Inbreeding

[Denisebme]

Denise.
Are all your tests still coming back negative? If so are you breeding this year?

Jim

All the dragons in my home are currently testing negative with another round of testing scheduled for next month. We are still operating on the first two tests.
Yes, I am breeding this year, but because of financial considerations, we opted to only breed 2 females because we do not know what the clutch testing will show. We have 18 eggs scheduled to hatch in about 2 weeks, and depending on what the clutch testing shows, we will make the decision on whether we will hatch out any other eggs. One positive clutch test and all the other eggs will immediately go into the freezer.
This isn't a business for me Jim, I can afford to take a stand on this issue, and no matter what my test results say, I have to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I'm not going to do anything to further this virus that is in my control.
What happens if another of my dragons tests positive or a clutch test comes back positive? I don't need to breed, I'll simply go the course of a couple other small breeders I know of and stop breeding completely until a whole lot more is known about this virus.

 

[pscaulkins]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why most people stay silent on this issue Jim. Every single person who has stepped forward with a strong position has been attacked in really personal ways.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what happens if people come forward with positive test results and ask questions. Its not pretty.
After my own experience on the BOI, I almost gave up on this community entirely, because even AFTER the truth was really clear in my case, it made no real difference at all.
There is a whole lot of effort being put into insuring that people think that AV is no big deal. When you put aside the agendas and just talk to people without judgment, you find that there are a whole lot of people who never plan to breed, they just have pets that are positive and they are trying to get answers because they ARE having issues, and it does this community no good if we continue to ignore it.

Denise with everything you said. As a buyer, I would not recommend anyone to purchase a dragon from a breeder that ignores adeno. It just shows how irresponsible they are. I for one, will not ignore it.

What I don't understand is why this forum board attacks people who come forward honestly with information. It is the only forum I have ever joined that does that.

Sandy

 

[JimD]

Denise.
I wish you luck! I hope you get lots of little four legged, long tailed cuties.

Jim.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Denise.
I wish you luck! I hope you get lots of little four legged, long tailed cuties.

Jim.

Just a quick add on...lots of little HEALTHY four legged, long tailed cuties. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be anything little about them, judging from the size of their parents.

Denise, I am not going to envy your cricket bill on those!

 

[shadi11]

I know of 3 other breeders who closed up shop because of having adeno die offs. And confirmed they were positive. there is plenty plenty more. but when people see how everyone reacts to the few who have come forward why are they going too.. They arent. because hmm.. Till we hit that acceptable number you state is each one going to be treated like this? So far they have.
I have one that just started laying infertiles. She had one clutch and hopefully wont lay more. but from my research the multiple clutches have been documented for years.
I have another that has tremors. due to d3 toxicity. I can not suppliment her with calcium with d3 or herpitive. because both contain this and whenever she has them she has tremors for awhile after.
I cant say I wouldnt take more positives in. But crap like this isnt easy for a novice owner to go thru. Believe me I have helped enough out. You cant ever treat them like you would a normal dragon because it never works.
Valley. I dont know if you remember but over a year ago now, you tried to help me on a different forum. Coccidia issues with one of my first ones. Just wouldnt go away. Its all explainable now.
I sat here thinking that maybe this stuff was normal. with the exception of the top 2 issues I listed. and just worked with them. Talked to friends who would give me the best advise they could. when that didnt work. Back to the drawing boards. I am glad I am able to return all this that I have learned. But my biggest issue is all those people who dont join the forums. They dont know anything and have a sick dragon. or they have a sick dragon. Join a forum. And I recommend testing or someone else does and they are positive. Its so sad.. These are part of the reasons I say its better to test than not know. No one who is untested is really looking to the future.

