Inbreeding

[Tere Salazar]

Hi Tere, No the ones I visited were 2 Italian, 2 German and one aussie. I can post links if you like?
Jack

Do they come with automatic translation?

Yes, Jack. I'd love to see what you came across.

 

[whiskersmom]

So, it doesn't look like this is something that is going to be a big seller! If the dollar sign is taken out of the equation maybe the desire to create more of these poor creatures will fade.
I've said this before, and I'll keep on saying it....just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Thanks Jack and Tere for the info on how other's are feeling towards this inbreeding/creation...if you could please post the links, that would be great!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

That said, there are ways of breeding that make this a safer practice, but you have to do plenty of outbreeding to strengthen the lines if you want to avoid serious issues.

I agree with this statement.

we all knew that it was inbreeding but we waited for him to "tighten the noose" so to speak

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If I replace silkback in the below quote and put in any mutation associated with snakes, geckos or any other animal, it would be called responsible out-crossing.

I have bred my silkback male on a normal female (unrelated) and it gave me all the babies being leath.

Maybe I'm missing something besides the fact that this mutation is disliked.

 

[outsdr2]

So, it doesn't look like this is something that is going to be a big seller! If the dollar sign is taken out of the equation maybe the desire to create more of these poor creatures will fade.
I've said this before, and I'll keep on saying it....just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Thanks Jack and Tere for the info on how other's are feeling towards this inbreeding/creation...if you could please post the links, that would be great!

Hi Sheri and Tere, Here are the links. Hopefully you have google translater.

http://translate.google.com/transla...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=bHe


http://translate.google.com/transla...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=sRe

http://translate.google.com/transla...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=sRe

http://translate.google.com/transla...firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N

http://www.dragontank.com/main/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=7086&start=0

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?...n=4C470B13-14BB-4B6C-A1AA27316B4D6EF643223340

Hope this helps prove our point.

Jack

 

[puppytoes72]

yes,but how did he get the silkback to start with?inbreeding!i see what you are saying but he took an inbred silkback and then bred it with a normal.it can take awhile to see the damage done by it.he admitted to "close relation"

 

[shadi11]

I dont know if this is one that Jack posted but here
http://translate.google.com/transla...snum=2&ct=result&prev=/search?q=alemoz2&hl=en
There is a post that says... In alemoz2 post part way down that page.

perhaps in the pogone lines could be called cawley or the dachiu

So wouldnt this be returning it here for inbreeding.. and not exactly starting with a clean line anyhow.

 

[puppytoes72]

sounds like it to me.it was very hard to understand but thats what i got out of it.seems like they are asking the same questions as we are! ty for posting that laura.

 

[pscaulkins]

Thank you outsdr2 for posting those links. Like all things we can only hope the demand for Smoothies will be down so the supply will dwindle. They do look so pathetic.

shadi11, I agree bringing them back is not starting fresh.

In my opinion, imbreeding affects the buyers more than the sellers. The buyers are the ones purchasing the dragons and having major problems, not the sellers. If a breeder was responsible, they would listen to all the qualms people have and not fight them like I have seen on this forum.

 

[Valley Dragons]

my thoughts on inbreeding...

Lately there's been quite alot of discussion regarding inbreeding bearded dragons in order to create what some people think are a desirable trait. I think this is wrong but would like to know what others think.
Let me put it this way...do you think that it's worth the risk of genetic related problems (even years down the line) to breed related dragons?

First off - lets take all the "fear of the unknown" out of the word and give it a concrete definition. Inbreeding is the mating of closely related individuals, which tends to increase the number of individuals that are homozygous for a trait and therefore increases the appearance of recessive traits. You are basically concentrating the gene pool - reducing the number of alleles (genes) available within a population.

This can be good - such as when you use inbreeding to produce desirable traits, and this can be bad - such as when animals loose vitality after too much close inbreeding. Inbreeding is essential for producing color morphs, albinos - pretty much anything that goes beyond the norm. BUT- there are ways to minimize the problems associated with inbreeding. Let's take for instance the silkback. If you breed that silkback to two completely unrelated dragons, you will produce animals that are het for silkback. Then, if you breed those het offspring back together, you get silkbacks. You just reduced your chances of problems by half. Consider if you continue outcrossing...a few generations later and your chances of having any problems are minimal.

I personally do not have a problem with inbreeding when it is used in a responsible manner. I do not agree with breeding brother and sister together, and then breeding those siblings together, and on and on. But with careful outcrossing, I believe that the problems associated with inbreeding will be minimized.

Jamie

 

[shadi11]

Seems as though a few posts allessandro states that the dragons are Dachiu and crawley lines. so If thats the case.. I dont see how line breeding will help. I understand line breeding but you have to breed out of that line so much to purify completely.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Thank you, Jack and Laura. It's nice to know we aren't alone.

 

[puppytoes72]

First off - lets take all the "fear of the unknown" out of the word and give it a concrete definition. Inbreeding is the mating of closely related individuals, which tends to increase the number of individuals that are homozygous for a trait and therefore increases the appearance of recessive traits. You are basically concentrating the gene pool - reducing the number of alleles (genes) available within a population.

