Inquiry: Dachiu

[DaremoAlpha]

To the person(s) not willing to test---by not testing all your doing is lessening the amount of chances for good data collection. You never know your test could be the one where a "break through" might just happen. The more people offering to test the higher the chances for that "Eureka I found something" moment and maybe a step closer to that perfect test result everybody would really like to see.

Has anybody stopped to think about the petstores that buy from these breeders?
Ok the breeder tells the stores and thats great, but then that employee fresh out of school sells an infected dragon to an over emotional kid and his parents just trying to shut him up.... the employed not knowing anything other than the dragon has av says " this one even has av so it must be good" ---why because big chain stores push the sale. So far not terrible, kid gets a "pet" but then later decides he wants another and they breed and then shit hits the fan with deaths and all the other bad stuff.

My point is this ... Honesty is great but promoting better education is a MUST about this for the people who don't know anything more than a beardie is a great starter reptile pet.

We now know the tests are still a long way from perfect and we know there is a super high percentage of infected dragons so treat all of them as positive for selling purposes and promote continued testing and further education.

All the big names--- you don't have to like each other to be able to work with each other.

 

[Wilomn]

Does anyone have a link to this paper so I can read it? Sorry if this link has already been posted...I skimmed over the last several pages but did not see anything. Is the best method for testing mentioned in this paper? I am confused about what is actually the most accurate way to test. I have not had any problems in my colony, but if it is recommended by the "experts" that I test - then I will do the responsible thing and test. I have breeding stock from many different breeders, a couple of them are from the "big breeders" mentioned over the last few days. If anyone remembers, I won a photo contest last October, and received a beautiful dragon from Dachiu. I quarantined her for the recommended 3 months, and she has shown absolutely no health issues. I fully integrated into my colony around the first of January, and she continues to grow, eat, poop, and act normally. I've had no issues with parasites or anything else. IF adenovirus is indeed a potential killer - and I have not made up my mind what to think about this whole situation yet - then I guess I let DEATH in my front door, so to speak. I am really, really hoping that this is not the case. I am not going to attack Vicky - she provided me with a beautiful, healthy dragon. That was all I asked for at the time. I see it as MY responsibility to make sure I protect my colony, and it was MY fault that I was not fully educated about the potential concerns of this virus. I would never claim that a Dachiu dragon infected my colony - because my guess is that the virus was already here. But - here's to hoping that I am one of the lucky ones if this virus is really as bad as some people think is is. The bottom line is that we have to take this issue into our own hands - and I hate to say this - but be very discriminating about who we trust when it comes to new stock, etc. Breeders should be willing to be completely open and honest about the state of their colony. I will definitely not be buying anymore breeding stock until I understand what is going on with this virus a little better. It makes me SICK to think that I could be putting my dragons at risk. To be honest, I can't comprehend at this point how ANY colony could be free from adenovirus, based on how many dragons are sold in this country every year from colonies that are indeed infected with adeno. And to add to the confusion, I have so many questions about the actual lethality and potential complications of adeno. Are we talking about a virus that is similar to HIV - where the animal will live, maybe for years - but always be sickly and need the best of care to even survive day to day? Or are we talking about a virus similar to herpes - where the symptoms will cause minor problems in an animal that gets run-down from other issues, but the virus itself rarely causes any major complications? Maybe reading this paper will help answer some questions for me. I am considering putting something on my website, but until I have more facts I am not sure even what to say. I guess I have a few weeks to figure this out before my first babies of the season hatch. I know that I will be keeping records of everyting that goes on in my colony for now on, and I will make sure that any potential customer is fully informed of this issue. I will also encourage my customers to keep their own records of any health issue in any dragon that I produce from now on. I encourage other breeders to do the same.

Jamie

I have to disagree with you here. Whether or not it was vicki you got your dragon from, IF you had been told there was even the remotest possibility that it had AV, would you still have accepted that dragon? Or would you have said, thanks but no.

