Info on substrate sterilization..... please read...

[dragonluver83]

Just want to add jallenfl that I don't mean for my post to come accross as an attack on you, just merely looking at the issue from a scientific point of view

Doesnt sound like a attack on him and you made very good points, without getting somewhat emotional. But as you can see Rich is not to thrilled about this thread and i think i rather stay outta his way. So i am outta here!

 

[deborahbroadus]

I CAN PROMISE YOU, YOU ARE NO MORE WELCOME OVER HERE THAN WHAT YOU WERE ON BEARDED DRAGON DOT ORG.

EXCUSE ME?? I don't think anyone appointed you spokesperson?


oooops..I'm outtie!

 

[WebSlave]

I CAN PROMISE YOU, YOU ARE NO MORE WELCOME OVER HERE THAN WHAT YOU WERE ON BEARDED DRAGON DOT ORG.

Sorry, I can't leave this comment unchallenged...

Sorry, fella, but that is NOT your call here. I have asked the moderators to keep a sharp eye out for anyone who appears to be attempting to make this site unpleasant for any other members, and to crack down HARD on this problem.

So to put it bluntly, members who take it upon themselves to tell others that they are not welcome on this site, or attempt to make them FEEL that way, are themselves NOT WELCOME here. So I strongly suggest you take a step back with this sort of attitude.

 

[jallenfl]

jallenfl,

Mate very intersting i can see that you are quite passionate in what youn are trying to convey. One thing though (and this is comming from a fellow man with a background in science), you have stated that there are both harmful and benificial micro-organisms in the soil (accepted). You have also stated that you do not own bearded dragons, which i would assume therefore have no first hand experience in their husbandry or breeding. So with your lack of experience you can understand how these guys would feel when you talk to them about their practices.

Now to my point that i want to make.

Is there any concrete evidence beyond hypothetical conclusions and statistical speculations that using soil as a lay medium affects the life spans of pagona vitticep hatchlings?
As a fellow man of science you would understand that if you can not provide me a direct reference to a paper on this exact subject that your points from a scientific point of view are just hypothesis and suppositions.

Pagona vitticeps as a species have been around for a very long time as most most people would now that eany current species of ecotherms on the planet have been in their evolutionary form for at least a million years. Therefore this would mean that there has been a symbiotic (or sometimes not) relationship between the micro-organisms found naturally in their environment as whats within them. This would lead me to beleive that most (not all) harmfull micro-organisms within the lay medium would be easily counteracted by the specimens immune system. Even as a hatching as these are past through from the parents.

In order for your points toi be accepted and solidified you would need to create a viral map of pagona vitticeps in captivity and cross reference that with bacterial mapping from the most common soils used in reptile husbandry (again without this it is just merely speculations).


Francis Lapuz
B.App.Sci Scientific Imaging, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Victoria, Australia.
Image Analyst Insurance Australia Group Melbourne Vic Australia

It is not an attack at all and you make good points so I will share what I can to the best of my abilities. Thanks Rich

As I am sure I can learn from you as well as teach to you. Hopefully that is. My Father always told me that an ELDER has forgotten in his life time more than I know. This is a true statement and very much how I look at things.

Hey Rich,

I stated in one of my post about 2 pages back that I do breed the dragons. I currently have over 300 dragons in my possession ranging from sub-adults to breeders. Also have a lot going on in my incubation chamber also as well as 111 hatchlings jumping around right now, as they see me coming with there chow. Many of these I have had since I was much younger. Adult Dragons that is...

As far as running a study,,,, You being a man of science would understand that this would take the life time of several specimens never being treated for harmful bacteria or parasites and simply letting them go through the possibility of agonizing pain and much unneeded suffering till they simply perish and than Dissecting these specimens and examining every organ for the infection of possible parasites and bacteria colonies. This study would have to be done on native specimens also and unfortunately Australia is a great country in respectfully protecting what is rightfully theirs. I for one hand will not do this and if there is an extra measure to hopefully prevent this than I am going to do it and spare the dragons any unnecessary pain.

As for your points you seem to be passing on the species in the wild? If I am not correct than please elaborate.

