Inbreeding

[walker75]

Will you be honest with the buyers that these animals are kinda like a dragon but not really. That the level of care (which most people already DO NOT do) will be a bit different. Oh and by the way, don't forget to take your list of precautions.


Thats kinda like being BLIND and not having a suppot system around like a good healthy and trained seeing eye dog, But hey it listens sometimes but not all the time

 

[mikey]

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If I replace silkback in the below quote and put in any mutation associated with snakes, geckos or any other animal, it would be called responsible out-crossing.

Sadly Dennis, they would rather ignore the "responsible out-crossing" part.

 

[whiskersmom]

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If I replace silkback in the below quote and put in any mutation associated with snakes, geckos or any other animal, it would be called responsible out-crossing.

So, to set the record straight...you are saying that it's ok to mate a brother to his sister if it will produce a trait for you? And that is called responsible out-crossing?

 

[KelliH]

but why do all that??just for money? its senseless and should be considered animal cruelty.who are we to mess with them?

That is a ridiculous statement. Animal cruelty? You can't be serious! As far as inbreeding goes, you are kidding yourselves if you think most of the dragons in the U.S. are not related in some way. When was the last time wild caught dragons were imported here from Australia? And speaking of wild dragons, do you not realize that bearded dragons (and other wild animals) inbreed in the wild all the time? These animals do not avoid breeding with others that are closely related to them.

NOW, with all that being said, I am a strong believer in outcrossing reptilian bloodlines. It is always a good idea to bring in animals that are not closely related to whatever bloodline you are working with to outcross your lines. It is commonplace for herpetoculturists to inbreed for 2-3 generations in order to reproduce a specific recessive or dominant trait, sometimes even a line bred trait. Responsible breeders will then outcross the morph animals to strenthen the line.

With the limited gene pools we have to begin with (I am speaking mainly of bearded dragons and leopard geckos), I sometimes wonder if in a lot of cases we are only making ourselves feel better by pretending that we are breeding "completely unrelated" animals together. You have to admit that most of these animals descend from very few bloodlines in the first place, and they have been inbred and mass produced for years. I think it is really wrong of some here to cast stones at certain breeders over and over and over again for what those people perceive as "wrong". My $.02.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

So, to set the record straight...you are saying that it's ok to mate a brother to his sister if it will produce a trait for you? And that is called responsible out-crossing?

How do you think I got my first snow corn? Out-crossing comes after. Breeding 101.

Where do you think almost every single ball and Leo morph comes from?
Just how do you think they prove out their morphs?


I've started to post a few times and retracted because it wasn't very polite.

So what are you saying? I'm still trying to find out what groups your talking about?

Originally Posted by whiskersmom
I've been writing some different agencies about this and hopefully this can be stopped. I realize that the U.S. don't really have alot of regulations when it comes to reptiles, especially the care and ethical threatment of them but there may be something. Too bad we weren't more like Austria. In Austria - you, your animals and their enclosures are inspected yearly. If something isn't right, you are fined and then if still not fixed, the bearded dragon is removed from your care. I can't see a place like that allowing something like this.

Originally Posted by whiskersmom
I no way said anything like that. The word "agencies" doesn't only apply to governmental agencies. And where the heck did you get the word BAN from?

Just for the record, You sound like a PETA nut job.

 

[whiskersmom]

As far as inbreeding goes, you are kidding yourselves if you think most of the dragons in the U.S. are not related in some way.

No, we already know that. What we aren't agreeing with is to take those same practices to not create a larger gene pool or to do it for color but they are doing it to create a dragon that hasn't any scales. That will require different care then our beardies. Special precautions. This isn't the same. We may have messed up by breeding related dragons to gain more color but to take it a few steps further to create a different animal is another thing.

None of us are fooling ourselves here, but we don't see the necessity in creating this mutation. And we're difinitely not naive....the reason for this creation has something to do with money. When you're talking about an animal...changing it for capital gain....well, in my eyes you can't get any lower.

 

[puppytoes72]

That is a ridiculous statement. Animal cruelty? You can't be serious! As far as inbreeding goes, you are kidding yourselves if you think most of the dragons in the U.S. are not related in some way. When was the last time wild caught dragons were imported here from Australia? And speaking of wild dragons, do you not realize that bearded dragons (and other wild animals) inbreed in the wild all the time? These animals do not avoid breeding with others that are closely related to them.

NOW, with all that being said, I am a strong believer in outcrossing reptilian bloodlines. It is always a good idea to bring in animals that are not closely related to whatever bloodline you are working with to outcross your lines. It is commonplace for herpetoculturists to inbreed for 2-3 generations in order to reproduce a specific recessive or dominant trait, sometimes even a line bred trait. Responsible breeders will then outcross the morph animals to strenthen the line.

With the limited gene pools we have to begin with (I am speaking mainly of bearded dragons and leopard geckos), I sometimes wonder if in a lot of cases we are only making ourselves feel better by pretending that we are breeding "completely unrelated" animals together. You have to admit that most of these animals descend from very few bloodlines in the first place, and they have been inbred and mass produced for years. I think it is really wrong of some here to cast stones at certain breeders over and over and over again for what those people perceive as "wrong". My $.02.

1) CAN you find me a responsible breeder around here? 2)yes,there are a limited amount of unrelated beardies BUT why inbreed in close relation on purpose?

 

[puppytoes72]

Sadly Dennis, they would rather ignore the "responsible out-crossing" part.

we cant ignore something that ISN'T there

 

[mikey]

yes,there are a limited amount of unrelated beardies BUT why inbreed in close relation on purpose?

 

[puppytoes72]

plz make sure you bang your head hard enough ok??