NOW, because YOU were not informed by someone who knew she had it in HER dragons and was fully aware of what it could do to YOURS, you are facing the possibility of deformed babies, stunted babies and having AV in your colony.

You may well have had it anyway, but knowing that she did and that she knew she did and sent you a dragon without informing you of that, really puts the blame, if you do have it now, squarely on vicki.

This goes the same for anyone who has gotten dragons from any breeder who knew they had AV and sold/gave dragons without informing those recieving the dragons about the liklihood of AV being present.

 

[romad119]

Definitely better to be honest and start to work on possible solutions as an industry. Stay on top and keep crowd control going. I can forsee a hysteria happening if people don't work together on this. First among dragon keepers and then others getting all panicked that it may effect X, Y, and Z that tehy breed/keep.

Its happened before and some animals can't be kept legally at all anymore due to unfounded information and resulting hysteria.

 

[Dragondad]

I have held off posting on this for a long time, the emotions of the issue seemed to have finally settled that maybe some rational discussion of the true issue can take place. Now from the way this is going to start it will sound like I am going to defend Vickie and Rob, I do not, nor do I defend the ones crying the sky is falling across the board on this issue. Those of you who have had your little feelings hurt need to step back and take a mandatory break from the keyboard.

For some who states that this thread exists for all to see in the future (specifically directed at Jim O) you need to remember all will see the total irrational aspects of your posts. And believe me you guys remind me of a group of kindergardeners fighting over who did what in the playground.

Jim O alluded to this in and earlier post but let me draw you fair comparison. We recently had a recall on Peanut Butter, does anyone here believe that Conagra should have tested for Salmonella before those jars were shipped? I will guarantee that they didnt, because by them knowing that its there leaves them open to product liablility that far exceeds the liablility they faced by the off chance the issue appeared in their product. How many of you buy frozen cookie dough? All packages will tell you that eating unbaked dough could be hazardous, but I will bet anyone that that dough is not tested for microbiological hazard. Why because your oven kills it when the dough is baked. So the disclaimer exists. Food companies have a standard that is set for issues of things in their products that can exist (very small part per total) but they still are in there. A specific is flour, you are allowed 2.5 bugs per 10,000 pounds of flour to be in your product.

The fact of life is this is the way this world runs, I see legally nothing wrong with the way that the big breeders have handled the issue of adenovirus. Now morally is a different page.

Now concerning Dachiu, can anyone plainly tell me that their breeding group is positive for adenovirus? The fact that they have dragons that are, does not tell me with certainty that there entire breeding stock is positive. They state in their disclaimer they dont test, they give a 6 week health guarantee so if buy I dragon and test it, and its positive what happens? Are the dragons healthy when you buy from Dachiu or Sandfire? Given the nature of the paper from U of F I would tend to believe that its possible that some of their stock could test neg. I believe that some will test pos. But as the paper says just because mom and/or dad have it doesnt prove the babies will!!! Now to totally pretend that this doesnt exist and hope that no one asks leaves a big gap in the ethical debate of where do you draw the line.

I will go at it from this point, Rich Z is a large well known breeder of cornsnakes, we know that there is a adenovirus common to colubrids, can it be guaranteed that every corn snake sold by Rich doesnt have the virus? (I am in no way saying he does, this is and example) he doesnt test for it? So should he, should he put a disclaimer up saying something? Bobby sells Tegu's can he guarantee to me that the Tegu he sells me doesnt have adenovirus? Maybe he should test?

Are these big breeders at fault for not testing? I dont think so, should the big breeders contribute something to the furtherance of the research of this issue. Most definately!! From the long term business standpoint it would be an investment in their future business to insure that bearded dragons continue to be a popular.

Now it seems to me that the first thing that needs to be established is does this pass from a positive mom to the egg. And the only way to do this is for people who have pos animals to continue to breed. Wes created an interesting point. Nature has a funny way of insuring survival of the fittest, what happens 5 generations down the line to this virus if all who know they have pos dragons just stop with the breeding then we will never know.

