Inbreeding

[Tere Salazar]

Im by myself her girls. Im not on the phone conspiring with people. Im asking questions. Plain and simple. If you think Im trying to set you up, please.
Believe it or not. I read everything that has been posted about AV. Lots of it twice. Im trying to figure out how a lot of this works.

Jim.

And believe it or not, I don't really think that was aimed in your direction.

If you find some answers, will you let us know? I'd love to figure this stinking virus out.

 

[Denisebme]

Im by myself her girls. Im not on the phone conspiring with people. Im asking questions. Plain and simple. If you think Im trying to set you up, please.
Believe it or not. I read everything that has been posted about AV. Lots of it twice. Im trying to figure out how a lot of this works.

Jim.

Good. All in all Jim, we all benefit from sharing information, and I'm 100% willing to take you at your word. Hopefully you've been around long enough to know why some of us are a bit gun shy.
I'm still trying to figure it out too. No one can explain why some dragons get sick and others don't. No one can explain how you can have one test positive and another from the same group, sometimes even housed together, test negative.
No one even knows for sure how accurate the test results are, or how long you have to test before you can say with any certainty that any beardie is 100% free of it.
I don't know how many emails you get from people who are just pet owners looking for answers, but I get a lot, and its frustrating to tell people that you can't answer their questions because we just don't know.
I've been very careful from the beginning to only mention the breeder of one of my positives because I know Tere doesn't mind at all that I share that information. In the case of the other 2 breeders, I don't mention it because I have no desire to cause them any difficulty. It is not their fault, they had no way of knowing that those dragons were infected when they sold them, AV simply wasn't common knowledge at the time.
I have no issues discussing the status of my own colony. Every single one left is my colony is a pet, they aren't going anywhere, so hopefully if any more of them test positive, we'll be able to learn something from it.

 

[Denisebme]

I know where Izzy's came from...without a doubt in my mind. I don't understand it either, Denise, but it's just like how does his wife test negative? Who the virus chooses doesn't make sense to me like that. One thing that was explained to me is that her genetics are stronger, that she came from many, many years of a closed colony and very strong bloodlines. But that still doesn't explain Daph...unless she got her nothing but her mom's genetics.

I don't get Astraea either, but if you'll remember right, she wasn't here for that long either. Maybe that was the saving grace. And not only is she a looker, she's super, super sweet.

So basically, are you saying that it points one of three ways, which in essence, boils down to one of two ways? And of those two boiled down ways, only one is really logical?

Exactly, you follow the logic.
Here is an example. Years ago, I lived in a place where we and about 10 other families were on the same gravity fed spring for water. Then people started getting sick from a water born parasite called giardia. It causes intestinal issues.
Now, not everyone who lived on the water system got sick, so it became a logic puzzle to find out where the contamination came from so we could prevent it happening again.
In my house, only one person got it. Me. Now, there were factors that made it easier for me to get infected, but that didn't explain why I would have it and not anyone else in my house, so again, it became a common sense issue to figure it out.
Now, it quickly became obvious that only 3 families were completely affected. 2 other families only had kids who had it, 3 other families only had adults who had it, 1 family had mixed results, a parent and child affected, everyone else was clean.
When we actually got out and walked the line, it was clear what the problem was. The 3 families that were all infected had their own filtration system, and it wasn't working. The rest of us were on a different system, and though all the water came from the same spot, we had our own system and holding tank, and out filtration system was functioning well.
So, how were those of us on the good system contaminated? We spent a lot of time of one of the houses on the bad system and we all are water drinkers.

So, to translate this into Beardie speak, this is what I believe probably happened to you. You had one dragon, the father of Izzy and Daph, that was exposed to AV. Whether by genetics or divine intervention, izzy was infected and Daph was not. Its quite probable that the infection spread unintentionally from those two clutches.
Genetics does play a huge part in immune system development, but I think that the most likely conclusion is that its as simple as there being a certain percentage of beardies that are exposed are just simply not going to get it. I have a brother who has never had the flu, he can live in a houseful of sick people and he just never gets it. Why? who knows. He gets colds, just not the flu.
One of the reasons I have absolutely no fear of this virus at this point is because whatever happens is inevitable. I haven't brought any new dragons into my home in a LONG, long time, and my colony is closed and small. I've tested, quarantined and done everything I can, and at this point, there is nothing further I can do except wait and test.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Exactly, you follow the logic.
Here is an example. Years ago, I lived in a place where we and about 10 other families were on the same gravity fed spring for water. Then people started getting sick from a water born parasite called giardia. It causes intestinal issues.
Now, not everyone who lived on the water system got sick, so it became a logic puzzle to find out where the contamination came from so we could prevent it happening again.
In my house, only one person got it. Me. Now, there were factors that made it easier for me to get infected, but that didn't explain why I would have it and not anyone else in my house, so again, it became a common sense issue to figure it out.
Now, it quickly became obvious that only 3 families were completely affected. 2 other families only had kids who had it, 3 other families only had adults who had it, 1 family had mixed results, a parent and child affected, everyone else was clean.
When we actually got out and walked the line, it was clear what the problem was. The 3 families that were all infected had their own filtration system, and it wasn't working. The rest of us were on a different system, and though all the water came from the same spot, we had our own system and holding tank, and out filtration system was functioning well.
So, how were those of us on the good system contaminated? We spent a lot of time of one of the houses on the bad system and we all are water drinkers.