Unfortunately the dragons we all have are the direct result of years of breeding since they were originally smuggled out of Australia as well as many other reptile species and Birds and so on. Most of these species in captivity through the last 50 years have all been selectively inbred. There is not one person who can say otherwise unless they received there Dragon over at least 30 years ago with direct lines to the smuggler. Very Unlikely as I am sure you will agree. I was not alive 30 years ago so that counts me out right away.

With such a strong regimen of inbreeding there is still much work to be done. Out-crossing a species does not fix all the inbreeding the lines had before dragons became such a popular prod in the reptile industry. This would take years to correct as in at least the 50 yrs that was doing harm with this breeding regimen. You are correct in the fact that a wild species will have a much greater chance combating these organisms with there natural immune system but I don't want to get into native specimens as this is for the captive specimens we are referring to.

Inbreeding leads to many problems I.E. Low vigor, Lack of communication skills, infertility, Bodily disfigurement, mental problems and lack of a healthy immune system. Or worse no immunities at all. This is just a few harms of inbreeding as there are millions of other problems. This is all scientifically proven as I am sure you are aware of. Some of these are self evident right out of the egg. I am not saying inbreeding is not an occurrence in the wild but it is most certainly not as heavily used as it shows in just captive color morphs today.

A breeder may not currently inbreed there lines but the damage was done before many of us were breathing/breeding.

Our specimens have nowhere near a wild specimens immunities as in the wild they combat many different organisms that we should most deff. not have in our homes or facilities. My original post was not to elaborate on the studies of this but rather how not to run the chance of having this become a problem. If people do not take measures to insure they remove what they can not see it will get much worse in the future.

Just like in the wild species configure and adapt to there environment to insure they thrive. As well as the bacteria and parasites present.

Coccidia for example is a staple in dragons and all though most prescriptions lower the numbers they must understand that it is still present and is a resistive species.

This is most likely do to our regimen of breeding and sanitation before anyone truly understood the harm. Leading to what you said an evolutionary form (more advance than past recorded specimens whether they are more resistant to medication or reproduce more quickly to combat these medications or so on as I am sure you understand.) I do not have data to back up my conclusion but is a few species I found in soil throughout my last few years and you will see it is better to take measures to the extreme rather than hope for the best.

Coliphages
Fecal coliform
E. Coli
Cryptosporida/ Giardia
Enterococci; Fecal Streptococci
Vibrio cholerae

There are a few more bu tyou understand I am sure.

Many bacteria are harmful and if you cannot determine the product you are using is sanitary than measures must be taken to insure we are doing what we can to the best of our abilities and not trapping a species in a harmful environment.

My method insures sterility and will do no harm. Unfortunately I can not say respectfully what can or cannot happen if soil is left unsanitary.

I am only trying to help those who wish to keep a hospital level of sanitation.

Will this help the immune system? Who can really say. Will it harm there ability to form immunities? No not if they never come in contact with any harmful situations. In which they must form these immunities. Thanks for you input as I welcome it. Peace J

 

[hhmoore]

I don't keep bearded dragons, and I've barely skimmed the content here, but I tend to agree with "red ink". Your logic regarding the lack of studies doesn't fly, especially since you are talking about captive specimens throughout your diatribe. If you aren't willing to run the experiment, your hypotheses aren't proven...so you aren't even relating personal experience, let alone scientific fact.
Your findings regarding the impact of soil contaminants in horticulture is not necessarily invalidated...there just isn't any evidence that the rest of your statements coincide with that information.



Oh, and regarding this statement

as you can see Rich is not to thrilled about this thread and i think i rather stay outta his way.

I'm going to go out on a limb and answer for Rich - he isn't unhappy with this thread...he's unhappy with some of the behavior in it. There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, as long as the parties involved can participate maturely and/or professionally. There were some issues on both sides of the topic, but the topic itself is not the problem.

 

[jallenfl]

I don't keep bearded dragons, and I've barely skimmed the content here, but I tend to agree with "red ink". Your logic regarding the lack of studies doesn't fly, especially since you are talking about captive specimens throughout your diatribe. If you aren't willing to run the experiment, your hypotheses aren't proven...so you aren't even relating personal experience, let alone scientific fact.
Your findings regarding the impact of soil contaminants in horticulture is not necessarily invalidated...there just isn't any evidence that the rest of your statements coincide with that information.



