Inbreeding

[whiskersmom]

Do we even know how many bearded dragons are in the U.S.? We may be able to tell how many there are owned by the people that frequent Fauna but there's no way to tell how many beardies there are out there and if we don't know the number of how many are in the U.S. how can we possibly know how many have died or are experiencing problems from AV. I would say there's been many to die that the owners are clueless to what caused it.
I know for a fact that we have many newbies on BD.org that are screaming for help and then to have their beardies die anyways. Do you think these people had a necropsy done? No. And just because their newbies doesn't mean that is what killed them. If that were the case, there wouldn't be too many of them alive now.

You ask for proof because you know we can't provide it. Like I said, we don't even know how many captive breds there are.
So, here's a question for you Valley.....prove that AV doesn't kill? I'll even narrow it down for you....show me a positive dragon that doesn't have problems.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Oh, cry me a river. We ask for facts - you can't give any. It's as simple as that!

Jamie

Like I said, Wendy and I both told in great depth exactly what happened with us. If that's not up to your standards, that's just too bad. Just because we didn't run a scientific study from our homes doesn't mean we weren't presenting the facts, as they happened to us.

You know, for someone who hasn't even tested, I don't think you have ANY right to come in here telling others how we should have handled it. I'm pretty sure that both Wendy and I did the best that we could. Again, if that's not good enough for you, that's too bad.

You are one cruel, ugly, and cold-hearted person, just like Jean and Jim D. I don't know how the three of you sleep with yourselves at night.

 

[puppytoes72]

Did you want me to kiss it or kick it?

do whatever you chose to do,you do anyways

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well, okay - then if we are going to use that definition, then I guess you have an attitude as well. Think back to the smoothie thread...

Jamie

I'm thinking back to the smoothie thread about all the unanswered questions. Is that what you mean?

That aside...I do have attitude, and I'm happy to admit that. You see, I have what you would call a cause, and I'm going to stand for that cause no matter what. My dragons and everyone else's dragons deserve that....including yours, Jamie.

Just because you haven't experienced what Wendy and I have doesn't mean that you won't...and also doesn't mean you have a right to come down on us. We did and will continue to do what we think is right.

 

[whiskersmom]

The husbandry has been blamed for Adeno suspected deaths quite often...so I guess that brings us back around to inbreeding. Maybe if there wasn't so much inbreeding our dragons would be strong enough to handle a husbandry that was a little off.

Like I said before, I may not know a whole lot about inbreeding but I know how to read and I'm finding that there are quite a few big name breeders that are against irresponsible inbreeding.
Inbreeding to purposely create these silkbacks, especially when we don't even have answers that we so desperately need regarding AV is irresponsible.

 

[Drache613]

Hell

Hello,

Yeah, well, I guess that pretty much narrows it down then. The people who are for inbreeding are the ones who argue that there is nothing wrong with it, & that there is no problem with adeno. That is what it looks like to me.
True, Whiskersmom, if they were not inbred, they could probably handle stress better as well as coccidia counts & not have to be medicated for every little thing due to a weak immune system.
I will stand up for what I think is right too, because that is really all we have, & the dragons deserve it!
I do my best on the boards to help people with dragon issues, & I see so many ill ones, it is sad. Jamie are you on the boards daily, to offer helpful advice to new people with questions?
You do not have a right to judge these owners who are going through the worst time right now. How do you know that your colonies do not have it? Personally, I do not recommend a person buy from an owner who is either not actively testing, or will not cooperate & do a test for them prior to purchase. That is the best way to educate new owners on that issue. Then, they can at least make an informed decision without having a fast one pulled on them.

Tracie

 

[Valley Dragons]

Hello,
I do my best on the boards to help people with dragon issues, & I see so many ill ones, it is sad. Jamie are you on the boards daily, to offer helpful advice to new people with questions?
Tracie

Yes, I am. Not only here, but on others.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

You are one cruel, ugly, and cold-hearted person, just like Jean and Jim D. I don't know how the three of you sleep with yourselves at night.