This can be good - such as when you use inbreeding to produce desirable traits, and this can be bad - such as when animals loose vitality after too much close inbreeding. Inbreeding is essential for producing color morphs, albinos - pretty much anything that goes beyond the norm. BUT- there are ways to minimize the problems associated with inbreeding. Let's take for instance the silkback. If you breed that silkback to two completely unrelated dragons, you will produce animals that are het for silkback. Then, if you breed those het offspring back together, you get silkbacks. You just reduced your chances of problems by half. Consider if you continue outcrossing...a few generations later and your chances of having any problems are minimal.

I personally do not have a problem with inbreeding when it is used in a responsible manner. I do not agree with breeding brother and sister together, and then breeding those siblings together, and on and on. But with careful outcrossing, I believe that the problems associated with inbreeding will be minimized.

Jamie

but why do all that??just for money? its senseless and should be considered animal cruelty.who are we to mess with them?

 

[walker75]

I believe the Silkback came to mutant really by inbreeding the leatherbacks together and yes they are Inbreed. There is a wrongway to do this as there is always a RIGHT way to do things.

This is being done for money and greed and to exploit the bearded dragon even more than it is already. For profit and to offer something "new" different .

As has been shown in the past everything has a price people's integrity and morals and basic common sense.

Some never posses it some never get it... So say known Adenovirus Dragons are given Away as "good person" to help someone out and then later on there entire colony is wiped out. Did I know I did this per say cause I did not test?

Did I have to know how dangerous the Virus was or could be?

Do I know what inbreeding has already down to the stock that is left in the United States ?

Do I as A Breeder CARE.. Apparently not as it is business as usual and the heck with the animal they are just that animals???

RIGHT...

WRONG on SO MANY Levels...

ALSO Hi to Dachiu's spoke Models

puppytoes please do not go for the points... Dachiu has NEVER answered questions on anything she never will....

 

[puppytoes72]

Thank you outsdr2 for posting those links. Like all things we can only hope the demand for Smoothies will be down so the supply will dwindle. They do look so pathetic.

shadi11, I agree bringing them back is not starting fresh.

In my opinion, imbreeding affects the buyers more than the sellers. The buyers are the ones purchasing the dragons and having major problems, not the sellers. If a breeder was responsible, they would listen to all the qualms people have and not fight them like I have seen on this forum.

yes,ty jack and laura.sandy,it does seem that there is an aweful lot of fighting and "trying to cover up and sweep under the carpet"on this site.as we can see though other parts of the world are just as angry about this as we are.

 

[puppytoes72]

good post karen! im not going for points but im also not going to keep my mouth shut when i have something to say.

 

[whiskersmom]

I don't know if that link was on what Jack posted but it was an interesting (if not challenging) read.

We're not alone in our beliefs.....these silkbacks created from inbreeding (who? Mother to son?) has alot of people concerned. And I'm not reading alot of plain answers coming from the horses mouth, so to speak, either. We do seem to have an infatuation with horses over here, don't we? Kind of like the answers we are getting here.

The question I would love to see answered is which dragon was mated to which dragon? When this all began. Was it the mother to her son? Being that Alessandro stated that this all started with one 500 gram female they paired with a nice yellow male. So when they crossed back, was it the brother to sister?

alassandro wrote:

Second section: The two red remaining I bred them together with the aim to test and find out the super form. I hatched 5 silkback (first generation) and the leather. It is for that reason that I say there is a distance but it is still small, because they come over from a cross of the second generation. This year I tested the silk in two ways. I crossed two of the third generation (one of the yellow line and one of the red line) which they should be more separate and I get silkback again (first generation but with more distance).

He admits to inbreeding. We already know he did it. The discussion I would like to see now is who's for it and who's against it? Who will take care of these special needs pets? Will you be honest with the buyers that these animals are kinda like a dragon but not really. That the level of care (which most people already DO NOT do) will be a bit different. Oh and by the way, don't forget to take your list of precautions.
I can't see that happening...heck, you guys can't even admit to Adeno in your facilities....wait, I take that back, what you admit is everyone has Adeno, so don't worry about it! (said with a joey tribbiani slurr)

Sadly, the one leader in our community, the one who should have all the answers, the one we all should be looking up to for guidance, happens to be MIA. And the oxymoron of this whole thing is she is the one who turned us on to this mutation. She's the one alluding to her plans for future breedings of this poor tormented mutation.

Vickie, I think your parents did you a disservice when they didn't allow you to watch Frankenstein as a child....then you might have thought twice before playing the mad lab scientist.

 

[shadi11]

Has inbreeding not proven to have caused enough problem in the population? I can see the good in continuing it to create new. Other than increase business traffic. If theres some benefits I am missing point me there.

 

[puppytoes72]

sherri,perfectly said! i disagree with one thing though..vicki is not MIA,she is here lurking but refuses to answer these important questions about her "project".

 

[shadi11]

Has inbreeding not proven to have caused enough problem in the population? I can see the good in continuing it to create new. Other than increase business traffic. If theres some benefits I am missing point me there.

Sorry typo..
This is I cant see the good in continuing to create new.

 

[whiskersmom]

Yes, I know. I see her and it's sad that she won't come out and confront this situation. If she felt so strongly about her cause, she would speak for it. If not, maybe that's an indication that she does have a heart and realizes that what is being done is down right morally wrong.