Rozann posted a picture of a beautiful dragon, healthy as a horse and a great animal. Yet that animal is from.......




Dachiu.


I guess he should just be put down now since he is one of the sick animals you all think that they are selling.

 

[Wilomn]

Michael, sometimes you just don't get it.

This is NOT a case of NOT knowing there's a bug in the works.

vicki knew. kevin knew. No doubt OTHERS knew as well.

And yet they sold WITHOUT informing the buyers.

That's the crux of the matter to me.

They lied, they cheated, the sent around the world a potentially fatal virus. All to make a buck.

That sucks and there is no other definition of it for me than that.

They knew better and did it anyway.

 

[jdm130]

Honesty, ethics, testing and disclosure................Not too much to ask in my opinion.

I agree 100% with the first two you mention. I will address the other two in a moment.

Now if you are referring to Rob and Vickie then I can tell you with out question that you get exactly that. Honesty AND ethics at the highest standards. I have had the privilege to see their facility a few times and speak with them both in person as well as over the phone on several occasions. Just to give you an example of the kind of people they are, I have a male leucistic dragon that was purchased from another large breeder. I really wanted a female but was very concerned with the possability of inbreeding. Well I did manage to find a breathtaking female leucistic dragon that I knew 100% for sure was unrelated to my male. Well we called Vickie when we were in the area and asked if we could stop bye to see what they had available. Well they had two of the whitest Leucistic/Snow babies that I have ever seen. Both were male's and I asked how much they wanted for the two of them. They told me $400. for both siblings. Then I asked if they knew the breeder that we purchased our Leucistic female from and they did. Vickie then proceeded to tell me that the babies that I was going to purchase are in fact possibly related to the female that I have. Apparently the breeder that I bought her from purchased a leucistic animal from them a few years before and chances are they are distantly related. Now, I ask you or anyone else, who would do that? The chances that these animals were related may have been a real or slight possability. Of course they could have been many generations apart, none the less, they were very honest with me and in turn lost a $400. sale. There aren't (in my opinion) to many people that would tell the entire truth and basically turn down $400. That is a big temptation for anyone IMHO. So if your looking for honesty and ethics then look no further, these people have them both! We also spoke of other breeders that we have purchased from and at no time did they ever say a single bad word about any other breedres we spoke about. Unlike this site where people go so far out of their way to try and destroy what others have devoted so much of their lives to.

Now I will address the "testing and disclosure" In my opinion it is a hell of a lot to ask! When you have close to 200 adult animals then you bet it is a lot to ask especially when we still don't know anymore today then we did in 1982 about this thing. How's this, because of the panic that many people are spreading about this mess I had the pair of leucistics that I spoke of earlier both tested. I wanted leucistic babies so bad, I took all the steps to make sure I had unrelated animals and the last thing I wanted to do was find out later that I had ADV positive animals. Anyway both animals are negative for ADV. But guess what? Out of 21 babies I lost one. He didn't eat well and was intimidated by others. He received special care from us but he perished. You know what he died from? ADV was the blame. So, how did this little guy get it? Did ADV kill him or was it stress related? Was this just a weak animal that would have never survived in the wild? Could it have been avoided? What did I do wrong? Can some of the others have it? These are the questions I am left with. I can not help but to wonder if is dormant in dragons and stress, dietary, improper husbandry, intimidation, etc. is what brings it to the surface. Anyway, that's a whole other topic.

So for me, I'm done with this crap! Until I start hearing more hard proof and dependable accurate testing methods I will never test again! I went above and beyond to confirm I had the best healthiest stock I could possibly get and they produced at least one with the virus. I will continue to breed my animals untested or until I feel I have a problem with our colony. All of our animals are healthy and I have no reason to feel that ADV is even a concern with our breeders. All this crap about false positives and or negatives and test ever few weeks, nope, sorry, not for me, I'm Done with it all and I'm done reading all these dead end bashing post's!