You know, Terre, you people like to lecture others about judging, but you sure are quick to do some judging yourself. I don't think Jean and JimD are bad people at all, they just have some views that are different from yours, so you hate them.

I don't hate you! I don't even know you! Heck - we might even get along if we met in real life - you and I are the same kind of people. Passionate about our beliefs and willing to argue them to the death. I respect that you don't give in to pressure. But lets not get so nasty, it doesn't really help anything.

Jamie

 

[whiskersmom]

Valley Dragons wrote:

Two breeders with problems in their colony do not make for a plague. Come on guys! Lets have it right now! Who has proof? Lets hear from the masses who have had their dragons die from adeno. Lets get it all out in the open for everyone to see. Lets hear from the vets involved. I am sure that they are working closely with you to control this plague - so lets have them come forward, as they are the knowlegable ones.

But lets not get so nasty, it doesn't really help anything.

I think it was you who opened up the door to nastiness.

 

[walker75]

Did you quarantine Mike's dragon's when they came into your home before putting them in with your stock?

Those animals came from Vicki Dachiu given free to Mike by Vicki so then ...

Vicki had it has it and has no problem spreading it freely or by selling... with out people knowingly getting an infected dragon..

I can go and find the post where these animals where sent by Vicki to him They Where FREE ANIMALS

We now know how this virus is spread and harbored in the environment it lives and also from person to animal...

See if even a slight chance she thought they would be fine b/c they lived and showed no outword sign in the beginning . Now a few years later they have shown alot more characteristics to look for or that can be seen.

The inbreeding for color and genetics did / does play a major factor in the health and longevity of a Adenovirus Dragon .

It is not / was not husbandry issues mikey

 

[mikey]

Like I said, Wendy and I both told in great depth exactly what happened with us. If that's not up to your standards, that's just too bad. Just because we didn't run a scientific study from our homes doesn't mean we weren't presenting the facts, as they happened to us.

You know, for someone who hasn't even tested, I don't think you have ANY right to come in here telling others how we should have handled it. I'm pretty sure that both Wendy and I did the best that we could. Again, if that's not good enough for you, that's too bad.

You are one cruel, ugly, and cold-hearted person, just like Jean and Jim D. I don't know how the three of you sleep with yourselves at night.

Sleep just fine..Thanks..The FACT is your husbandry did change. That make's me cruel,ugly, AND cold-hearted?

4.2 What we suspect.
4.2.1 Disease caused by adenovirus is effected by other cofactors, such as immune status, husbandry, and other sources of stress.

 

[whiskersmom]

mikey wrote:

4.2.1 Disease caused by adenovirus is effected by other cofactors, such as immune status, husbandry, and other sources of stress.

Which they might be able to handle a little better if they weren't so inbred.

 

[Tere Salazar]

You know, Terre, you people like to lecture others about judging, but you sure are quick to do some judging yourself. I don't think Jean and JimD are bad people at all, they just have some views that are different from yours, so you hate them.

I don't hate you! I don't even know you! Heck - we might even get along if we met in real life - you and I are the same kind of people. Passionate about our beliefs and willing to argue them to the death. I respect that you don't give in to pressure. But lets not get so nasty, it doesn't really help anything.

Jamie

No, Jamie. I'm basing my opinion on all the personal attacks launched by the three of you. As soon as the discussion isn't going your way, you go into someone's past and pick something you know will hurt like hell and throw it at them. That's what I'm referring to. Have you seen anyone doing that to y'all? Well, I'm not going to go back and reread everything, but I can guarantee I haven't.

It's not a nice way to play, Jamie. You know it and I know it. Discussing issues is one thing. Hell, even playful banter is something. But since we've all started this fighting, I've had the death of my dragons being MY fault thrown at me, Mike thrown at me, I infected my own dragons thrown at me. It's not right, Jamie...no matter whose mouth it comes from.

On a different note, yes, without Adeno in the picture, you and I probably would get along. Well, unless we found another belief to argue!

 

[Crazydude]

So Mikey are you saying that husbandry is the cause of them having the problems with adeno? Because I'm going to bet that there husbandry is the same as most.