Oh, and regarding this statement

I'm going to go out on a limb and answer for Rich - he isn't unhappy with this thread...he's unhappy with some of the behavior in it. There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, as long as the parties involved can participate maturely and/or professionally. There were some issues on both sides of the topic, but the topic itself is not the problem.

I hope most will look past mine as well as all others immature behavior as it is more distracting than actually learning from this post.

However I can not condone infecting one of my dragons or anyone else s to simply watch them die and to perform scalpel research in which there is enough proof it exist if you simply run a Google search.

AS far as research goes I have listed for REDINK (Rich) a few species that I have come into contact with regarding soil samples (research) and they are easily researched to see how they have a detrimental effect on not only animals but humans also. I have run fecal floats on all my dragons/snakes/dogs and cats using a Nikon az100 microscope (research) and have no occurrence of these bacteria or parasites. Is my method to blame? I can not say but I would be willing to bet on it....

This may be off subject a little but lets assume these large companies that are outsourced to farm soil have perfectly sound equipment running on hydrolic systems that do not leak. I for one own a Front-End loader and being only 5 years old has blown hydrolic lines at least 10 times it is a mess spreading all over the place depending on how bad the leak is.

Most don't consider this and by microwaving there soil they will vaporize these harmful fluids and instill a safer environment. After all the companies want money and I assure they just bag it. I have done studies in school and found oil fluids in a lot of soil. (research)

I for one don't have a septic system but lets also say these don't leak right? wrong.... and when they do it becomes a serious problem, infecting water ways which generally infect the soil they come into contact with creating a incubating situation for the bacteria and multiplying there numbers greatly.

"NEVER ASSUME
The most important thing to keep in mind when looking for sources of contamination is that bacterial testing must be done before assumptions can be made. More often than not, bacterial contamination isn't all coming from just one source, but a combination of sources. Sometimes it originates from a source that no one has considered or imagined."
(Rights for this posting belong to the University of California at Davis)

However I cannot think that local government officials would approve of me bringing home potentially deadly strains of bacteria running my own test and research while also risking contamination of local city water systems.

Beaches around the world have been found to be highly contaminated with E.Coli something to consider for those who like to use sand as it has been found to be perfect for E.Coli colonization. I hope you understand that I have done research most was done in a class room environment at the University of Florida and I don't expect you to take my word for it as I believe in a little skepticism. I however was present for these studies and was in shock and awe when just bringing in samples from my own yard. I can say I was shocked and my dragons don't play in my yard dirt at all.

However I will not throw myself into a situation and hope for the best when we already play GOD and I can control everything. I believe you will see my point here.

Here is another instance soil contaminated with E.Coli transmits to spinach and then to the host that is another thing to consider.
I know it isn't laying medium but it has been found in soil and spreads to the food growing there in. I have stopped feeding and eating spinach myself do to the unnecessary risk and I love the stuff personally.

Just a few points so you understand I am not talking out of my butt and hope people will do some searching themselves and see that my original post may have come off harsh but it is consistently correct.

Peace, J

 

[spyder79]

deleted as I dont want to argue about this persons point

 

[jallenfl]

as far as researching information with simple google searches. From what I am reading on the use of microwaves on removing harmful contaminants like hydraulic fluid and machine oils from soil, it would take temperatures of 1000C. Now I may be wrong as I have never measured the temps within my microwave but considering the time it takes to bring water to a boil in a microwave I sincerely doubt a home us microwave would be able to obtain that temperature within the soil to devoid it of contaminants.

this information was found by searching in google "use of microwaves in decontaminating soils"

Water can handle much more heat on a molecular level and it does take time to boil water.

However water will become sterile before boiling do to radiation (micro-waves).

Sorry Spyder,

I just looked over my post and I had a brain fart while typing. Leaving out valuable info. Thanks for your corrections. In cases where soil is contaminated with petroleum/oil substances it may be necc. to wash with a detergent such as Dawn/Palmolive.