And I absolutely refuse to pay another cent for testing with such uncertain results. Personally I don't blame Rob and Vickie one bit for taking the stance they did. It is a real lot to ask in my opinion. The bottom line is, if you or anyone else doesn't want to buy from them then simply go buy elsewhere. But unfortunately you will loose by not getting the best stock available. By stating that their animals are not tested IS giving people a choice. They have the choice to buy from them or not to buy from them. No one is getting ripped off or having their rights taken away from them.

Really everyone should grow up a little bit! The childish behavior I have seen in the threads about ADV is really sad. Are you guys going to go on your witch hunts for every breeder out there, except for the really big ones? All this he said/she said nonsense has gotten old. Don't worry about hearing from me again on this or any other subject because I will never come back here again and will not comment on this thread again. I just wanted to let you know that there are two sides to everything and only you ignorant people can sit there and say "testing and disclosure................Not too much to ask in my opinion." Well if it's not to much to ask then why don't you pony up the cash to get all the dragons in the country tested??? See what I mean, Ignorance!
Later!

 

[Wilomn]

Bye bye jeffy, don't let the door smack you in the ass on your way out.

By the way, yours is not the first inane rant put up by a first time poster who is too pig-ignorant to understand the depth and complexity of the subject to which he has posted.

See ya, won't miss ya at all. Promise.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Jeff, it is not giving someone a choice when you say that all dragons have it, but do not feel the need to test your animals. Yes, people always have a choice to not purchase, but people who are purchasing from them do not see the whole picture, as there is not mention of the fact that Dachiu feels most dragons have it.

Well, I guess according to you, Dr. Jacobson and his colleagues are ignorant, because it is right in their document that they feel that the reccomended course is honesty, testing and that if people accept that their colony is adenovirus positive, to inform buyers of that (which is called disclosure.)

This does not have to be done in one full swoop. Breeders can plan a course of action that will allow them to test without putting them out of business. Testing the breeding pairs with eggs or babies is a good start. There has to be a starting point. Or, accept the idea that all dragons have it and educate your potential customers to that fact.

There also has to be education to the buying public. If in fact adeno positive babies require special attention to their care (husbandry, stress) then shouldn't people who are buying them be aware of this to insure the animal's continued good health?

To simply put a disclaimer that they do not test does not educate, inform or offer any benefit to potential customers, and it does not allow them to make an informed decision on whether or not to purchase a dragon from the breeder making this statement.

 

[puppytoes72]

sorry,but i have a quick OT question-how do i stop getting all these email notifications that there are replies to this post?thanks

 

[shrap]

sorry,but i have a quick OT question-how do i stop getting all these email notifications that there are replies to this post?thanks

At the top of the thread you will see a button that says "thread tools". Click on it. You will see an option that says "unsubscribe from this thread" or something to that effect. Click on it. Done.

 

[Valley Dragons]

Jeff, it is not giving someone a choice when you say that all dragons have it, but do not feel the need to test your animals. Yes, people always have a choice to not purchase, but people who are purchasing from them do not see the whole picture, as there is not mention of the fact that Dachiu feels most dragons have it.

Well, I guess according to you, Dr. Jacobson and his colleagues are ignorant, because it is right in their document that they feel that the reccomended course is honesty, testing and that if people accept that their colony is adenovirus positive, to inform buyers of that (which is called disclosure.)

This does not have to be done in one full swoop. Breeders can plan a course of action that will allow them to test without putting them out of business. Testing the breeding pairs with eggs or babies is a good start. There has to be a starting point. Or, accept the idea that all dragons have it and educate your potential customers to that fact.

There also has to be education to the buying public. If in fact adeno positive babies require special attention to their care (husbandry, stress) then shouldn't people who are buying them be aware of this to insure the animal's continued good health?