So, to translate this into Beardie speak, this is what I believe probably happened to you. You had one dragon, the father of Izzy and Daph, that was exposed to AV. Whether by genetics or divine intervention, izzy was infected and Daph was not. Its quite probable that the infection spread unintentionally from those two clutches.
Genetics does play a huge part in immune system development, but I think that the most likely conclusion is that its as simple as there being a certain percentage of beardies that are exposed are just simply not going to get it. I have a brother who has never had the flu, he can live in a houseful of sick people and he just never gets it. Why? who knows. He gets colds, just not the flu.
One of the reasons I have absolutely no fear of this virus at this point is because whatever happens is inevitable. I haven't brought any new dragons into my home in a LONG, long time, and my colony is closed and small. I've tested, quarantined and done everything I can, and at this point, there is nothing further I can do except wait and test.

Gotcha. Thank you for the water story. Very interesting and it helped me understand what you were getting at. But what I don't get is how we go from him...to no problems for an entire breeding season...to where we are now. Wouldn't those babies from the beginning of last year also have shown some sort of issues, like the ones at the end of the year?

 

[Denisebme]

And believe it or not, I don't really think that was aimed in your direction.

If you find some answers, will you let us know? I'd love to figure this stinking virus out.

No, it wasn't really aimed at Jim. I have a habit of looking to see who is watching the threads, and I hope I'm wrong, but it'll be interesting to see the posts in the morning.

Personally, if Jim is working to try to figure this thing out, my hat is off to him and I haven't been giving him enough credit.
I'll also give him this, but don't let it go to your head Jim, I have a lot of respect for people who stick with a conversation even when it gets tough, and Jim hasn't deserted this issue. That doesn't mean I agree with him, and I strongly disagree with a couple of comments he has made, but it takes spine to get in and stick with an issue when the subject isn't popular.
We've all taken our lumps on this issue, I know I have, so hopefully you'll hang in there and keep having the conversation. Anyone trying to find answers in this is someone I want to keep talking to, whether I agree with you or not.

 

[Denisebme]

Gotcha. Thank you for the water story. Very interesting and it helped me understand what you were getting at. But what I don't get is how we go from him...to no problems for an entire breeding season...to where we are now. Wouldn't those babies from the beginning of last year also have shown some sort of issues, like the ones at the end of the year?

There are a couple of things that might explain it.
First, since you lost that male soon after breeding, it could be that your infection was very limited for a while.
Second, while you don't have any known problems for quite a time span, one of two things was happening. Either you were infected, but like a lot of people you were asymptomatic, or you brought in another source of infection. Either is possible, and its quite probable consider the number of beardies you were dealing with at the time that both actually happened.
The rest of it is just the course of the virus. If the numbers hold true, I think we can say with a degree of certainty that most dragons show no symptoms at all from this virus. Even in hatchlings where you have a high clutch mortality rate, you'll have some that are absolutely perfect outside of their exposure to AV and others that are sickly from the beginning.

 

[shadi11]

I wondered if you were the same person that was at RepticZone.

Jamie

That would be me..

 

[whiskersmom]

Seeing as this thread has gone back to AV and not so much about inbreeding I have a question/comment.
IF there is/was major dieoff due to AV why would people not come forward and bring it to everyones attention? I know you will all say that people don't want to be attacked but if 20-30 came forward with proof who could attack?
This is being put here as a neutral question/statement. Its not directed at anyone.
I have only seen two people come forward with dieoff. I'm just wondering why?