These detergents are used in oceanic oil spills to clean the animals who are subsequently involved. It has been proven to be harmless to them unless ingested causing diarrhea and burning of the eyes if exposed. Not to important when they could be saved with this method.

This soil would be a dead give away for petroleum fluids in the sense it would reek to actually need detergent to help. I have not come into contact with soil prepackaged that actually had a strong odor of oil but it has been found in small amounts in class and does have harmful side effects. You will also need to heat the soil for 10/20 minutes to vaporize these fluids completely as many micros very in power. This is in the case of severe contamination.

Sorry for getting of subject. We aren't saving Seals, Penguins and Birds here. As far as temps. a microwave easily hits 100c (Celsius) inside the object heated. "on average" this temp along with radiation will neutralize most compounds found in almost anything. (you must remember a microwave heats using radiation rather than conventional heat like a gas range or oven.)

Do not put a thermometer in your microwave especially mercury based it will sky rocket off its reading in a few seconds and than explode. Electronic models die instantly. Some argue the temp in a microwave is 0c (AS WHEN YOU OPEN THE DOOR THE AIR INSIDE IS AT AROUND ROOM TEMP) However the temp I have given is off of testing several different objects once they are removed.

Given your microwave has an evacuation fan and is not as old as my grandmothers original model, you will be fine. However if you do not have an efficient microwave for this purpose you will need to add an activated carbon dust or chunk form in a separate dish to the microwave aside from the dish used to heat the soil to effectively absorb the harmful compounds. (Activated Carbon is the most absorbent material known to man as far as scents and gases are concerned.)

With today's modern models you can simply put your microwave in the garage or outside for this purpose as these gasses can cause illness to you if inhaled while being evacuated by the fan on your microwave.

Hope this helps....

Peace, J

 

[jallenfl]

deleted as I dont want to argue about this persons point

Didn't argue, I stated that I screwed up and missed some points as this is a large topic to cover all possible avenues. As my mind thinks of one thing I often miss good points do to tripping over my own thoughts....It is a lot of info and any questions and controversy is welcome shoot I am open to learning anything that can have better results teach me something....

Only gave the info I missed However I quoted you so you don't have to retype your post. It did not come off as an argument it was very well stated info/questions.

Oh and I am not in the mood to argue anymore. Yesterday I became heated because of the closed minds attacking me off of one lousy line I seemed rude in. From now on I am ignoring it and only posting my info. You can choose to benefit individually or remain silent and content in previous methods.

I also understand where Dragonluver was mislead yesterday.....

Unfortunately as I stated before I did not read his post about "lay bins". However it was good info and informative (I read it this morning). Sorry he misinterpreted my original post as if it was aimed at him. I meant it as a general statement. I don't feel the need to point fingers until I am forced to. I am still not pointing fingers as many things said yesterday were very much unneeded as I am sure you may agree on your part also. Or not either way you have my apology for my disrespectful behavior.

Calling you a "Squid" was in no way my right, as you do the only job most Marines respect in the Navy (SAVE LIVES) other than rides to Combat Zones. I respect you Brian just not negativity as I am sure you know that there are methods you have used beyond reasonable methods to save lives on your end. Hell I didn't think a tampon could stop a bullet wound from bleeding (a microwave for sterilization, quite different but you get the idea) so profusely until I saw it work.(SUPERS ONLY) My DOC carried them readily into combat earning him the nickname MAXI...

No arguments Brian just a far more open mind I believe which is something I am thankful for....

Peace, J

 

[bliss]

I have lots of tarantulas, and have had many of them die from the bacteria and nematodes in Peat moss from the hardware store.

I have began just recently switching all of my spiders to Eco-Earth because it is a better substrate. Holds moisture way better and doesn't create a mushroom cloud of dust when moved.

I'm not agreeing with either side on this situation. I'm just saying my personal experience with the Peat moss/soil from the hardware stores. I haven't bred dragons before (but will very soon). I say that if you have great success with your current methods then stick with what you know. But I personally will bake my laying substrate, It's what I do with my tarantulas' substrate and I haven't had a problem since beginning the oven/microwave method. My philosophy on the matter is "better safe than sorry".