To simply put a disclaimer that they do not test does not educate, inform or offer any benefit to potential customers, and it does not allow them to make an informed decision on whether or not to purchase a dragon from the breeder making this statement.

Each breeder should plan a course of action, and make sure that potential customers are fully educated about this virus and its uncertainties, whether that particular breeder chooses to test or to not test. I also think that babies sold from known positive parents should be tracked (whenever possible) to keep tabs on growth rate, illnesses, and other issues (this is why I would think that testing would be of benefit - otherwise how would you know if you are selling positive animals. It will be hard to learn more about a virus if you do not even know which dragons carry it). This is where it will become a little more tricky - trying to get the general public to work with the breeders to start gathering a pool of information concering the life-span and health of adeno-positive dragons.

Jamie

 

[Dragondad]

Michael, sometimes you just don't get it.

This is NOT a case of NOT knowing there's a bug in the works.

vicki knew. kevin knew. No doubt OTHERS knew as well.

And yet they sold WITHOUT informing the buyers.

That's the crux of the matter to me.

They lied, they cheated, the sent around the world a potentially fatal virus. All to make a buck.

That sucks and there is no other definition of it for me than that.

They knew better and did it anyway.

Wes I do get it, I just dont think the issue is as big as your making it out to be. You used to be into dragons, did you know about the virus when you were breeding? Did you tell everyone that you sold too, shipped to be careful theres a virus out there?

I respect the world of your knowledge and your animals. But you know what I have that same respect for Dachiu. And given what I see in the paper from U of F I would buy again from them.

 

[puppytoes72]

At the top of the thread you will see a button that says "thread tools". Click on it. You will see an option that says "unsubscribe from this thread" or something to that effect. Click on it. Done.

ty so much!

 

[Stardust]

You know Mike your post would have been great if I didn't already say I bought 3 beardies from Dachiu, and that Fred has bred in another thread. Also since you saw the pic of Fred you would also read that I will not put down my dragons but keep them as pets only. This, to me, is NOT about putting down dragons that test POS.
I do not see a bashing going on in here, yes, there is some bad blood, but by no means is there bashing. I started this thread as an INQUIRY not a BAD GUY thread.
Exes, you can't live with them and you, well, can't live with 'em..


I really do not think that asking breeders to educate, properly represent the animals they sell and MAYBE even taking an active roll in getting in testing to further science and perhaps find a vaccine (I do believe that was in the paper as well) is asking too much.

 

[Wilomn]

Until just recently I had never heard of AV.

However, had I known that my animals were possible carriers I would have notified EVERYONE who got one of my babies that it was a possible carrier.

dachiu knew and didn't tell. They knew. They put people at monitary and emotional harm for money.

That sucks.

kevin did it. That sucks. Anyone who does that sucks.

So, do YOU suck too Mike? Would you sell babies out of a colony that you KNEW had AV in it without disclosing it to your buyers?

 

[mikey]

I started this thread as an INQUIRY not a BAD GUY thread.

" And we know many breeders and owners have dragons from them that are positive. There are several people posting their positive results on that list, AND their dragons are from Dachiu's... "



Excuse me if I missed the posts..In the 290+ posts has anyone definately tested postive from a dachiu dragon? One that was directly bought from them, and was the only dragon in the home ? Not one's bought from a third party or that has been exposed to other dragons in the home.

 

[Stardust]

" And we know many breeders and owners have dragons from them that are positive. There are several people posting their positive results on that list, AND their dragons are from Dachiu's... "



Excuse me if I missed the posts..In the 290+ posts has anyone definately tested postive from a dachiu dragon? One that was directly bought from them, and was the only dragon in the home ? Not one's bought from a third party or that has been exposed to other dragons in the home.