 

[mikey]

All the dragons in my home are currently testing negative with another round of testing scheduled for next month. We are still operating on the first two tests.
Yes, I am breeding this year, but because of financial considerations, we opted to only breed 2 females because we do not know what the clutch testing will show. We have 18 eggs scheduled to hatch in about 2 weeks, and depending on what the clutch testing shows, we will make the decision on whether we will hatch out any other eggs. One positive clutch test and all the other eggs will immediately go into the freezer.
This isn't a business for me Jim, I can afford to take a stand on this issue, and no matter what my test results say, I have to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I'm not going to do anything to further this virus that is in my control.
What happens if another of my dragons tests positive or a clutch test comes back positive? I don't need to breed, I'll simply go the course of a couple other small breeders I know of and stop breeding completely until a whole lot more is known about this virus.

Denise, as a hobby breeder, if you feel so strongly, why are you taking the chance? Do you feel confident to continue after 2 neg's and the removal of the positive dragon(s) you had ?

 

[Valley Dragons]

Valley. I dont know if you remember but over a year ago now, you tried to help me on a different forum.

I wondered if you were the same person that was at RepticZone.

Jamie

 

[Denisebme]

Denise.
I wish you luck! I hope you get lots of little four legged, long tailed cuties.

Jim.

Thank you.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I don't know...maybe my husbandry it too good. Perhaps I should slack off a bit so that we can see the full effects of the adeno...

Jamie

Jamie-

I hate to do this after things were going along so nicely, but here goes.

For whatever reason, I didn't see this post when you made it. It was brought to my attention and I was asked how could I even speak to you after you said this. I wasn't aware it was said. Would you like to explain what you were insinuating here?

Were you just saying that you're not having problems because your husbandry is superior to that of EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing Adeno symptoms, and that if you slacked off on husbandry the way EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing those symptoms obviously has, that maybe you would see those same symptoms?

Are you at all aware of how many people this would offend, not just Wendy and I, and how if that's what you're saying that with this one comment you proved exactly what I said earlier, not to mention that you, too, think that you're above it all? Sounds like someone else we know.

 

[Denisebme]

Denise, as a hobby breeder, if you feel so strongly, why are you taking the chance? Do you feel confident to continue after 2 neg's and the removal of the positive dragon(s) you had ?

The positive dragons that came into my collection never made it out of quarantine, as several people who know me can attest to. I've also tracked several of my babies from last year and paid to have them tested, so far with negative results.
The bottom line is that I would have eggs this year from those two females no matter what I decided to do. I opted to breed, give plenty of distance between pairings, just so I COULD freeze the eggs if I had ANY issue from the first hatch. Both females were bred to the same male to limit any possible exposure between my males and females.
No one is going to know 100% if Adeno can be passed by parents that test negative to hatchlings unless they are bred, which is one reason I decided not only to go ahead with the pairings, but I have also scheduled testing of the adult breeders to insure that not only do the parents continue to test negative, but also so the clutch testing can be compared to the adult testing.
I don't know how confident I am that all the results will be negative, but I am comfortable with my decision to pursue the course I am on.

 

[mikey]

The positive dragons that came into my collection never made it out of quarantine, as several people who know me can attest to. I've also tracked several of my babies from last year and paid to have them tested, so far with negative results.
The bottom line is that I would have eggs this year from those two females no matter what I decided to do. I opted to breed, give plenty of distance between pairings, just so I COULD freeze the eggs if I had ANY issue from the first hatch. Both females were bred to the same male to limit any possible exposure between my males and females.
No one is going to know 100% if Adeno can be passed by parents that test negative to hatchlings unless they are bred, which is one reason I decided not only to go ahead with the pairings, but I have also scheduled testing of the adult breeders to insure that not only do the parents continue to test negative, but also so the clutch testing can be compared to the adult testing.
I don't know how confident I am that all the results will be negative, but I am comfortable with my decision to pursue the course I am on.

Cool, I knew you had some positives, but could not remember all the facts. Glad you caught them in quarantine.

 

[JimD]

Its better for your females to lay fertile eggs rather then infertile. Even just that point makes it worth breeding them regardless of what you're going to do with the eggs.