 

[jallenfl]

I have lots of tarantulas, and have had many of them die from the bacteria and nematodes in Peat moss from the hardware store.

I have began just recently switching all of my spiders to Eco-Earth because it is a better substrate. Holds moisture way better and doesn't create a mushroom cloud of dust when moved.

I'm not agreeing with either side on this situation. I'm just saying my personal experience with the Peat moss/soil from the hardware stores. I haven't bred dragons before (but will very soon). I say that if you have great success with your current methods then stick with what you know. But I personally will bake my laying substrate, It's what I do with my tarantulas' substrate and I haven't had a problem since beginning the oven/microwave method. My philosophy on the matter is "better safe than sorry".

Blissfull,

I am sorry for your loss as we have also tested other substrates finding the same results, it is the best practice to be safer than sorry.

Believe it or not I had to purchase a Reverse Osmosis from Hydrologic after testing city water and finding outrageous amounts of chemicals in the water. (Chlorine, (Phosphates, Magnesium/Nutrients) and so on.)

I now even bathe my dragons in R.O. water to prevent them from directly absorbing these chemicals through there cloacal opening. Like you said better safe than sorry.

I am also currently working on a project building a Carbon Air exchange system to insure pure air is provided and excess humidity is removed as outdoors their is a constant amount of air flow to accommodate this. It has been difficult in a sense that I am now trying to regulate the temps and humidity to maintain an ambient room temp of 75f with around 15% humidity and will most likely have to purchase a thermo/humidistat timer to get it kicking properly. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Peace, J

 

[dragonluver83]

As for being scolded on BD.ORG I have requested they cancel my subscription as I have little patience for there over emotional reactions to debate.

I believe this information is in reference to lay boxes. As many would say they regularly use soil for the egg laying purposes.

And again Dragonluver, I never read that post you made. My posting was separate from any info you may have posted.

Sorry, I can't leave this comment unchallenged...

Sorry, fella, but that is NOT your call here. I have asked the moderators to keep a sharp eye out for anyone who appears to be attempting to make this site unpleasant for any other members, and to crack down HARD on this problem.

So to put it bluntly, members who take it upon themselves to tell others that they are not welcome on this site, or attempt to make them FEEL that way, are themselves NOT WELCOME here. So I strongly suggest you take a step back with this sort of attitude.

Pardon me if that is the exact way it was taken. quick explanation. This guy posted a thread that was rude and overly arrogant on info that isnt proven.
Also saying that some of should of not posted because were dont know what were talking about breeders included. As you know i started that thread for further info on lay bins. I felt that i was attacked, personally. also one said he never read my thread as the one said that thread pertained to lay boxes.
I didnt mean he wasn't welcome here, I was more on the lines as you ignorance and rudeness isnt welcome here just like on bd.org. Am I reading his post wrong? was he not ignorant an just plain rude?
It really doesnt even matter to me that this is not a proven fact (does alittle bit) it bothered me how he came on the way he did in a some what abusive manner towards other fauna member.

Oh, and regarding this statement

I'm going to go out on a limb and answer for Rich - he isn't unhappy with this thread...he's unhappy with some of the behavior in it. There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate, as long as the parties involved can participate maturely and/or professionally. There were some issues on both sides of the topic, but the topic itself is not the problem.

My apologies, i didnt mean what i typed in the way is was taken. As i explained above. It really could of been some extra helpful info (in a way) but the manner it was put out there, is probly why it went the way it did.

 

[jallenfl]

Pardon me if that is the exact way it was taken. quick explanation. This guy posted a thread that was rude and overly arrogant on info that isnt proven.
Also saying that some of should of not posted because were dont know what were talking about breeders included. As you know i started that thread for further info on lay bins. I felt that i was attacked, personally. also one said he never read my thread as the one said that thread pertained to lay boxes.
I didnt mean he wasn't welcome here, I was more on the lines as you ignorance and rudeness isnt welcome here just like on bd.org. Am I reading his post wrong? was he not ignorant an just plain rude?
It really doesnt even matter to me that this is not a proven fact (does alittle bit) it bothered me how he came on the way he did in a some what abusive manner towards other fauna member.