JimD, I'm not a breeder at all. Just a hobbyist with only three dragons. I don't know alot of breeders, in fact, I have only spoken with maybe five. Out of that five are Wendy, Tere and Denise. There are two more that I consider friends that had a good little business going with their breedings but they have now disappeared. They've closed up shop and will no longer breed. Why? Because they have the virus in their stock. They won't come here to discuss it, they've seen how the others were crucified and they can't see the point in doing that to themselves. And I can't say that I blame them....they have jobs and families that they have to attend to, trying to convince people that these other [bigger] breeders have a not-so-hidden agenda when they say 'Don't worry about it, all dragons have it' is too big of a responsibility for them. Especially when they are the heads of their families and they have human mouths to feed.
Just look at the numbers....out of the five I know, three admitted to virus issues and is still having to explain themselves. Then we have the two. Who can blame them for not coming here?
I'm on quite a few forums and I read alot. I've watched the number of breeders (not the big scale ones, but the smaller ones) just dwindle. Me and Shadi11 was just talking about this the other day....it's like they all disappeared. We don't even see them posting on the boards anymore. They are scared. And for the most part they are hobby breeders, which are now thinking that all of this crap isn't worth what used to be a pleasurable hobby.
Again, I ask you, who can blame them.
I know my mind has changed. I will not breed. I will not take a chance on bringing little AV positive babies into this world and then possibly have to go through this inquisition. I'm sorry, it's just not worth it.
Believe me Jim, they're out there. They're just not going to put themselves through what Wendy, Tere and Denise have been through. When it's easier to just close up shop.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Jamie-

I hate to do this after things were going along so nicely, but here goes.

For whatever reason, I didn't see this post when you made it. It was brought to my attention and I was asked how could I even speak to you after you said this. I wasn't aware it was said. Would you like to explain what you were insinuating here?

Were you just saying that you're not having problems because your husbandry is superior to that of EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing Adeno symptoms, and that if you slacked off on husbandry the way EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's experiencing those symptoms obviously has, that maybe you would see those same symptoms?

Are you at all aware of how many people this would offend, not just Wendy and I, and how if that's what you're saying that with this one comment you proved exactly what I said earlier, not to mention that you, too, think that you're above it all? Sounds like someone else we know.

This was not directed at you or anyone else in particular. This was is in response to the many who claim that adeno symptoms are aggravated by husbandry practices. To me it seems kind of presumtious to say that adeno symptoms would come out more if the husbandry is not perfect. I mean...who's to say that it was not problems from the husbandry? I think it is a viciuous circle of reasoning.

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

This was not directed at you or anyone else in particular. This was is in response to the many who claim that adeno symptoms are aggravated by husbandry practices. To me it seems kind of presumtious to say that adeno symptoms would come out more if the husbandry is not perfect. I mean...who's to say that it was not problems from the husbandry? I think it is a viciuous circle of reasoning.

Jamie

Sorry...vicious - I slept all night and still can't spell, lol.

Seriously though - I was not thinking about you or denise when I wrote that. I was not trying to be offensive, well- maybe a little bit to puppytoes, lol. Sarcastic about the issue, yes - biting back just like everyone else here does when pushed far enough. I don't see how anything that I said was any worse that some of the things that have been said to me the last couple of days. If you don't want to talk to me anymore, that is your choice.

Jamie

 

[whiskersmom]

This has been asked before and I think it's relevant to ask again, but this time I hope it's answered.
Explain your husbandry? Since you've not experienced any problems, please describe your husbandry to us so that it can be known if what they are doing is wrong or not.

You see, I have a female that started laying infertiles at the age of 9 mos. She has layed 3 in all. She doesn't do it in the normal time frame, in fact, it took 2 solid months for her to lay from the first clutch to the second.
She's been tested by the EM method and it came back negative but we all know that means nothing.
I have a feeling she's positive.
I have posted her enclosure all over the forums as I'm very proud of what my husband has created. I spend lots of money, time and effort on my vivs. All dragons are on slate that is sterilized every two weeks with a steamer. I use Mega Ray MVB. Temps are 105 basking, 90ish ambient and 80 to 85 cool side. I buy their feeders from a breeder and their greens and veggies are clean. They are bathed every other day. They get pure sunshine at least 3 days a week. Each dragon has all of their own equipment, that is never used by the other dragons. I hold them in their own little blankets so that they are not up against my clothing, just in case one is positive. If I've left something out, tell me. If I'm doing something wrong, PLEASE tell me. But I believe my girl is starting to show symptoms and testing in the very new future will show this either way.
In the mean time, could you please list for us what correct husbandry is. And maybe we can put this issue to rest, once and for all.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Jaime, you have to remember that there are several breeders/people who are adamant that it was our husbandry that caused the adeno to kill off babies. So, when you made that comment, I certainly considered that it could be directed at Tere and myself. I also hoped that you meant something else by it. I am glad that is the case. Sometimes it is hard to decipher what is truly meant by the written word. Facial expression and intonation add a lot to language. Of course, we always have our little smiley faces to help us out!

 

[Valley Dragons]

This has been asked before and I think it's relevant to ask again, but this time I hope it's answered.
Explain your husbandry? Since you've not experienced any problems, please describe your husbandry to us so that it can be known if what they are doing is wrong or not.