Jim

 

[puppytoes72]

The positive dragons that came into my collection never made it out of quarantine, as several people who know me can attest to. I've also tracked several of my babies from last year and paid to have them tested, so far with negative results.
The bottom line is that I would have eggs this year from those two females no matter what I decided to do. I opted to breed, give plenty of distance between pairings, just so I COULD freeze the eggs if I had ANY issue from the first hatch. Both females were bred to the same male to limit any possible exposure between my males and females.
No one is going to know 100% if Adeno can be passed by parents that test negative to hatchlings unless they are bred, which is one reason I decided not only to go ahead with the pairings, but I have also scheduled testing of the adult breeders to insure that not only do the parents continue to test negative, but also so the clutch testing can be compared to the adult testing.
I don't know how confident I am that all the results will be negative, but I am comfortable with my decision to pursue the course I am on.

you have every right to feel confident,you are a very responsible breeder.thank you!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Its better for your females to lay fertile eggs rather then infertile. Even just that point makes it worth breeding them regardless of what you're going to do with the eggs.

Jim

Yeah, well, that's what you believe BEFORE attempts are made to crucify you for something you're not even thinking about doing.

 

[puppytoes72]

Jamie-

I hate to do this after things were going along so nicely, but here goes.

For whatever reason, I didn't see this post when you made it. It was brought to my attention and I was asked how could I even speak to you after you said this. I wasn't aware it was said. Would you like to explain what you were insinuating here?

Were you just saying that you're not having problems because your husbandry is superior to that of EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing Adeno symptoms, and that if you slacked off on husbandry the way EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing those symptoms obviously has, that maybe you would see those same symptoms?

Are you at all aware of how many people this would offend, not just Wendy and I, and how if that's what you're saying that with this one comment you proved exactly what I said earlier, not to mention that you, too, think that you're above it all? Sounds like someone else we know.

it offended me too,that is why i went beserk on her.the 22 points i received for it was well worth it.i didnt realize you missed that post tere,i was also wondering how you werent offended by that.

 

[JimD]

Tere.
Sorry. Did I miss something? Im not sure what youre saying.

Jim

 

[Denisebme]

Denise, as a hobby breeder, if you feel so strongly, why are you taking the chance? Do you feel confident to continue after 2 neg's and the removal of the positive dragon(s) you had ?

Just to be very clear, we have been through 2 complete rounds of testing, and out of a total of 28 tests, we had 3 tests come back positive. Izzy was the first positive, and she was immediately adopted out to a good friend so we could keep an eye on her. Nikki and Penny were the next 2 positives, and they had already been adopted out because they simply didn't thrive and we don't breed small dragons. We have a hard fast rule we follow when determining breeders, 18 months + 18 inches + 400 grams or over, if they don't look like they are going to meet that criteria, they never make it into our breeding colony.
Of the 3 females, Penny is absolutely beautiful, great genetics, but she just never grew the way we like to see.
Nikki is small, full grown she is about 16 inches long and very petite.
Izzy had health issues since day one, now fully grown she is 14 inches and a little over 300 grams, way to small to breed.
Penny and Nikki were adopted by the same family, Izzy by another. We keep in close contact with them and all 3 dragons are doing very well. They are all healthy and beautiful and well loved by their owners.

 

[mikey]

What is your game plan, if any bins test postive?

 

[Tere Salazar]

it offended me too,that is why i went beserk on her.the 22 points i received for it was well worth it.i didnt realize you missed that post tere,i was also wondering how you werent offended by that.

Oh, I'm plenty offended now. Everyone was PMing going how can you talk to her nicely? I thought it was from all the other crap that was spewed around here today, and never even saw this comment until it was brought to my attention this evening by yet another person. I told y'all I'm having comprehension issues today!

 

[Denisebme]

Cool, I knew you had some positives, but could not remember all the facts. Glad you caught them in quarantine.

I caught them in quarantine thanks to Wendy. I had already done fecals and if not for the fact that 2 of them were just not growing right, they would have made it into my colony. I never suspected or had reason to suspect that they had a virus.