25% Should be Double het. If each female las a litter of 16, that would mean 8 Snows, 8 Albinos 100% Het. Snow, 8 anery 100% het. Snow, and 8 Double hets. I am offering this group for $10,000 plus shipping. please call or email me soon. First person to contact with interest gets the first shot at this amazing offering.

This ad appeared this week. One person is offering not one but two one-eyed albino boas. How can someone tell him to euthanize both females when he is pretending $10,000 for the group.

Regards.
 
Just got around to reading this thread, and it has been very informative; thanks to all who added their 2 cents...and of course puts me in a slight quandary, in regards to one of Alvaro's posts:

"What's even more frightening though is the scenario Joe was describing. Breeder "A" has one anomaly in the clutch. Was just that snake or are several other sibblings carriers of that genetic deffect? Even if he culled that animal he can never be 100% sure he got rid of the flaw and you as a buyer will never be assured you are safe. But of course, you might never know..."

I bred my amel het anery corns this year and had an "anomoly" pop up that didn't survive...Now these aren't $1000+ critters but I still feel a responsibility to inform those interested, especially being how corns are a great "introductory animal" fpr young herpers looking for their first snakes...Have a young person in Lancaster PA buying a trio in 2 weeks; gotta IM him now to this link and explain to him about what I think this anomaly is, altho I have told him about the clear snow and shown him a pic or 2...Sigh...Thanks Daniel, making me get all "responsible" and what not lol...Really great info on Albinism and the effects of inbreeding/outcrossing...Keep up the good work, folks, and peace
 

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And yet another one!

Albino Female ONLY $775 SHIPPED*
Miami, FL
Posted by XXX (Contact Me!) on September 15, 2003 at 11:02:04
Registered PetHobbyist User since 2002-10-10

Click on thumbnails to view fullsize in a new window

MONEY NEVER SHOWED! BACK UP FOR SALE ONE MORE TIME!

I have this female albino boa for probably the cheapest price on the net ($775 shipped, WOW!). She has enlarged eyes, but they are no big deal. She is in perfect health, feeds like crazy, is extremely active, and is growing like a weed! She will make a great breeder as an adult,and at her growth rate that shouldn't be long! If you want to add an albino to your collection, this is your chance for cheap! I've gotten alot of responses, but no takers. Please serious inquiries only. No trades and price is firm. I accept paypal and overnight money orders. Thanks.
 
So, albinos can have sight problems.
And it seems some breeders continue their inbreeding practices and continue to produce one eyed animals.
and then try to cover it up by saying it is an injury.
Some of them even go through and say the animal had 2 surgeries.
I do not know about anyone else. but I will not have two EXPENSIVE surgeries performed on an animal that I am only gonna sell cheaply. I will not have over a thousand dollars of surgeries performed on an animal that I sell for only $750. that is me. Some of you might be different..but oh well

okay albinos can be genetically bad if not careful.

What other "morphs" out there show weeknesses?


all you gotta do is look around and notice....
Gee i do not see too many of this morphs as OLD adults.
I see lots of young adults but NEVER old adults.
Those morphs you will NEVER see at my place until someone can make one that will last long.
 
I wonder: Has anyone tried to isolate or eliminate the gentic defects in their albino breeding programs? I don't think so, but perhaps one of the larger breeders has. The reason I ask is that a lot of people think that the problems are inbreeding depression, so outcross.

While fertility and vigor problems are seen as signs of inbreeding depression, there are many genetic defects that operate as simple recessives. There are traits that are genetically linked: the two traits exist near each other, so if you have one trait, you have a good chance of at least having a het for the other trait. Even without linking, you still have a situation of having a genetic defect in the gene pool. All original strain albinos come from a single snake -- if anyone knows whether the siblings of that snake that were imported with it were bred, I haven't heard of it. That means that ALL breeders of this strain of albino are working from the same genetic stock.

So, if that snake passed along the trait for deformed eyes (no eyes, one eyed, etc.), that gene is in the gene pool for albinos. The only way to check whether that original snake was the carrier for the trait is to breed it back to its own daughters repeatedly. A book I recently read stated a number of 11 back breedings to reach a 99% certainty that a given animal was free of a defective gene. (Because each resultant offspring has a greater percentage of the genetic material of the father -- or mother if you're testing a female.) Of course, you'd want to do this with more than one female. I doubt this has been done.