 

[KelliH]

BUT why inbreed in close relation on purpose?

To reproduce a new color or pattern morph.

 

[whiskersmom]

Just for the record, You sound like a PETA nut job.

It's just sad that you are resorting to calling names. I'm not a PETA nut job. I don't believe in the lengths they go to preserve animal life but I do believe that I'm not overzealous in my belief that crossing a momma to her son or a daddy to his daughter or a brother to his sissy, is wrong. And if this is the way you do business.....btw, when you sell a snake do you tell them that this snakes brother is also the father? People accept that? Wow!!! I guess I am naive!!!
Do you also pump 'em up on steroids to make them bigger? I mean, if mating a brother to his sister is nothing, what else do you do? Where do you draw your moral line???

 

[KelliH]

None of us are fooling ourselves here, but we don't see the necessity in creating this mutation. And we're difinitely not naive....the reason for this creation has something to do with money. When you're talking about an animal...changing it for capital gain....well, in my eyes you can't get any lower.

The reason for the mass producing of any reptile has to do with money. Whether it is a new morph or not. That's just the reality of the reptile trade.

I am of the opinion that as long as the scaleless beardies do well/thrive under captive conditions then there is no reason why they should not be bred.

 

[puppytoes72]

To reproduce a new color or pattern morph.

exactly,and to produce a scaleless dragon.its wrong,plain and simple.just because it was done in the past to get new color morphs does not mean it should still be done.thankfully the buyer is becoming aware of exactly how it is done and will probably walk away and not support these actions

 

[whiskersmom]

To reproduce a new color or pattern morph.

And why produce a new color or pattern morph? For our amusement, right? Our desires, right? What about them? What about what they are physically feeling now or ten years down the road?
It all boils down to what we want. And what we want, by God, we get.
This is sickening.

 

[puppytoes72]

The reason for the mass producing of any reptile has to do with money. Whether it is a new morph or not. That's just the reality of the reptile trade.

I am of the opinion that as long as the scaleless beardies do well/thrive under captive conditions then there is no reason why they should not be bred.

but why risk the health of these beardies by even trying it? we all know the risks of inbreeding

 

[KelliH]

It's just sad that you are resorting to calling names. I'm not a PETA nut job. I don't believe in the lengths they go to preserve animal life but I do believe that I'm not overzealous in my belief that crossing a momma to her son or a daddy to his daughter or a brother to his sissy, is wrong. And if this is the way you do business.....btw, when you sell a snake do you tell them that this snakes brother is also the father? People accept that? Wow!!! I guess I am naive!!!

Well, he's right, you do sound quite Petaesque. Your views on inbreeding can be applied to probably 90% of the reptile breeders that frequent this very website, if not more, and virtually all of the larger scale reptile breeders. I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you are saying, which I believe comes from inexperience in the subject of herpetoculture, and an overall lack of knowledge regarding reptile biology and natural history.

 

[KelliH]

exactly,and to produce a scaleless dragon.its wrong,plain and simple.just because it was done in the past to get new color morphs does not mean it should still be done.thankfully the buyer is becoming aware of exactly how it is done and will probably walk away and not support these actions

Why exactly is it wrong? What evidence do you have that these animals do not fare well in captivity?

And why produce a new color or pattern morph? For our amusement, right? Our desires, right? What about them? What about what they are physically feeling now or ten years down the road?

Well, yes, I suppose in a way it is our amusements and/or desires. For me personally it is also my fascination with genetics and the joy I get from working with herps. May I ask you something? Why do you keep reptiles?

but why risk the health of these beardies by even trying it? we all know the risks of inbreeding

There are always risks when you are breeding reptiles, especially on a larger scale. There will always be deformities, dead in egg, breeders that die, I'm sorry but that is a reality, whether you are inbreeding or not.

I am not saying I think it is a good idea to inbreed and inbreed your animals year after year after year. In fact I am a huge believer in outcrossing.

 

[whiskersmom]

Well, he's right, you do sound quite Petaesque. Your views on inbreeding can be applied to probably 90% of the reptile breeders that frequent this very website, if not more, and virtually all of the larger scale reptile breeders. I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you are saying, which I believe comes from inexperience in the subject of herpetoculture, and an overall lack of knowledge regarding reptile biology and natural history.

Wow, you assumed all of that about me from one stance I have taken. No, from all I've read about PETA, I'm playing nice.
As for 90% of the reptile breeders out there that are engaging in inbreeding, then they have to live with that.
I've never been a breeder of reptiles but pure German Shepherds and Rottweilers, I have. And NO WAY did I even think of breeding related animals. NO matter how much it cost me to have an unrelated animal flown to me from Germany in order to acheive pure blood lines. Maybe because they are less of a disposable pet, then what alot of people think of reptiles. Maybe it's because in the dog world this conversation would be ran off of the boards.


I stand by my beliefs...this is sad. Purposely creating a mutation that is minus their scales is dead wrong....you believe it's alright...I hope Karma is a little kind to you.

 

[puppytoes72]

Well, he's right, you do sound quite Petaesque. Your views on inbreeding can be applied to probably 90% of the reptile breeders that frequent this very website, if not more, and virtually all of the larger scale reptile breeders. I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you are saying, which I believe comes from inexperience in the subject of herpetoculture, and an overall lack of knowledge regarding reptile biology and natural history.

"90% of the breeders that frequent THIS site" i think this is the problem sherri,we are stepping on too many toes here,that's why dennis insulted you.did he get any points for that? i got points earlier for saying " a** " but im curious..would i get points for saying " kiss my dennis " ? im really only just using an emoticon provided to me by fauna.