Also Jamie, It will be hard to hear from the masses because I'm guessing 80% of premature beardie deaths are dragons from pet stores or bad info. So I'm guessing they didn't take the time to figure out what killed it. I bet alot are from adeno, MBD and Impaction.

Again you ask for things that you know people can not say. You are looking for cracks to dig into and spread. We don't know as much as we would like to and need more info. I don't get why you have the right to demand info when you have not tested yourself and yet still breed.

 

[mikey]

Which they might be able to handle a little better if they weren't so inbred.

Maybe so..I think there are many cofactors that play a part with AV, and highly possibly different strains.

 

[walker75]

4.2 What we suspect.

I know for a fact that when a adeno positive dragon has issues with coccida or parasites it is hard to rid them of them. They have to have a sterile environment once that is achieved they are stabilized and should continue to thrive to the best their genetics has to offer.


And once again NEVER BE BREED

I also know if they where NOT inbreed for any reason be it a silkback, leather back or high color they would have a better immune system because it has not been weakened by humans to the extent that it has been

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sleep just fine..Thanks..The FACT is your husbandry did change. That make's me cruel,ugly, AND cold-hearted?

4.2 What we suspect.
4.2.1 Disease caused by adenovirus is effected by other cofactors, such as immune status, husbandry, and other sources of stress.

Oh...please do tell me how, oh allknowing, allseeing one. Since you live here in my house, please tell me how my husbandry changed. Furthermore, please show me this proof you have that husbandry was what caused the death of my dragons. I can assure you you won't find it.

And I'll even go past that. If some of these breeders wouldn't sell sick dragons as healthy ones, NOBODY would be have to provide special husbandry. Isn't that the real point here? I didn't choose to have Adenovirus positive dragons. I wasn't offered an option, and wasn't even aware that there was one.

No, you honing in on me and personally attacking me in the way that you know will hurt the most makes you cruel, ugly and cold-hearted. All because I speak out for something I strongly believe...that happens to be in disagreement with what you believe.

I can tell you one thing, I don't care how many things you try to throw in my face, Jean, Jamie, JimD. I will not back down. As I've said before, I'm not afraid of any of you. Oh, and I'll ask again. When did this thread become about any of us? I honestly thought it was about inbreeding.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Maybe so..I think there are many cofactors that play a part with AV, and highly possibly different strains.

Yes, so blaming everything on one specific thing doesn't work here, now does it?

I do totally agree that there are probably different strains.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Mikey, you have to consider, if adenovirus was not present, would the other cofactors even exist? For example, if a dragon has AV, they are more likely to suffer ill effects from parasites and viruses. BUT, if they did not have adenovirus, it is quite possible these other issues could be handled by their immune systems, or would not be present at all. So, yes, there may be other factors that contribute with the adenovirus, but it is also likely they would not cause illness in an adeno free dragon.

 

[Valley Dragons]

I have a dragon from Dachiu - so if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno, then I can rest assured that all of my dragons are infected - because I sure as heck don't do what is neccesary to completely sterilize the dragon's environment to get rid of a virus like adeno. After the 90-day quarantine, I introduced this dragon into my colony. She has had contact with/been near/cross-contaminated every single one of my dragons, including my hatchlings. Granted, being that this is the beginning of the season for me, I have had 70 babies hatch so far this year, out of two different females and two different males. Each and every one of them is thriving. I had 4 eggs that have not hatched yet for some reason - but they appear to be fine, just slower to hatch. The dragon that I got from Dachiu is one of the best I have ever had - she is fast-growing (she has put on weight faster than my other babies), she is healthy and vigorous, and she has an excellent temperament. What more could I ask for? She is now almost 9 months old, and I have had ZERO problems with her.

I guess my point is this. If adeno is so easy to spread - and if Dachiu dragons are infected with adeno - then shouldn't [/I]my Dachiu dragon be infected with adeno? In which case my whole colony should be infected with adeno? And shouldn't I see some sort of health consequences because of this?
And I am truly not seeing anything wrong!

Jamie