You see, I have a female that started laying infertiles at the age of 9 mos. She has layed 3 in all. She doesn't do it in the normal time frame, in fact, it took 2 solid months for her to lay from the first clutch to the second.
She's been tested by the EM method and it came back negative but we all know that means nothing.
I have a feeling she's positive.
I have posted her enclosure all over the forums as I'm very proud of what my husband has created. I spend lots of money, time and effort on my vivs. All dragons are on slate that is sterilized every two weeks with a steamer. I use Mega Ray MVB. Temps are 105 basking, 90ish ambient and 80 to 85 cool side. I buy their feeders from a breeder and their greens and veggies are clean. They are bathed every other day. They get pure sunshine at least 3 days a week. Each dragon has all of their own equipment, that is never used by the other dragons. I hold them in their own little blankets so that they are not up against my clothing, just in case one is positive. If I've left something out, tell me. If I'm doing something wrong, PLEASE tell me. But I believe my girl is starting to show symptoms and testing in the very new future will show this either way.
In the mean time, could you please list for us what correct husbandry is. And maybe we can put this issue to rest, once and for all.

I have no idea what is considered "correct" husbandry. I think we all do things differently. I know what I do works for the time being. Maybe my dragons are all positive, and what I am doing works particularly well for them so that they have shown no symptoms. Or maybe they are all negative, so I could do pretty much anything within reason and they would still be healthy.
Or maybe adeno is not the big issue that it is being made out to be and husbandry does not affect the expression of the virus to much degree. I don't know. If you truly would like to know my husbandry practices, I am happy to share.

Jamie

 

[whiskersmom]

Valley Dragons wrote:

I mean...who's to say that it was not problems from the husbandry? I think it is a viciuous circle of reasoning.

Ok, I can give you that....so instead of just wondering, lets brainstorm this and see if we're all doing it right or wrong.
Please, let's discuss husbandry practices.

 

[whiskersmom]

If you truly would like to know my husbandry practices, I am happy to share

Ok!

 

[Valley Dragons]

Jaime, you have to remember that there are several breeders/people who are adamant that it was our husbandry that caused the adeno to kill off babies. So, when you made that comment, I certainly considered that it could be directed at Tere and myself. I also hoped that you meant something else by it. I am glad that is the case. Sometimes it is hard to decipher what is truly meant by the written word. Facial expression and intonation add a lot to language. Of course, we always have our little smiley faces to help us out!

I totally agree. I am sure that I have misinterpreted comments that were made in my direction. I am really not that awful of a person!

 

[Valley Dragons]

Ok!

Okay, lol, give me a minute to get it typed out. It's still early for me.

 

[whiskersmom]

I totally agree. I am sure that I have misinterpreted comments that were made in my direction. I am really not that awful of a person!

This is a passionate debate made by people who are passionate about their animals. There's bound to be some hurt feelings from time to time but it doesn't mean it can't be worked out.
I'm sure you believe in what you are debating, just like the rest of us.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Sorry...vicious - I slept all night and still can't spell, lol.

Seriously though - I was not thinking about you or denise when I wrote that. I was not trying to be offensive, well- maybe a little bit to puppytoes, lol. Sarcastic about the issue, yes - biting back just like everyone else here does when pushed far enough. I don't see how anything that I said was any worse that some of the things that have been said to me the last couple of days. If you don't want to talk to me anymore, that is your choice.

Jamie

I do understand what you're saying, and I'm glad that that's not what you meant. No, you've not been near as cruel as some, and that, coupled with the fact that I know how passionate you are, is the reason that I would prefer to keep talking with you, not to mention that by the end of last night, it almost felt like you and I had been to counseling or something...and had made so much progress. I'm not about to screw that up, but I felt it was important to ask.

Thank you for being strong enough to answer that direct confrontation without being ugly about it. I'm not so sure I could have done the same, and I'm not so sure I did.

 

[Tere Salazar]

There are a couple of things that might explain it.
First, since you lost that male soon after breeding, it could be that your infection was very limited for a while.
Second, while you don't have any known problems for quite a time span, one of two things was happening. Either you were infected, but like a lot of people you were asymptomatic, or you brought in another source of infection. Either is possible, and its quite probable consider the number of beardies you were dealing with at the time that both actually happened.
The rest of it is just the course of the virus. If the numbers hold true, I think we can say with a degree of certainty that most dragons show no symptoms at all from this virus. Even in hatchlings where you have a high clutch mortality rate, you'll have some that are absolutely perfect outside of their exposure to AV and others that are sickly from the beginning.

This all makes so much sense to me now, and I've been thinking about it non-stop for several months now. Yes, I think you were right. I have a sneaking suspicion that the first infection was extremely limited for the reasons I've already told you about. Then, I think another source of infection was introduced after that. Knowing what I know now, the progression of the virus, the timelines, etc., it would appear I was infected not just once, but quite possibly twice by the same person, one indirectly, one very directly. How comforting is that to know?