Inbreeding

[Valley Dragons]

my husbandry

Okay, here it goes... I'll try to sum this up and not make too many dumb spelling mistakes.

Caging for adults:

I have my breeding adults caged in 36"x24"x18" melamine cages. They have a 25 watt basking bulb (regular household bulb) on one side of the cage. They have no additional UVB lighting during the spring/summer/early fall because they spend time outdoors. During the cold months they are kept under a Zoo-Med ReptiSun 5.0 UVB light. I keep my adult dragons on newpaper and tile. Temperatures on the cool side range between 80*F and 89*F, depending on the season and time of day. The basking spot is kept at 110*F - 120*F, depending on season and time of day. UVB exposure during spring/summer/early fall is 20 minutes, 3 days per week. When I am using the 5.0 lighting during the winter, it is left on for 8 hours per day.



Feeding for adults:

Both male and female dragons are fed collard, turnip, mustard greens and a variety of squash every day. They have a "salad with the works" (variety of veggies, fruits, and pellets) 3 days per week.

Males over 9 months old and non-breeding adult females are fed crickets, lobster roaches, and discoids only three days per week (in addition to their salads). A maximum of 25 bugs per serving. I supplement their diet with RepCal with D3 three days per week, and I add in Herptivite with the calcium one day per week.

Breeding females are fed crickets, lobster roaches, and discoids 5 days per week (in addition to their salads). I supplement their diet with RepCal with D3 5 days per week, and I add in Herptivite with the calcium 1 day per week. I also give my breeding females a "power shake" of sorts, twice per week. It is made up of turkey baby food, squash baby food, calcium, vitamins, and pro-biotics. This seems to really help give them a boost while laying eggs.



Additional adult care:

Adults are sprayed with water (while in their cages) daily. They are allowed to have a good, soaking bath twice per week, or as needed (like if one of them decides to be a poop artist, lol). Nails are kept trimmed as needed.




Baby caging:

After leaving the incubator, babies are kept in large, semi-clear sterilite tubs. They are kept on paper towels. They have a 60-watt basking bulb. Temperatures are kept the same as the adults. UVB lighting is used inly during the winter when the babies cannot go outside. Once the babies are a little bigger, they are upgraded to 3' wading pools. Temps are the same. UVB exposure for the babies is 20 minutes, 5 days per week. UVB exposure during winter is 10 hours of lights, 5.0 - 10.0, depending on what cage they are in.




Baby Feeding:

Babies are fed appropriately sized crickets/lobster roaches twice per day. I feed them as much as they will eat. They are also fed finely chopped greens and squash daily, and a "salad with the works" twice per week. I supplement daily with RepCal with D3, and Herptivite 2x per week.



Additional baby care:

Babies are sprayed 2-3 times per day. They are bathed 1-2 times per week.



Cleaning:

I use a 1:3 ratio of vinegar to water to do regular cleaning. I hate the fumes from bleach, and I don't think it is good for the dragons either. If I HAVE to use bleach, I use a 10% solution, and rinse throughly afterward. Baby cages
are cleaned daily, and adult cages are cleaned as needed.



Okay...I think that is everything. Let me know if you have any questions, or if I forgot to mention something. I'd love to hear everyone else's husbandry practices too. I think it is good for us to try to learn from each other!

Jamie

 

[Tere Salazar]

Thanks, Sherri and Jamie.

I don't have much time today, so I'm trying to still share information...on a tight schedule. I follow, to the letter, the husbandry detailed on the care sheet on our website. There are several parts where more than one option is presented, such as MVB or Reptisun 10.0s. I use Reptisun 10.0s. It's been a long time since I looked at our care sheet, so hopefully I'm remembering right.

The only thing I think isn't on there is cleaning/sanitizing. We have, in the past, kept our dragons on sand, but they are all now on ceramic tiles. The enclosures are spot cleaned with each poo with Clorox or Lysol wipes, then Chlorhexadine and the floors are wiped down each night with Clorox or Lysol wipes, then Chlorhexadine. Each weekend, all the tiles are removed from each enclosure and run through the dishwashwer with a bleach detergent and the heat cycle on. The inside of each enclosure is then wiped down with bleach and rinsed, then re-cleaned with Chlorhexadine to help the bleach smell go away faster.

I'm sure that if you have any other questions, you'll let me know!

 

[JimD]

How about everyone going and reading Alassondros thread aboutt the silkbacks. A lot of new and proper info there.


Jim.