Outcrossing is really not going to get rid of a defective gene in a closed population, because all it will do is mask the gene. The effects of hybrid vigor are good, though, but limited to the first couple of generations unless ongoing outcrossing is done. (Ongoing outcrossing inhibits you from fiixing genetic traits, though. If you're breeding for polygenetic traits like adding color to a project, or size, or what have you, then you need to do controlled line breeding...from stock that's free of genetic defects.)

While we don't know what the mechanism of the defects are (inbreeding depression, simple recessive, polygenetic traits that inhabit an area near the albino gene, etc.), we do know that a) the original strain is effectively a closed population, with only one male and b) the defects showed up early on after initial inbreeding to fix/prove the trait Outcrossing has reduced the occurances of some of the problems, but it has only done so by masking the problems.

The big question is: Who's doing the work to actually clean out the albino gene pool? Who's test breeding males for successive generations to prove them free of defects? In boa constrictors, we're talking about YEARS of test breeding to prove out some clean animals. Make that years of inbreeding, which is frowned upon because of the mistaken belief that outbreeding is fixing the problem.

Just a few thoughts I figured I'd add since the thread is still active.
 
I have to agree with almost everything that has been said here. The defective gene that Brian mentioned does not actually have to be close to the albino gene, or even linked to it. Most genetic flaws are recessive traits. Traits that might never pop up unless that one in a million chance brings two snakes together that carry the trait. Inbreeding increases the chances that more recessive traits will surface. They don't necessarily have to sit close to the albino gene, they just have to be in the DNA of the snakes.

As for the outbreeding, and back breeding for 11 generations, yeh that COULD prove that the gene was not present. Then again..what if the odds were running against you and it never showed itself...until the 12th breeding. Then what? Albino boas are running at what about a grand each (make it an easy number, it's early) Ok so a female has a clutch of 10. All are perfect. So can we sell them? or do we hold on to them until the end of the experiment? Not many people are willing to sit on a possible 10 grand for a long period of time but since this is an experiment we keep them. The next year, ten more healthy babies. Hmmmm now it's up to 20 grand, even more tempting....This keeps happening, every year ten more healhty babies that we are sitting on. Now what happens when the 11th litter is born and oh crap, there is that darn trait? We have ten perfectly healthy litters, worth what maybe a million bucks (assuming the value of morphs stays the same)? What breeder would really put down ALL these snakes? And who's to say that since the origional clutch is now ten years old, he hasn't bred those too.

Unfortunatly, most people won't have the time, money or be able to resist temptation for your experiement to work. The morph market in many cases is unstable. Every year with more being produced the price can drop a little. So our ten healthy litters that at one point might have been worth a million bucks, might only be worth a few hundred (worst case scenario).
 
Yep, the economics are definately the problem with isolating a bad gene. (Of course, you don't have to hold back all of a litter to do the experiment, since you're only backbreeding to the first sire or dam in the line. Even if you hold back a single animal, if you keep backbreeding, after 11 generations -- less, really, b/c we're talking thousandths of a percent difference at a certain point -- the offspring will practically be genetic clones of dad. It'd be expensive, but not a million dollars' worth of expensive.)

Then again, if you know that you have a snake throwing babies with defects, why sell them? All of these ads with people selling albinos for a high price that have defects are a problem. The prices aren't generally low enough for people to buy the animal as a pet, but they're low enough for a person to buy as a cheap breeder. If you suspect a genetic flaw, you shouldn't be selling the animal. You also shouldn't breed the parents that produced the flaw to each other again. (If it's genetic. Nobody's done any real work to prove that one way or the other, though the odds seem very, very much in favor.)
 
Keep 'em coming!

Boas Albino Boas 11/05/2003 $1,700.00 pr. you pay 4 months 17 in. — Details
1.1 albino boas born 6-7-03 the female is healthy and eating nonstop the male has an eye impairment but other than that he is eating nonstop also
 
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