My apologies, i didnt mean what i typed in the way is was taken. As i explained above. It really could of been some extra helpful info (in a way) but the manner it was put out there, is probly why it went the way it did.

You are still here calling names I already owned up to the fact that my post was a little harsh in the terms of one line. Sorry you are not mature enough to read past it and are blocked by your emotion.

Please read my other post so you can be correctly informed on the research done. As far as dissecting a dragon for testing. Send me a few samples from your stock I will raise them infect them and then kill them for studies as well as letting the bacteria take there own toll and send the dragon into an agonizing death. That is obviously the proof you need. If you are not willing to do this then stop posting about research and read what has already been tested and researched. Because you are not willing to risk this right, or possibly loose money in the research of this. I on the other hand want to cause no unnecessary harm to my dragons as you can already tell.

Again my post had nothing to do with your post on lay bins. I stated in another post (several actually) that I actually just read it this morning and also stated it was good info. Possibly meaning you are not someone I am talking about.

Again I did not post this because of your thread. Read this it is the last time I post this for you.

I also believe (SALLEN87) stated it refers to lay boxes because (REDINK) misinterpreted what the post was originally about thinking that I was referring to soil in incubation, which he is very much correct is a far outdated method given our advances in breeding these days.

Again because you just don't understand I was not saying anything about your post. You also don't understand the (mods.) apparently either in the simple fact that name calling is not tolerated and you have once again continued to do so. The worst is you apologize after you continue do what they warned all of us about. I really believe there is no help for you.

In your best interest read this post and then avoid this thread in further visits to Fauna. Everyone that reads this will most likely see points from both sides but you are truly making yourself look incompetent of reading.

I do not mean it in a name calling way just that your literacy skills may be a bit outdated much as your methods seem to be.

Until you have something to post that is knowledgeable I would avoid posting on this thread. I believe if you read back over this thread you will see some points I have just made, yet you still seem to be the one crying over a situation that has obviously been past dated and left for dead.

Please stop posting unless you are willing to send me those dragons I requested for the further research that you need to sleep well at night. It will need to be hatchlings that have veterinary records showing no infection of parasite or bacteria including but not limited to Coccidia which resides in most specimens on some level. Along with that I will need the contact info for your vet. to verify this as I am not wasting money on unhealthy specimens just to turn around and reestablish infectious problems. I will need genetically sound specimens all of the same age not inbred by you but from different genetic line parents. I believe that 10 will be suitable for this project and in no way am I trying to get over on you, I have no concern in owning your dragons just not willing to kill my dragons for something I already stated in my research will certainly happen if exposed to these environments. I will send you pictures on a daily basis as well as written reports as they grow and subsequently die. I will also list all strains of bacteria and a rough idea of how many I believe to be present at time of death, and exactly how long it took to dominate and kill the host. Along with there activity levels, Feeding regimens, temps, humidity, uvb exposure and the whole deal just to reassure you. This study will be conducted at the University of Florida as I assure you my professors love these little experiments and will be truly intrigued by the chance to do this study along side me. True Lab study and results...

I imagine you are not willing to do this so just stop posting so people don't have to read your nonsense. Yes my post was harsh, one line and you still can not shut up about it.

Leave this thread taking no knowledge with you. As you cant possibly understand the level I am on with what I do. Though I have tried to better inform you I am left at a stand still do to you I.Q. level not being able to compensate for the confusion of your foot in your mouth.

J

p.s. People can read through the bull and you meant exactly what you wrote. "I assure you that you are no more welcome here than on BD.ORG." And as well stated you are making a good point of yourself, though I welcome you to post if you have anything that is worth reading rather than pointless chatter.

 

[WebSlave]

Quit with the thinly concealed barbs, please, or I will just have to ban both of you to prove I am serious about reducing that sort of crap in the discussion forums. I don't care who started it, and who is only defending themselves, and who thinks the other is arrogant.

If you want to test my resolve, then here's your chance.

 

[jallenfl]

Roger.....

 

[red ink]

jallenfl,

I totally agree with you on the whole inbreeding think weakening the gentics of the captive dragons over there. Whether or not it is totally affecting the immune system I'm sketchy about, I believe over time they would develop their own defences on the "unatural' soil being used as substrate for lay boxes.