 

[whiskersmom]

Thanks Jaime and Tere,
I do see some differences in our husbandry, but I wouldn't think it would be enough to hurt them.
Mine live in 5.5x2.5's and a 150 gallon. I use my MVB's all year round (and I should add that I neglected to say that in one of my enclosures I use a Reptisun 10 - 6" away, not a MVB) even though in the summer they get outside time. I figure they can go to the other side of the enclosure and hide from it if they don't want to be in it any longer.
I feed mine the a salad with 3 greens and 3 veggies daily. I try to go light on the squash, it can be fattening.
I also feed my adult male 3 days a week but I only feed worms (supers, horns and butters), my female is fed daily although she is over a year old. She recently layed a clutch of eggs.

As for the cleaning, I'm really obsessive when it comes to rinsing...I never think I do it thoroughly so I just use steam.
Everything else looks about the same as your twos. And what little differences, I can't see that making a difference.

Maybe if someone else will list theirs or can point out where we are going wrong or doing different?

 

[Valley Dragons]

From other people that I have talked to, or read about, I've noticed a pretty big difference concering the way that I clean verses the way that many others clean. Now this is totally out in left field, and nothing more than a possible theory...but, I wonder if too much cleaning could have a negative effect on a dragon's ability to fight disease. Many breeders/pet owners clean with bleach or other harsh chemicals, virtually wiping out all the bacteria and parasites. If a baby dragon has lived in a mostly sterile enviroment all it's life, (which the typical captive environment would be if regulary cleaned) then how would it build up it's immune system? And do mother dragons pass any kind of immunity down to their offspring, as do dogs, cats, and humans? And if she has lived her life in a semi-sterile environment, would this have a negative effect on her ability to pass down antibodies to her babies? I know that studies have linked allergies and immune system problems in human children to living in the modern sterile environment. I wonder what effect this same scenario is having on bearded dragons. I keep my cages clean - but I can't say that I eliminate bacteria. And I also add in good bacteria to their diet. I will definitely be keeping records, so that maybe we can see if this makes any difference.

There are so many problems with captive dragons. We can't pinpoint one single things as the cause. We can't blame adeno alone, husbandry alone, inbreeding alone. There are many other subtle things (like what I mentioned aove) that could also be taking a toll on our dragon's health. I would just like to see everyone put their heads together on this and start thinking outside the box, beyond the obvious things. If we work together, and share our knowlege in an open-minded manner, we can better the health of the species!

Jamie

 

[Valley Dragons]

How about everyone going and reading Alassondros thread aboutt the silkbacks. A lot of new and proper info there.


Jim.

Been there, done that! It's a great post!

Jamie

 

[JimD]

Clears up a lot of things that people didnt understand before. It also clears up why certain people thought that Dachiu was doing something wrong in their caring of their silkback.
I guess there can't be any more reading between the lines on the care of the silkback.

Jim.

 

[whiskersmom]

And I also add in good bacteria to their diet.

Have you tried the Salad Topper from www.cricketfood.com
It has some majorly good stuff in it that also has probiotics added to it. I use it every day.

As for the cleaning, that would make sense, if kept in a sterile environment and then introduced to a non sterile environment. I think spot cleaning their daily messes is important with periodic deep cleaning equally important.
While it does make sense, I can't see any of our viv's being sterile no matter how well we clean. Unless, we have them in a bubble???

 

[whiskersmom]

Clears up a lot of things that people didnt understand before. It also clears up why certain people thought that Dachiu was doing something wrong in their caring of their silkback.
I guess there can't be any more reading between the lines on the care of the silkback.

Jim.

WHAT???? Maybe I read a different site....didn't he basically say the same things he said here? Where did he clear it up at.
If I missed it, I apologize but I just didn't see any mind blowing clarification with his "new and improved" site.

 

[shadi11]

In my house. The dragons for the most part are in 4x2x2 melamine tanks.
I have one housed in a 36x24 glass enclosure.
There a 2 on slate. the rest on paper towel.

They are fed salads daily. Normally collard, endive and squash. I mix up between kale and mustard greens.

They as all adults now get feeders 3x a week. usually no more than 40 feeders in that time with the exception of a couple of my smaller dragons. Feeders consist of Dubia roaches, supers, and hornworms with occassional butterworms.

Lighting. everyone has a basking temp of 102-107 cool side from 78-85 depending on time of year. Uvb is reptisun 10.0 4-6 inches from the dragons.

Suppliments vary on a couple dragons. on one she doesnt get multivitamin suppliments. and doesnt get rep cal with d3. she gets pure calcium.
The rest of the dragons get 2 suppliments of pure calcium one of rep cal with d3 and one herpitive. The one I cant give herpitive she gets a b complex dose weekly.