I can only speak for myself. I am hoping to get my tests done this coming week. And I did buy directly from Dachiu. Fred will be one of them He is as you can see outwardly very healthy and from Dachiu, he has been with a female not of Dachui stock. I keep good clean records and know who has come in contact with who and who has never come in contact with another beardie. All my beardies are housed seperately. I do not have a lot of beardies and am not big by any means. I have not bought a beardie in over two years and because of that I am a little hopeful, but even if they should turn out POS they will still be pets and loved in this household, just not bred.

Let me make something perfectly clear here and now. I am emotional of course because of this whole ordeal, I am not, however, in attack mode. I have been lucky as in the beardies that I have bought have been healthy and grew properly. They also have great husbandry, heat, UV ect...
The points that I have here is that if Dachiu did indeed know of this when they were selling I would have liked to be informed as a consumer in advance therefore I could make my own decisions based on what was out there at the time/is out there now about adeno.
It would also make a difference in my thinking AS A BUYER if I knew if the company that I was thinking of buying from was taking an active role in helping to find out more and get to the answers.
Actually, as my emotions are involved I am obviously upset that I was not informed but also all those people out there who will continue to buy without the choice of knowing. All prospective small business owners who might unknowingly breed and get terrible results and so on and so on....
Like I said I have been fortunate. Even if my beardies are only pets and stay that way as of now they appear healthy, and the clutches I did have were outwardly healthy. I am afraid not everyone will be as fortunate as I have been.
This is just my personal thoughts on this. I am only the buyer, smallest on the chain.

 

[Denisebme]

Vickie is right, the paper is a good read. Yes, the University of Florida states they feel that the majority of the U.S. dragon popultion has adenovirus. At this point, they are most likely correct. But, the U.S. dragon population is huge, and even a small percentage of clear animals can be a significant number. And the paper states:

"It is certainly tempting to give up and ignore this problem. At this point our best recommendation is testing and honesty, with the goal of establishing adenovirus-free colonies. If the decision is made to accept that your colony is infected, the ethical thing to do is to inform anyone accepting a lizard from your colony of the infection."

I am referring to Dachiu here because that is what this thread is about. Vickie has been talking about the release of this document for days. I am guessing that is because it does indeed state that they feel this is in the majority of the U.S. dragon population.

O.K. fair enough. It also reccomends testing, honesty and if a breeder chooses to accept that their colony is infected, they should inform people accepting (i.e. buying) dragons from their colony of the adenovirus infection.

In my opinion Vickie has failed miserably in all of these areas. She admitted she lied, has lied before and would probably lie again. She has plainly said she is not testing (even though there is some debate as to whether she is just saying that to cover her butt). If she chooses to accept that her colony is infected and chooses to not test, she needs to step up and do as Dr. Jacobson reccomends, and inform people that her colony has adenovirus in it.

Give the people purchasing your dragons the choice of whether or not to purchase an adenovirus positive dragon. It is flat out wrong to take that choice away from them. You can not reasonably expect people to accept that all dragons have adenovirus and then turn around and say it is o.k. to hide behind the veil of "we do not test." If you feel all dragons have it, then you need to step up and let the customers purchasing your dragons know that they are buying adenovirus positive dragons.

Honesty, ethics, testing and disclosure................Not too much to ask in my opinion.

If you take a step back, you'll realize that the whole reason this inquiry is here is because there was dishonest manipulation going on offline BY Vickie. If someone is willing to be THAT manipulative about someone who really has no ability to affect their business, I can't imagine they'd be any different when its an issue that could cost them money.
A lot of us use the BOI to help us determine who to do business with, when you see someone engaging in behavior that is unethical in full public view, you have a choice to do business from them or not....

 

[JimD]

Denise
Do you have any proof of that? You are accusing someone without any backing. Isn't that what was happing to you?
Being accused with no proof?

Jim.

 

[Denisebme]

Okay, I read the paper. It does help to answer many of my questions. Does anynone know the cost of the PCR testing?

Jamie

My advice would be to print the WHOLE paper and take it with you to the Vet.
The test itself will cost you anywhere from $60 to $100.