Mainly due to:

If breeders are using soil as a laybox for captive generations and those hatchlings survive.
Those hatchlings in adulthood are them put into the breeding program, surviving to adulthood would mean it's immune syatem has dealt with the micro-organism exposure from it's embryotic stage and carried that on through adulthood.
This in turn would be passed on to the next generation.
So infact not exposing them to this would turn them into specimens that could not survive outside of a sterile environment. We would be infact creating a "boy in the buble" situation.
This would be detrimental to the captive programs you guys have over there.

So in part as you stated already the inbreeding and poor genetic would be the number one culprit to the death and poor health of dragons in captivity. Creating a situation where you are trying to solve one cause (juvenile death) by adding another factor which would inturn further add to the weaken stance of captive dragons won't hep at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It may save lots of dragons on the short term but in the long term it will cause more problems than it would fix. Let nature take it's course, if the hatchlings are too weak to survive let them go as they will only add to the problem by letting them survive and propagating the weak genetics/immunse system through the captive breeding program. Survival of the fittest do to speak.

Harsh but this is natures way and it only humans with their "advanced' sense of morals and ethics that do not follow this, everything else on the planet does. It is only us as a species that propogate the survival of the weak (not a good or bad thing just fact).

 

[jallenfl]

jallenfl,

I totally agree with you on the whole inbreeding think weakening the gentics of the captive dragons over there. Whether or not it is totally affecting the immune system I'm sketchy about, I believe over time they would develop their own defences on the "unatural' soil being used as substrate for lay boxes.

Mainly due to:

If breeders are using soil as a laybox for captive generations and those hatchlings survive.
Those hatchlings in adulthood are them put into the breeding program, surviving to adulthood would mean it's immune syatem has dealt with the micro-organism exposure from it's embryotic stage and carried that on through adulthood.
This in turn would be passed on to the next generation.
So infact not exposing them to this would turn them into specimens that could not survive outside of a sterile environment. We would be infact creating a "boy in the buble" situation.
This would be detrimental to the captive programs you guys have over there.

So in part as you stated already the inbreeding and poor genetic would be the number one culprit to the death and poor health of dragons in captivity. Creating a situation where you are trying to solve one cause (juvenile death) by adding another factor which would inturn further add to the weaken stance of captive dragons won't hep at all. Quite the opposite in fact. It may save lots of dragons on the short term but in the long term it will cause more problems than it would fix. Let nature take it's course, if the hatchlings are too weak to survive let them go as they will only add to the problem by letting them survive and propagating the weak genetics/immunse system through the captive breeding program. Survival of the fittest do to speak.

Harsh but this is natures way and it only humans with their "advanced' sense of morals and ethics that do not follow this, everything else on the planet does. It is only us as a species that propogate the survival of the weak (not a good or bad thing just fact).

I would agree with you 100% except I am left at a stand still in a since.

You see many dragons carry potentially harmful organisms that directly harm the immune system with little ability to ever form immunities to such problems in future cases.

By simply removing the chance right out of the egg for transferring these problems to the young we will greatly improve rate of off-spring.

Now I am not saying we should remove every harmful situation as this would surely, as you said lead to detrimental effects that would need to be corrected later. (FOR YEARS) I am only hoping to truly express the possibility of dangers and help those greatly reduce the chance of un-needed death and loss of there dragons.

Now as far as humans go I am in complete agreement and I am not trying to sound cold in this so please don't think I am some evil SOB.

Lets assume many genetic factors that we pass to offspring: First though lets consider our intelligence and the fact that our medical abilities save these lives and they usually live long and prosperous lives from the start to the end with little consequence.

If humans were in a different field and were controllably bred by a higher source than ourselves we would surely dispose of many genetic defects readily.

Diabetes for instance is a genetically inherited trait as well as something a child can develop early on from improper diet and so on (sugar balances causing spikes in insulin levels). Either way if these people were limited to breeding this factor would deff. dissipate over time. I have this problem in my family lines and don't mean to offend anyone in making my point as this is not about breeding humans but simply my way of expressing my complete understanding of where it is you are coming from.

Peace, J