Cleaning. I clean as needed for my adults. One messy dragon means his home is cleaned daily because greens are everywhere. But other than a spot cleaning if theres poop. usually with a novalsan mix or clorox wipes. I used to use a vinegar and water mix as well. As I am allergic to bleach. I recently switched to using a cleaner called odo-ban. its been working well for the regular breakdown cleanings.

baths are done 2-3 times a week at minimum to make sure hydration levels stay up.
I screen their poop usually on a weekly basis to make sure I am good on paraistes and also they get weekly weigh ins.
I think I covered it all now

 

[shadi11]

forgot something..

I use a probiotic typically on a weekly basis. I add spurlina, bee pollen and other things in to my feeder food to also boost them.

 

[Valley Dragons]

WHAT???? Maybe I read a different site....didn't he basically say the same things he said here? Where did he clear it up at.
If I missed it, I apologize but I just didn't see any mind blowing clarification with his "new and improved" site.

I think he means that it helps clear up some of the descrepancies (did I spell that right, lol?) between the husbandry/care that Allesandro gives the dragons, as opposed to what was presented on Dachiu's website. I believe that the Dachiu's husbandry is slightly different from what many others in the U.S. use, so naturally questions were raised when people thought that the slikbacks were recieving the "typical" american husbandry. I think that both Allesandro and Vicky cleared that up fairly well.

Jamie

 

[mikey]

WHAT???? Maybe I read a different site....didn't he basically say the same things he said here? Where did he clear it up at.
If I missed it, I apologize but I just didn't see any mind blowing clarification with his "new and improved" site.

I find it quite funny that you, puppy and other's have been so adament they come explain themselves further, and now that they are here, you have nothing to say?

 

[Tere Salazar]

I find it quite funny that you, puppy and other's have been so adament they come explain themselves further, and now that they are here, you have nothing to say?

Or maybe some of us have a life outside of Fauna and don't have time to screw around with it right this very minute.

Also, when we look like we are actually discussing things in decent human being terms without trying to kill each other, why would behave like this, Jean? You just can't stand it that something may be getting accomplished or what? What in the world is wrong with you?

 

[Tere Salazar]

forgot something..

I use a probiotic typically on a weekly basis. I add spurlina, bee pollen and other things in to my feeder food to also boost them.

I forgot this too. Mine get probiotic once a week, and I've got one guy that gets it every day, no matter what. I've also got one little girl that has some calcium absorption issues, so she gets liquid calcium, which seems to work better for her, for whatever reason.

 

[whiskersmom]

I have a lot to say, mikey, but you choose to ignore it. For one, why didn't he come forward with this big break through when he was asked on the other thread...you know, the one you asked to have locked?
This thread's topic is about inbreeding. Not how they care for the ones they've already created. But be that as it may, I still fail to see where the big illumination is. Why don't you enlighten us? Has their husbandry changed since Dachiu's first statement on her website, or has Alessandro's?
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if I am, tell me. Point out on his site where this is some big break thru! Please!

 

[mikey]

Or maybe some of us have a life outside of Fauna and don't have time to screw around with it right this very minute.

You, I and everyone else debating this has been pretty much living here with lower back pain from sitting so long, and computer screen cross-eyes!

Ohhhh, let them leave again, so you can say they are lurking, and afraid to come answer..OK..got it..

 

[Valley Dragons]

For one, why didn't he come forward with this big break through when he was asked on the other thread...

I think this is why...he was busy and got tired of the BS that was going on.

hy i am alessandro,
i am not disappeared, i was just away due to mu "normal" life.
when i started to see agian the forum i was a litlle bit surprised because there were lot of bad thing coming from a different way of reading and understanding things. and i am a little bit disappointed. when i was thinking to answer again then the quality of the thread went down. i decided to not answer. now as i like to be transparent i am here again

 

[whiskersmom]

Ohhhh, let them leave again, so you can say they are lurking, and afraid to come answer..OK..got it..

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Was someone here?

 

[Tere Salazar]

You, I and everyone else debating this has been pretty much living here with lower back pain from sitting so long, and computer screen cross-eyes!

Ohhhh, let them leave again, so you can say they are lurking, and afraid to come answer..OK..got it..

No, sweetheart. See here's the deal. I'm an independent contractor. I do work for a company that doesn't have to use my "services", as there are many like me. I have a project that I should have started yesterday, as it is rather large, and is due tomorrow morning, but I chose to spend the evening here and try to further some conversation with Jamie. It's not her fault and that's not what I'm insinuating. But it was important to me.

Because I didn't start this project yesterday, I don't have time to argue with you or anyone else today.

As for Vickie and Alessandro, they're still just as unethical in my eyes as they were before this big huge illuminating post they supposedly made...so what difference is fighting about it going to make? Okay...besides making you happy.

Yes, I lived on here yesterday...but now I have a paying job to tend to, which is much more important that any drama on Fauna.